Removing spinning cause 1 month streamers cant read attacks

Tzone

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May 16, 2021
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Funny shit is that you have all the vets on the same page of non shield equipment hits and being ignored about how had and RNG based it is.

But a noob with 300 more noobs watching him, that dont under stand this is a not regional server game. Start talking about a game they dont understand and Henrik bows down to them.

This is why streamers are bad for games. Dude doesn't even have 200 hours in the game and is being backed up by people who have like 10 hours in the game. The only regulars that are backing him are those you are terrible at the game.
 

Teknique

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Jun 15, 2020
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Nope, his argument was that you had to be skilled to have any good suggestions. As it turns out, I'm one of the best in the entire genre. The whole skill part of the argument is really boring and irrelevant however (funnily enough, people say the exact opposite in Mordhau e.g. he may be rank 1 but he doesn't know what he's talking about in terms of design). Interesting how you've neglected to respond to the meat of my post.
Its not the same genre. The original game mortal online 1 you could argue was 80% aim and flick based, mordhau is like maybe 30% aim imo and the rest reading timings and animations (which honestly look worse than mortal). MO 2 is a group fighting game that also happens to have 1v1s in it. You aren't going to be able to have it be chiv 2 where group fighting meta is just running around and hitting people in the back. I mean I guess you could but it wouldn't be good. You don't die in 1-3 shots and most important its a persistent mmorpg, not a deathmatch. Really the only similarity is that the game is primarily melee.

Also I don't agree that a game is supposed to look like anything outside of the basics. A game is supposed to in my opinion feel responsive. A turn cap in a game like mordhau where it makes sense and effects everyone equally is fine. A game where a turncap doesn't make sense in the game design and also is designed incompetently (the one we have now) is absolutely worse than the appearance of the game, even if the game mandated that your monitor be off while playing it.

I also agree that someone's skill doesn't mean they have good ideas. I've seen good players be so morally bankrupt that they will suck off the devs for any advantage that they can get.
 

Hodo

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Mar 7, 2022
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What realistic sword fighting looks like.


and what it looks like in armor.

 

Teknique

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What realistic sword fighting looks like.


and what it looks like in armor.

Who cares. You can jump an entire flight of stairs in csgo. Would it be better if you couldn't? Given that its the archetypical esport I don't think it would.
 

Stouty

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Sep 24, 2022
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Its not the same genre. The original game mortal online 1 you could argue was 80% aim and flick based, mordhau is like maybe 30% aim imo and the rest reading timings and animations (which honestly look worse than mortal). MO 2 is a group fighting game that also happens to have 1v1s in it. You aren't going to be able to have it be chiv 2 where group fighting meta is just running around and hitting people in the back. I mean I guess you could but it wouldn't be good. You don't die in 1-3 shots and most important its a persistent mmorpg, not a deathmatch. Really the only similarity is that the game is primarily melee.

I agree it's not the same sub-genre (Mordhau/Chiv being a "Chiv-like", MO2 being a "M&B-like") but that's to the detriment of MO2. M&B combat = no quick offensive feint = players resort to spinning and janking out in long endurance battles where both players get bored before one dies. Chiv evolved this system through adding parry lock outs that made normal feints considerably more powerful, which has been the standard for the first person melee genre ever since.

I'm not sure what you mean by teamfighting being different between MO and Chivhau when that's the most similar aspect of both games, you move between targets to score easy hits in the chaos. Hit to kill values aren't relevant when theory crafting which systems could apply in MO, Chivhau's combat would still be superior even if everyone took 10 hits to kill rather than 3 (the bigger concern is the netcode constraints of an mmo)
 
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Turbizzler

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May 28, 2020
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Damn, that's some deep lore I was unaware of. Appreciate the support as well
It's Henriks words, so could be half truths or fabricated, but nonetheless the games are mechanically very similar, despite differing elements that branch off.

I support those who acknowledge cheese and broken aspects of mechanics, and agree are bad for game health and will advocate change, instead of trying their hardest to keep them around in game because it's an advantage for them. MO has a huge exploiting culture, so I'm not surprised at people constantly advocating for cheese, whether it's ballerinas with swords or silly mounted fat mage tamer terror bird cheese.
 
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Hodo

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Who cares. You can jump an entire flight of stairs in csgo. Would it be better if you couldn't? Given that its the archetypical esport I don't think it would.
Dont know cant stand CSGO I prefer ArmA.
 

ElPerro

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Jun 9, 2020
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I agree it's not the same sub-genre (Mordhau/Chiv being a "Chiv-like", MO2 being a "M&B-like") but that's to the detriment of MO2. M&B combat = no quick offensive feint = players resort to spinning and janking out in long endurance battles where both players get bored before one dies. Chiv evolved this system through adding parry lock outs that made normal feints considerably more powerful, which has been the standard for the first person melee genre ever since.

I'm not sure what you mean by teamfighting being different between MO and Chivhau when that's the most similar aspect of both games, you move between targets to score easy hits in the chaos. Hit to kill values aren't relevant when theory crafting which systems could apply in MO, Chivhau's combat would still be superior even if everyone took 10 hits to kill rather than 3 (the bigger concern is the netcode constraints of an mmo)
So you just want Mordhau Online. It wouldnt even work because the vision of Heinrik is a 1 global server with ping normalization while mordhau is an arena game with regional servers.
 
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MolagAmur

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Jul 15, 2020
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SV aint finding a solution. Most of the time they fuck the game up worse trying to balance or fix it. Litterally buff heugars next patch.
I won't disagree with you here. I would still like to see the PvP community come up with valid ideas rather than argue to keep the spinning meta. In my experience, when you get a group of well known players to give good ideas and discussion, instead of the usual "get good shitter, cry more", Star Vault tends to pay attention. We can't leave it up to them to come up with a fix to this problem. Its up to the players.

