Why we don´t need a flagging system

Eldrath

Well-known member
Bakti.

After reflekting my recent experiences when playing I found that the current state works rather well.

There are unspoken rules, which when broken lead to retalitation.

There is forgiveness for those that accept the peace.

It is even more interesting that this works even with unlimited resources and no reserves system.

From my perspektive it was fairly simple. As long as I follow the rules I was left alone, could duel/craft/gather etc. and would not be killed or looted. Once I started my sacred duty and the players from various guilds caught up with it, they started hunting me and eventually priest camping. After a time when I did not resume my former behaviour they stopped.

I think this might be the most significant testing result from alpha. We don´t need flagging or guards.

I am however deeply sorry. As I have failed some of you. The gods love you, and they want you to know.
 

ThaBadMan

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
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Norway
Bakti.

After reflekting my recent experiences when playing I found that the current state works rather well.

There are unspoken rules, which when broken lead to retalitation.

There is forgiveness for those that accept the peace.

It is even more interesting that this works even with unlimited resources and no reserves system.

From my perspektive it was fairly simple. As long as I follow the rules I was left alone, could duel/craft/gather etc. and would not be killed or looted. Once I started my sacred duty and the players from various guilds caught up with it, they started hunting me and eventually priest camping. After a time when I did not resume my former behaviour they stopped.

I think this might be the most significant testing result from alpha. We don´t need flagging or guards.

I am however deeply sorry. As I have failed some of you. The gods love you, and they want you to know.
Thats how a true sandbox works.

However everything changes once persistent hits and everything is for real.
It also depends alot on the game and how it works, say if everything is easy to get you wont have that competitiveness over resources if everyone can easily get everything they want.
Once griefers and griefer groups arrive, it will be harder to keep the peace. Now launch in bigger groups, alliances and zergs.
 

Eldrath

Well-known member
if you want to build up such a town you should defenitley make one :) i think such communitys will work once we can build villages. But for the start,guards are a necessary evil i think, especially for new ppl that can not fight.
I can see your point. Personally I think many new players would probably pick up on the rules fairly quickly. You could however restrict the guards and flagging system to Morin Khur and Tindrem, and maybe the closest empire enclaves like Toxai and Meduli. Leave the rest of the world to the players.

Yeah, looking at what works in a world with no economy, no items, no npcs, almost no features, nothing but a very limited amount players of alpha/beta players totally makes sense for the future. :p
If anything it shows how well social norms and the need to be accepted work already - even without material incentives.

The consequence of acting out, murdering, thieving etc. will be much harsher once the things you mention get into the game. So a player made justice system will be even more effective.

Thats how a true sandbox works.

However everything changes once persistent hits and everything is for real.
It also depends alot on the game and how it works, say if everything is easy to get you wont have that competitiveness over resources if everyone can easily get everything they want.
Once griefers and griefer groups arrive, it will be harder to keep the peace. Now launch in bigger groups, alliances and zergs.
Nearly all "griefers" I encountered in MO1 had blue flags. Any flagging system will be circumvented and actually used against those it is supposed to protect. It was called blue blocking, not red blocking for a reason. We all know this.

I think we can draw conclusions from the current state. If only to leave more of the world to the players, and only small piece to to NPC justice.
 
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Kaemik

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2020
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I don't think a flagging system will make it in for day 1 one of early access and I would argue it shouldn't because the lack of it is not something that's going to drive away the core audience who are willing to tolerate a fraction of the game.

And if the community proves we're mature enough to handle it, and newbs aren't being griefed out of the game and review bombing it, then I am ok with never including it.

The basic nature of gamers tells me we'll need it at some point. But I'm all for testing that theory again when it will see more important mechanics prioritized first.
 

Eskaldar

New member
Jun 25, 2020
26
20
3
Bakti.

After reflekting my recent experiences when playing I found that the current state works rather well.

There are unspoken rules, which when broken lead to retalitation.

There is forgiveness for those that accept the peace.

It is even more interesting that this works even with unlimited resources and no reserves system.

From my perspektive it was fairly simple. As long as I follow the rules I was left alone, could duel/craft/gather etc. and would not be killed or looted. Once I started my sacred duty and the players from various guilds caught up with it, they started hunting me and eventually priest camping. After a time when I did not resume my former behaviour they stopped.

I think this might be the most significant testing result from alpha. We don´t need flagging or guards.

I am however deeply sorry. As I have failed some of you. The gods love you, and they want you to know.
This will mean that the control of territories will be useless. In MO1, you could capture the blue city and remove the guards or add your enemies to the blacklist. What is the point of this if there is no flag system? The game will further encourage the player to kill mercilessly. It seems to me that PK-players who are ready for the fact that they should not go into areas where there are guards. They must suffer for their actions. And so there will be a massacre in the cities and a mess of noobs. Do you want to raise MO2 online so much?
 

Eldrath

Well-known member
This will mean that the control of territories will be useless. In MO1, you could capture the blue city and remove the guards or add your enemies to the blacklist. What is the point of this if there is no flag system? The game will further encourage the player to kill mercilessly. It seems to me that PK-players who are ready for the fact that they should not go into areas where there are guards. They must suffer for their actions. And so there will be a massacre in the cities and a mess of noobs. Do you want to raise MO2 online so much?
What do you mean by controlling territory? Painting the map with your colour by some game mechanic? Or actually being in the territory, using it´s resources and determining justice?

