Removing spinning cause 1 month streamers cant read attacks

cerqo

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Mar 17, 2021
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More catering to streamers, game is doomed lmao.

Lets keep listening to 1 month old players about CORE combat mechanic balance changes because you know, they have a GOOD DEEP understanding of the mechanics lmao and know what they are talking about.
 

Tzone

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May 16, 2021
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Same with the mm the listen to people that cant perform well in the game at all and dont understand it.

Its a major issue, they need to stop going off of the heatmap and stats when those are skewed by new players that do not do well or do not PvP.

New players have no idea how to play the game and will not for the first 2000 hours. Thats why most new players choose human because they have no idea its bad and will quit in a month or two. Then your spreadsheet has that there are so many humans. Thats because its a noob trap.

If you want to balance off of spreadsheets you should only be looking at the builds of those with 2k plus hours in the game. At 2k hours you finally understand enough about the game to make a viable build.
 

Turbizzler

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May 28, 2020
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I mean, one of the streamers talking about the spinning in a negative light, is someone who actually played melee slasher games professionally and was in the top 1% in both Chivalry and Mordhau, which were/are notorious for starting the ballerina combat. Mordhau at one point had basically unreadable animations and silly insider attacks lol

There's a lot of core issues with the games combat, too much emphasis on defense with nothing other than spins and animation abuse to counter it, unless you like parry trading constantly, which is boring. The trade off for having this ping normalization system they've implemented. SV really needed to listen to combat beta feed back.

Another issue is, people don't like changes if it doesn't benefit them. Especially when it comes to combat related changes, taking away advantages(even if super cheesy) never really goes down well, for people who invest a lot of time into learning to use(abuse/exploit) these cheesy systems.

For those interested in the video of the streamer I was talking about
 

Tzone

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May 16, 2021
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I mean, one of the streamers talking about the spinning in a negative light, is someone who actually played melee slasher games professionally and was in the top 1% in both Chivalry and Mordhau, which were/are notorious for starting the ballerina combat. Mordhau at one point had basically unreadable animations and silly insider attacks lol

There's a lot of core issues with the games combat, too much emphasis on defense with nothing other than spins and animation abuse to counter it, unless you like parry trading constantly, which is boring. The trade off for having this ping normalization system they've implemented. SV really needed to listen to combat beta feed back.

Another issue is, people don't like changes if it doesn't benefit them. Especially when it comes to combat related changes, taking away advantages(even if super cheesy) never really goes down well, for people who invest a lot of time into learning to use(abuse/exploit) these cheesy systems.

For those interested in the video of the streamer I was talking about
Yet he does not do well at the game and there are other mordhau and chiv players who are top 1% who says its ok. Ok mainly due to ping and non regional servers but its the only way to make this high ping game work.

You are a noob until 2k hours. People coming in here to change whats duck taped together to get some sort of working combat and its just going to destroy the game.

Just stop listening to these new players who dont know how to play yet.
 

Kaquenqos

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May 3, 2022
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Thank god

If you don't think melee combat can be competitive without breaking the combat system with high dpi camera-movement jank, I really don't know what to tell you.

You guys will adapt, and the game won't look ridiculous. Like it says, they have replacements, presumably to avoid endless parry-fights, in the works.
 

Turbizzler

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Yet he does not do well at the game and there are other mordhau and chiv players who are top 1% who says its ok. Ok mainly due to ping and non regional servers but its the only way to make this high ping game work.

You are a noob until 2k hours. People coming in here to change whats duck taped together to get some sort of working combat and its just going to destroy the game.

Just stop listening to these new players who dont know how to play yet.
Stouty does alright at MO2 for someone who just jumped in head first, if he stuck at it, he would probably be near if not be at the top of the skill ceiling, especially with his ping. His knowledge on games that use damage trace for directional combat is higher than 99.9% of people in this game, even the self proclaimed pro's.

Spinning, backswings, Wessex drags and a variety of other animation breaking manipulation was hated by majority of competitive and pro players in Chiv/mord. They just tolerated it and used it, because no changes fixed the issue and to remain competitive had to give in to the cheese(Which MO2 is in a similar boat). Mordhau was originally designed to fix this aspect, but it only partially remedied the issue, still was aids. And just like in MO2, they had their select circle jerks who argued tooth and nail to keep the broken aspects of combat in the game, because they didn't want to give up something they invested a lot of time into learning & abusing.

