Why we don´t need a flagging system

Magos

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Yeah and what if a strong guild takes over the city and bars all other players from the city?
well in that case I think that would be a major problem and the town crier in other cities should tell ppl about it. Remember eventually you can't log out you need to travel to a town then travel back to safety alive, if you want to bring back any loot.

Say a guy gets ganked and looted on the guardzone, the PK gets away, banks the loot in town. Now the PK is standing there in town talking shit and theres nothing you can do about it. Is that a better, more immersive sandbox experience than the guy being able to group with his anti RPK friends and take revenge?
 
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ThaBadMan

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I can see your point. Personally I think many new players would probably pick up on the rules fairly quickly. You could however restrict the guards and flagging system to Morin Khur and Tindrem, and maybe the closest empire enclaves like Toxai and Meduli. Leave the rest of the world to the players.



If anything it shows how well social norms and the need to be accepted work already - even without material incentives.

The consequence of acting out, murdering, thieving etc. will be much harsher once the things you mention get into the game. So a player made justice system will be even more effective.



Nearly all "griefers" I encountered in MO1 had blue flags. Any flagging system will be circumvented and actually used against those it is supposed to protect. It was called blue blocking, not red blocking for a reason. We all know this.

I think we can draw conclusions from the current state. If only to leave more of the world to the players, and only small piece to to NPC justice.
Yes later MO had already lost its hardcore status, same could be said for the quality of the griefers.

You should remember the old time griefers, those who didnt need to reroll chars to stay blue and actually went in to grief you and not simply kill and loot then lol about it.
Tindrem griefers shouldnt even be called griefers, they where simply kindergarden bullies tbh.
 

ThaBadMan

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That is my point and why I made this thread. According to everyones logic it should, it is not.

People have been peddling all kinds of theoriesabout how terrible a player run justice system would be. The reality is different. That´s what this experiment shows.
But your experiment although I like your desired result, is worthless based on the fact that nothing in game is for real. Politics not there, loyalty not there, gain, risk vs reward, consequences, I mean theres no factors to disrupt your currently fantasy sandcastle, I promise once one or more of these factors come into play this awesome player ran justice system of yours is gone. Once some of the vultures taste blood or gets the chance on gains, the artificial system you thought great evaporizes.

Ive played the A-PK knight role enough to know 90% of players will backstab you as soon as they can.
 

Piet

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And yours also lacks any thought behind your random feelings and crappy idea
 

Eldrath

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But your experiment although I like your desired result, is worthless based on the fact that nothing in game is for real. Politics not there, loyalty not there, gain, risk vs reward, consequences, I mean theres no factors to disrupt your currently fantasy sandcastle, I promise once one or more of these factors come into play this awesome player ran justice system of yours is gone. Once some of the vultures taste blood or gets the chance on gains, the artificial system you thought great evaporizes.

Ive played the A-PK knight role enough to know 90% of players will backstab you as soon as they can.
I´ve played A-PK as long as I´ve played with Zeal. I know the feeling of betrayal and hopelessness.

Every time the flagging system was in the way. I can´t remember a single instance where it helped those that wanted to fullfill the "knight" role. It´s a bit of code and can´t hold moral value.

I know what I´m about. As I said above, what we see currently does give valueable information and SV should take it seriously. Unless the "flagging" system they are planning is very hands off I can predict now that it will be abused and used against those that want to be A-PK. Then we will have the same bitching, moaning and complaining we had the past 10 years. The solution is to not rely on flawed bit of code.

@Piet
If you want to be taken seriously maybe don´t double post one liners insulting people. My thoughts are pretty clear, you just happen to disagree with them.
 

ThaBadMan

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I´ve played A-PK as long as I´ve played with Zeal. I know the feeling of betrayal and hopelessness.

Every time the flagging system was in the way. I can´t remember a single instance where it helped those that wanted to fullfill the "knight" role. It´s a bit of code and can´t hold moral value.

I know what I´m about. As I said above, what we see currently does give valueable information and SV should take it seriously. Unless the "flagging" system they are planning is very hands off I can predict now that it will be abused and used against those that want to be A-PK. Then we will have the same bitching, moaning and complaining we had the past 10 years. The solution is to not rely on flawed bit of code.