PKs will suffer for their actions. In MO1 it was actually the players trying to protect the innocent that were suffering from the flagging system. Because any flagging system will be circumvented and used to get away with crimes. Players are not fooled that easily. They remember names, they remember what you did.
 
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Eskaldar

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Jun 25, 2020
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What do you mean by controlling territory? Painting the map with your colour by some game mechanic? Or actually being in the territory, using it´s resources and determining justice?

PKs will suffer for their actions. In MO1 it was actually the players trying to protect the innocent that were suffering from the flagging system. Because any flagging system will be circumvented and used to get away with crimes. Players are not fooled that easily. They remember names, they remember what you did.
Controlling territory mean controlling territory. You and you guild push you control tower to city and take control. You guild take taxe from this territory and you rule them. When you have only 1 char on the account it very hard to chage you PK char to blue char. In MO1 it be easly, i agree.
 

Eldrath

Well-known member
Controlling territory mean controlling territory. You and you guild push you control tower to city and take control. You guild take taxe from this territory and you rule them. When you have only 1 char on the account it very hard to chage you PK char to blue char. In MO1 it be easly, i agree.
SV has stated that TC is going to be reworked and they were rather unhappy with how it turned out in MO1. So I think it´s a fair bet that we won´t have the same system.

Having only one character makes player justice also much more effective. If you have to re-roll - instead of just switching characters - to avoid other recognizing you that adds a hefty price to being a dick to everyone.
 

Godkin Veratas

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Jul 3, 2020
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I’d love to hear a well-reasoned argument based on observable facts that adding a flag system with murder counts would improve the experience in the alpha.


I’ll wait.
 

Yeonan

New member
Nov 28, 2020
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I’d love to hear a well-reasoned argument based on observable facts that adding a flag system with murder counts would improve the experience in the alpha.


I’ll wait.
Humans operate on incentive.

Currently there is little if any incentive in killing another player. Once persistence hits and materials/weapons/armor and freely available and we start dropping all our loot, players will have every incentive to kill each other.

Recall red towns in MO1 were mostly ghost towns outside of people looking for fights.
 
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Magos

Member
Nov 26, 2020
77
58
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Bakti.

After reflekting my recent experiences when playing I found that the current state works rather well.

There are unspoken rules, which when broken lead to retalitation.

There is forgiveness for those that accept the peace.

It is even more interesting that this works even with unlimited resources and no reserves system.

From my perspektive it was fairly simple. As long as I follow the rules I was left alone, could duel/craft/gather etc. and would not be killed or looted. Once I started my sacred duty and the players from various guilds caught up with it, they started hunting me and eventually priest camping. After a time when I did not resume my former behaviour they stopped.

I think this might be the most significant testing result from alpha. We don´t need flagging or guards.

I am however deeply sorry. As I have failed some of you. The gods love you, and they want you to know.
Asheron's Call had no flagging system on the pvp server.
It worked great.
Keep in mind it would be very annoying with the MO1 thievery system.
But I would like to experiment with this in MO more. It worked for AC it possibly could work for MO2.

There could be some interesting beneficial effects from no flagging or guards such as;
-a community that player police's itself and doesn't learn from the beginning to rely on guards.
-a more active and eventful town experience similar to how it is now in alpha.
-thieves would be more renown and players would need to coordinate watches for them.
 
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Rorry

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May 30, 2020
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How many people here ever lived (crafted and spent time dueling etc.) in a non guarded or walled town? Speak up! I lived in both Kran and GK at different times and don't remember seeing most of you there.

As much as I dislike guards and think the old system of flagging had massive problems, I think many people won't be able to handle playing without them. In the non- guarded towns you had to have a strong enough group log in when you were trying to craft, trying to do anything valueable when your group wasn't on or were playing other games was not very feasible and few were tough or brave enough to do it until the game population got low.
 

Magos

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Nov 26, 2020
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How many people here ever lived (crafted and spent time dueling etc.) in a non guarded or walled town? Speak up! I lived in both Kran and GK at different times and don't remember seeing most of you there.

As much as I dislike guards and think the old system of flagging had massive problems, I think many people won't be able to handle playing without them. In the non- guarded towns you had to have a strong enough group log in when you were trying to craft, trying to do anything valueable when your group wasn't on or were playing other games was not very feasible and few were tough or brave enough to do it until the game population got low.
You still have the ability to build your own towns with walls n vendors n everything though. That's like 99% chance not changing in MO2.
 

Magos

Member
Nov 26, 2020
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remove the gear you spawn with, leave the mats on the vendors for now, lets experiment for a day or two.

The real downside I can think of with no flagging/guards is once you can build your own town with walls, I think it's most likely that towns would be deserted. Which is not what anyone wants.
 
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Rorry

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Kansas
You still have the ability to build your own towns with walls n vendors n everything though. That's like 99% chance not changing in MO2.
Eventually everyone would just be living inside a palisade, for sure (which I don't want.) Before those systems are released we would churn through potentially thousands of newbs who will likely not give us a second chance.

After TC most NPC towns were very lightly populated in MO1 as well.
 
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Bernfred

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Sep 12, 2020
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i can see the bad influx the new loud inexperienced players have...sad... forum is a mess just saying.
bakti is free4all deatchmatch server not more. what you guys like is the fact that you can fight every time without losing gear and have people around you can speak to. removing NPC cities is not a solution but a step backward to TC only where every small guild is in his own micro cosmos.
EDIT: its also ironic that the player cities are the care bear places where nothing happens.
 
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