There's no other top 1% Chiv/Mord players to my knowledge playing MO2. Stouty is the only one I've seen or heard of touching this game. Unless you're speaking of self proclaimed pro's who just sat in duel servers. Hours is only really an estimation of skill/knowledge level, not a definitive factual statistic. You can still have 2k hours and be a complete noob in skill and game knowledge - Especially in MO2 with so much downtime from travel/afk.
 

Rhias

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May 28, 2020
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Didn't we already have this "feature" in the combat beta and it felt like shit and got removed?
While I agree that the standing on the ground and spinning 360° is ridiculous there are indeed some weapons where it is part of the combat style.

E.g. giving a person a free parry with a spear, run away from him and then turn and stab once He missed the parry swing.
 

Rhias

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Combat already feels clumsy with heavy weapons e. g. maces. Please don't make it worse.
 

Jackdstripper

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Jan 8, 2021
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If games like Chivalry and Mordhau ( that are tiny static maps, with a handful of players, run on servers optimized for best ping and performance) still suffer from all these animation hiding/manipulation techniques…..how is it even thinkable that MO will ever be better?

MO is incredibly more complex and difficult to optimize than those lobby based battle arenas. Comparison isnt even remotely fair.
 
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cerqo

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Mar 17, 2021
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Why do people have some retarded misconception that Mordhau or Chivalry is any similar to MO2 combat? If anything Mount & Blade and For Honour is far more similar, so why exactly are we taking feedback from clueless Mordhau players that just started the game, coming from a game where the only similarity is being a melee game lmao. ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE TRASH AT THE GAME. Yo dawg, if you show up and you are instantly a god and reach the top 1%, sure give all the feedback you want, it will probably be good, but the fact of the matter is, all of these kids are utter shit at the game which just shows they have little understanding of the mechanics, instead of learning the game and actually putting in the effort to get better, let's just go ahead and drag the game down to the shit level so everyone can compete and be good straight off the bat, sounds good to me.

I'm just asking rhetorical questions here cause I already know the answer why. This is the same reason that the combat test team was filled with kids like Patwins, the same reason the completely broken trash necro pets that nobody wanted to return, made a comeback, the same reason there are no counters to magic, mounted fatmages etc. You just hate to see it :LOL:

I'm all for changes that increase the skill ceiling, but I think everyone already knows that their "solution" and "alternative" to spinning are almost guaranteed to lower the skill ceiling and make the game less competitive. I hope I'm wrong :p
 
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Dracu

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iam looking forward to their solution how they want to technically limit spinning. afaik a heavy turncap is the only way to actively kill it. And the required limitation is severe where its uncomfortable af. Lets seeeeeeee.

Spinning is the dumbest combat system ever, its literal muscle memory practise and increasing reaction time. Its boring af.
Hopefully the new system makes more weapons meta viable.

I guess they will add a proper feint, a dodge and a unblockable special attack and add a unpleasant turncap. It will be balanced on 1v1s and make fighting larger groups even worse.

Heres my guess, it wont be fun.
 

Turbizzler

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If games like Chivalry and Mordhau ( that are tiny static maps, with a handful of players, run on servers optimized for best ping and performance) still suffer from all these animation hiding/manipulation techniques…..how is it even thinkable that MO will ever be better?

MO is incredibly more complex and difficult to optimize than those lobby based battle arenas. Comparison isnt even remotely fair.
In terms of mechanical design, they're very very similar. SV even takes credit for Chivalry's combat system, as apparently Chivalry devs worked for or interned at SV before making Chivalry and took SV's ideas to build Chivalry's combat.

It's just a damage trace based on the weapons movement path, with free form combat animation control(or swing manipulation as it's called). MO1, MO2, Chivalry 1, Chivalry 2 and Mordhau all use the same foundations for their combat systems, with some different elements for feature sets. Mordhau doesn't really do directional based blocking due to it's animation complexity when it comes to morphs, feints, chambers, parries and clashes and the load it has on servers with the amount of information that the server has to handle and replicate to all clients.

MO is a bit more simplified, due to the open world nature and has much lesser depth to the melee due to the load it would have. It's why we don't have the cleave mechanic to swing through multiple people. 100+ people cleaving in a large fight would blow nodes up. It's why we don't have more advanced features like chambering. We get directional swings and parrying. But due to it's more simplified nature and less complex animation system required, it could dampen spin top combat, by not relying completely on deacceleration(turn caps) which make combat feel clunky. Instead they could make turning your character, instead of standing still and turning on the spot, actually step around(might be out of the scope of SV though) or simply reduce the damage of attacks based on inertia, so things like weapon weight, spin acceleration etc are taken into account and will lessen the damage.