@Piet
If you want to be taken seriously maybe don´t double post one liners insulting people. My thoughts are pretty clear, you just happen to disagree with them.
It gives information we already knew and no its not valuable.

Throw into it loyalty and politics, and all your valuable information is now worthless junk.
Loyalty and politics are the two imo biggest factors regarding player bahaviour. Throw in value and all that valuable information is not even worthless junk anymore but below that.
 

Eldrath

Well-known member
It gives information we already knew and no its not valuable.

Throw into it loyalty and politics, and all your valuable information is now worthless junk.
Loyalty and politics are the two imo biggest factors regarding player bahaviour. Throw in value and all that valuable information is not even worthless junk anymore but below that.
Na, I think those things are very much in there.

What would be a worthwhil experiment in your opinion? Or have you just given up?
 

Piet

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I´ve played A-PK as long as I´ve played with Zeal. I know the feeling of betrayal and hopelessness.

Every time the flagging system was in the way. I can´t remember a single instance where it helped those that wanted to fullfill the "knight" role. It´s a bit of code and can´t hold moral value.

I know what I´m about. As I said above, what we see currently does give valueable information and SV should take it seriously. Unless the "flagging" system they are planning is very hands off I can predict now that it will be abused and used against those that want to be A-PK. Then we will have the same bitching, moaning and complaining we had the past 10 years. The solution is to not rely on flawed bit of code.

@Piet
If you want to be taken seriously maybe don´t double post one liners insulting people. My thoughts are pretty clear, you just happen to disagree with them.
I read the whole thread. You are bringing up a new idea, you are not giving any firm reasoning other than you think it would work and then you are pushing the burden of proof off onto people who oppose your idea. When they stupidly do try to oppose your idea and take the burden of proof, you shut them down with emotion instead of fact. I am not just blowing you off I am not just insulting I am stating what is happening in your thread. The flagging system isn't perfect, far from it that is true. They also said they are going to change it. But guards work off of a system and no guards is stupid. If you have a good idea for a new system I am more than down for that. Unless I missed something though there is no resolution you provided. From what it sounds they are going to a reputation system instead of a flag system if that helps.
 

ThaBadMan

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Na, I think those things are very much in there.

What would be a worthwhil experiment in your opinion? Or have you just given up?
Flagging as in flag based does not work. We have enough experience to prove that from 10 years of MO.

Now it could work with a local type reputation system or simply a reputation based system with no flags.

I am more for player options. So I would like a player to be able to choose his own "flag" and could lose it based on actions.
Say a bandit player would probably want to play as perma grey, a murderer perma red, etc.
But I cant say for sure which would be the best to go with.

And as you say everything can be abused.
Besides I am a A-PK turned PK, dont think you want my suggestions in these matters.
 
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Eldrath

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@Piet
My line of reasoning is pretty clear. We have something that works now. Build on that instead of going back to something that did not work for 10 years.

I´m obviously gonna wait and see what SV does, but to ignore the current data would be pretty reckless. We will never again be in a position where we see how the game plays out without any kind of artificial justice system. It might not be the quality of data we want, but it´s the only we have.

@ThaBadMan
The problem always arises when players interact with a static system (guards, reputation assigned by the game) because that will be gamed. It requires a lot more energy to truly manipulate players.

Depending on what SV goes with I can see your idea working within that system. It will still be inferior to a true sandbox.
 
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Piet

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@Piet
My line of reasoning is pretty clear. We have something that works now. Build on that instead of going back to something that did not work for 10 years.

I´m obviously gonna wait and see what SV does, but to ignore the current data would be pretty reckless. We will never again be in a position where we see how the game plays out without any kind of artificial justice system. It might not be the quality of data we want, but it´s the only we have.

@ThaBadMan
The problem always arises when players interact with a static system (guards, reputation assigned by the game) because that will be gamed. It requires a lot more energy to truly manipulate players.