Lots of good players in this thread, and only one or two solutions have been brought up from the quick skimming I've done.
 
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Teknique

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I won't disagree with you here. I would still like to see the PvP community come up with valid ideas rather than argue to keep the spinning meta. In my experience, when you get a group of well known players to give good ideas and discussion, instead of the usual "get good shitter, cry more", Star Vault tends to pay attention. We can't leave it up to them to come up with a fix to this problem. Its up to the players.

Lots of good players in this thread, and only one or two solutions have been brought up from the quick skimming I've done.
It’s like tzone said. Sv isn’t going to come up with a solution that works. Things in mortal that work are usually by luck and they’re sort of like freedom, we have to fight to defend them or we’ll lose them.
My ideal solution would be limiting the way the animations play on the other persons screen. Apparently that isn’t really possible though for a number of reasons.

I wouldn’t mind seeing a kick and a jab but it’s unlikely to be balanced with ping. I don’t know anything that really can be balanced with ping ( other than no turn cap). I was very involved in combat alpha when Henrik made his recovery refresh system which is the hit recovery lockout while swinging and refresh on hit. It was actually me who told Henrik and the team that the refresh needs to happen exactly simultaneously with hitting your open to be good. I also gave Henrik the idea for mana regen human clade verbatim as a fun fact. Anyway any mechanic that would be skill based imo needs to be reacted to within half of a second like the refresh. For example if there was a specific timing with a short window for arc in the swing where you could kick or jab. Another idea I’d have would be perfect riposte where if you left click at exactly theright time your swing goes much faster. Ping would be a factor in all of this.

i truly think I could have came up with some really good ideas if I had any power to do so
 

Stouty

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Sep 24, 2022
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So you just want Mordhau Online. It wouldnt even work because the vision of Heinrik is a 1 global server with ping normalization while mordhau is an arena game with regional servers.
Over a "poor man's M&B Online"? Duh! I'm curious, can you explain to me how adding a parry lockout wouldn't work?
 

zers

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Aug 4, 2021
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Over a "poor man's M&B Online"? Duh! I'm curious, can you explain to me how adding a parry lockout wouldn't work?

How would players with >150ms in latency be able to reactively parry on swing release? Parry lockout would create a huge advantage for low pingers.
 
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Stouty

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How would players with >150ms in latency be able to reactively parry on swing release? Parry lockout would create a huge advantage for low pingers.
Are you trying to tell me that low ping players are not currently at a massive advantage?
 

zers

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Are you trying to tell me that low ping players are not currently at a massive advantage?

I would not say EU is at a massive advatange. Atleast not as much of an advantage they would have with parry lockout.
 

Stouty

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Sep 24, 2022
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I would not say EU is at a massive advatange.

I have a bridge to sell you in New York - really great tourist location, affordable price.

>Atleast not as much of an advantage they would have with parry lockout.
I would thrash you in Mordhau with 140 ping
 

Teknique

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I have a bridge to sell you in New York - really great tourist location, affordable price.

>Atleast not as much of an advantage they would have with parry lockout.
I would thrash you in Mordhau with 140 ping
Is there a solution to “broken animations”? As of a year ago seemingly mordhau had plenty. Does not every melee game exist in a state of weird and shitty animations? Turn cap and parry lockout not withstanding?

i genuinely feel like a good analogy to what most melee gamers want is for people not to say things they don’t like by forcefully stitching everyone’s mouths shut, but some people are finding ways to communicate with grunts . That level of heavy handedness by developers is in my opinion not ideal.
 

ElPerro

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Jun 9, 2020
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Over a "poor man's M&B Online"? Duh! I'm curious, can you explain to me how adding a parry lockout wouldn't work?
You would have to parry on swing release instead of the windup, goodluck doing that with 200+ ping.
 
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Emdash

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Sep 22, 2021
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You would have to parry on swing release instead of the windup, goodluck doing that with 200+ ping.

why can't we just try slowly increasing the dmg you take while parrying until the game runs right??? There's nothing weird about the turning when it's used in real battles, a spin should get you hit on the inside, but you can just be ready to parry or you can't charge a swing that fast. If you had like a 10 dmg poke that you could click swing, it would be the same lol. Move back, poke. No spinning.

But yesss, the whole trace element of MO is the best part. The ping is an issue, but I'd take the L if SOMEBODY could get good combat. I mean, shouldn't they start with good combat THEN make it accessible? I would argue this isn't even accessible, just very rote. Prol 9/10 people who have practiced 'doing what pvpers do in MO2,' could body me 1v1 and I've done a decent amount of fighting.

And like cerq said, at high level it's not really hiding anything so it's just a joke. It's something basically that allows vets to body nubs. Which is cool, but! I'll admit to being a nub at MO2 combat, and I'm not learning it. haha. I'll still fight, but I'm not doing that stuff.
 

Albanjo Dravae

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Dec 20, 2021
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HAHA guys come on, can't be defending spinning garbage. I understand u guys are good at it, and found it to be the way to bypass slow combat and easy predictions.

And It's true it doesn't really change group fights and affects most small-mid scale pvp, i don't see anything wrong with it. Remains to see what Is going to replace it, because i don't trust SV's criteria, they could come out with something thats not usable at all or something thats broken OP, kind of a russian rullette.
 

Hodo

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Mar 7, 2022
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How about increase the durability damage your equipment takes when you parry?