But before any of this happens, SV really needs to fix the combat at the core. Because without proper soft and hard counters for the defensive play caused by the ping normalization, removing spins will just dull the combat more and make these core issues stand out even more so. Games combat is spaghetti.
 
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Hodo

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View attachment 4913

More catering to streamers, game is doomed lmao.

Lets keep listening to 1 month old players about CORE combat mechanic balance changes because you know, they have a GOOD DEEP understanding of the mechanics lmao and know what they are talking about.

Nevermind the fact that people have been calling the spin-to-win mechanic stupid since day 1 of the damned games launch? Are you so high on your own hot air you think everything revolves around Twitch Streamers? NO! It is a stupid mechanic and has been stupid since the very beginning. Hell a simple google search will return people complaining about spinning. A simple search on the discord will return over a thousand hits on spinning. Hell on some subreddits you can find spin macros for the game.

So tell me again how this looks good?
 
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Kaquenqos

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Rhias said:
While I agree that the standing on the ground and spinning 360° is ridiculous there are indeed some weapons where it is part of the combat style.

E.g. giving a person a free parry with a spear, run away from him and then turn and stab once He missed the parry swing.

I doubt they will put in an imposition so great that you are incapable of doing a 180 to turn your character around... I mean, that would be ridiculous.


Combat already feels clumsy with heavy weapons e. g. maces. Please don't make it worse.

You should be complaining about how 2h axes & clubs are undertuned, not becoming a proponent of a broken mechanic & the meta it creates because of that fact.

Yeah, 2h axes & maces could use some extra utility, and a buff that lessens handle-hits... But that's no reason to support the mandatory high-dpi camera-jank as a meta.



Dracu said:
iam looking forward to their solution how they want to technically limit spinning. afaik a heavy turncap is the only way to actively kill it. And the required limitation is severe where its uncomfortable af. Lets seeeeeeee.

Spinning is the dumbest combat system ever, its literal muscle memory practise and increasing reaction time. Its boring af.
Hopefully the new system makes more weapons meta viable.

I guess they will add a proper feint, a dodge and a unblockable special attack and add a unpleasant turncap. It will be balanced on 1v1s and make fighting larger groups even worse.

Heres my guess, it wont be fun.
Click to expand...

Personally I would be a proponent of them adding these types of parry counters and no turn-cap. So that you can still do your ballerina spins, but they are nowhere near as useful as before.

To me, the problem isn't that you can do spins, but that it's literally the only way to be competitive. If it's just kind of a trick shot that might be useful situationally, or to show off, whatever. Literally having to do it as the only option to break a parry stalemate is the problem.
 
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Jatix

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Sep 30, 2020
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I'll be honest, spinning is aids, so no complaints from me. My issue with every melee combat game, is the key to be good is always doing some aids thing to get through blocks. Mordhau is jsut a gross but in its own way. Theres no hope for a melee combat system in a game that actually feels intelligent at higher level play.
 

zers

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Aug 4, 2021
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Thank god

If you don't think melee combat can be competitive without breaking the combat system with high dpi camera-movement jank, I really don't know what to tell you.

You guys will adapt, and the game won't look ridiculous. Like it says, they have replacements, presumably to avoid endless parry-fights, in the works.
Combat without spinning while avoiding endless parry-fights would result in either very zerg friendly and/or very low ping reliant.

Or do you any ground breaking ideas?
 
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Kaquenqos

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Combat without spinning while avoiding endless parry-fights would result in either very zerg friendly and/or very low ping reliant.

Or do you any ground breaking ideas?
Combat, like literally every single competitive online video game, is already very ping reliant in MO2. There are proven, very clear differences in observable frames between latencies-- and this is not even considering attacks that end up out of sync with observable animation... So, that's kind of an irrelevant point.

Maybe they should lower the overall combat speed again, considering they won't be able to alleviate this issue any other way.
 

serge

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Theres a reason why SV based this game more off the original warbands combat and not mordhau. It works better in large scale. This isn't a 1v1 duel brain game. People complain about spinning but they also don't understand 99% of the time in proper large scale end game fights with high skill players there is very little to no spinning.

You can punish people that spin too much in 1v1s and spinning is just one of the many mechanics that you use to break people's blocks in 1v1. Why should that get removed it's not like 1v1 is the bulk of the game? Shouldn't take advice from arena slasher gamers who haven't even mastered this game.
 
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