Depending on what SV goes with I can see your idea working within that system. It will still be inferior to a true sandbox.
The data is clearly flawed since there is no incentive to kill crafters not protected by guards... and even with no incentive I literally just yesterday which is one of the only times logging in got killed while crafting and then spawn camped so if anything the data shows the opposite of what you're saying. Starting off with no guards would mean starting just like MO1 started and ending the way MO1 ended way faster then MO1 did. We do have data, we do have proof. It's not our job to point it out it's yours. This is no negative to you this is not personal, I like you, but this is how discussions work.
 

Eldrath

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The data is clearly flawed since there is no incentive to kill crafters not protected by guards... and even with no incentive I literally just yesterday which is one of the only times logging in got killed while crafting and then spawn camped so if anything the data shows the opposite of what you're saying. Starting off with no guards would mean starting just like MO1 started and ending the way MO1 ended way faster then MO1 did. We do have data, we do have proof. It's not our job to point it out it's yours. This is no negative to you this is not personal, I like you, but this is how discussions work.
I explained my experience in the first post. That has been pretty consistent in Fabernum, Bakti and Meduli throughout the alpha. I´m obviously not claiming that everyone experiences exactly the same at all times but I have a good amount of hours to look back on. The only people who can truly take a birds eye view is SV.

There seems to be a incentive to kill to kill crafters, gatherers or duelers, because it is happening all the time. People around you will react to it. Again I have switched names, I have ganked, looted etc. and the reaction were vastly different from my sitting at the campfire on Eldrath talking about the gods.

You are starting a A-PK guild or continue one. I´m predicting that eventually any reputation system SV implements will work against you and eventually lead to you A. not being able/wanting to do anything or B. stop being A-PK. Static systems can´t capture justice.
 

Piet

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I explained my experience in the first post. That has been pretty consistent in Fabernum, Bakti and Meduli throughout the alpha. I´m obviously not claiming that everyone experiences exactly the same at all times but I have a good amount of hours to look back on. The only people who can truly take a birds eye view is SV.

There seems to be a incentive to kill to kill crafters, gatherers or duelers, because it is happening all the time. People around you will react to it. Again I have switched names, I have ganked, looted etc. and the reaction were vastly different from my sitting at the campfire on Eldrath talking about the gods.

You are starting a A-PK guild or continue one. I´m predicting that eventually any reputation system SV implements will work against you and eventually lead to you A. not being able/wanting to do anything or B. stop being A-PK. Static systems can´t capture justice.
Still no solution or proof. A flawed system is better than no system and they are as I stated going to change it. The only one who benefits from what you are saying is killers and only in the short term. When everyone leaves from being priest camped the killers will leave too. Again just like MO1. If the old system didn't make me A not able or wanting to do anything or B stop being ARPK (I am not APK) the new one surely won't. You are making unfounded claims based on emotion and no solution in general much less a viable one.
 

Rorry

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Mob justice is injust. No crime is necessary for mob justice. 1day in Bakti the mob just decided that the penalty for being a character from a dwarf race warranted death. People I had dueled around with the day before killed me as I was fighting on their side against an outside group while yelling kill all dwarves etc. It is lunacy to state that the community will police themselves.
 

Godkin Veratas

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No flags means the community can enforce laws as often and for as long as they need to be enforced without interference from the game mechanics. Only a griefer or very confused carebear would argue against this.
 

Piet

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No flags means the community can enforce laws as often and for as long as they need to be enforced without interference from the game mechanics. Only a griefer or very confused carebear would argue against this.
Or any logical person especially if they witnessed MO1 steam release where exactly what you're saying happened and even with the guards in town the majority of people were priest camped and hunted mercilessly for no reason. ;) Good try on the underhanded emotional attack again though.
 
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Godkin Veratas

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Or any logical person especially if they witnessed MO1 steam release where exactly what you're saying happened and even with the guards in town the majority of people were priest camped and hunted mercilessly for no reason. ;) Good try on the underhanded emotional attack again though.

con•fu•sion kən-fyoo͞′zhən


Believing guards and flags make Nave safer while also citing a marathon bloodbath of new players that featured both flags and guards.
 

Piet

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con•fu•sion kən-fyoo͞′zhən


Believing guards and flags make Nave safer while also citing a marathon bloodbath of new players that featured both flags and guards.
LOL they solved the issue.... the issue was there was no guards where the players were being camped. They made a new flag system and haven and solved it with flags and guards.