Turn Cap Yes or No?

Turn Cap?


  • Total voters
    32
  • Poll closed .

ElPerro

Well-known member
Jun 9, 2020
275
319
63
Dunno, he is half swording and using his body to put force behind the point. Getting in close, using your body to leverage strength, shortening the length of your blade dynamically. Maybe it´s more like sumo-wrestling with a knife?

To quit this hilarious discussion. I´m 90% sure the horizontal turn limit is a bad idea. But I don´t mind trying it. Vertikal animations should be limited though.
I think we can all agree those back breaking animations are aids, and spinning make them look even worse. Guess we'll see what the real intended cap is soon enough
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rolufe

Valoran

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
242
287
63
I have two things to comment on:


One, as has already been stated, you can't compare unarmed fighting techniques used in tournament fighting based on performance art for entertainment, point scoring, and knockouts to real armed combat with bladed weapons. The same principles do not apply at all, and mechanically speaking there is no reason you would willingly expose your back to an opponent in a real fight, there are always better, more effective choices that can be made.

This is not to say that a spinning technique is impossible to be effective, rather that unless you're trying to look interesting or extravagant while doing so, it is almost never a smart thing to do, or the best possible technique.


Secondly, to say that mortals combat is not realistic already and therefore we shouldn't aspire to maintain as close to realistic or believable animations as possible is not productive when the game follows a relatively low fantasy design, and logical believability is clearly a goal for all game systems.

I've said it multiple times, but the logical fallacy of "It's not perfect so let's not try to make it better at all" is not the path to success.



Those two points aside, I would also remind everyone that the term "spinning" is not exactly accurate here, as the problematic animations in question are caused by flicking the camera upwards or at an angle, and don't actually involve literally spinning or turning around on the spot.


Finally, again, the turn cap is not functioning at the moment and as such we are still yet to test it.
 

Grisù

Member
Sep 3, 2020
60
77
18
Hello gentlemen,
I think this discussion is going a bit too far and maybe we are losing focus on what does really matter.

My thoughts about this spinning vs turn cap quarrel are very chill;
in my opinion it doesn't matter what will be the path which developers will choose,
but i really care about the final game experience quality.

As far as could read in this thread, if the issue was IRL, there were absolutely no problems.
Who thinks that sword spinning is useful would be happy to use it and showing it off (the witcher guy video example),
who thinks that sword spinning is dumb and useless would be happy to fight against (the capoeira bad ending video example).

Videogames like Chivalry and Mordahu showed us that the real problem stands in code implementation and not in spinning itself.
In Chivalry, I remember, spinning literally killed the whole game experience, it had no movement restrictions;
players could do Horizontal 360° combined with Vertical 180° while crouching with absolutely no inertia all together in a little fraction of second.
The final result was that the spinning animation wasn't smooth, like the one from the witcher guy video,
but laggy and irregular instead, making spinner movements unintelligible.
All that without even mentioning the negative dragging, by doing it a player could chop off your head by swinging a sword at the absurd speed of 0.5cm/second, technically a caress.

Honestly i even understand who dislikes turn cap and movement restrictions, because in many cases they slowed so much the game, making duels boring and taking away the possibility of a decent crowd control in large battles.

TL;DR Version

case A) Spinning will be in without any movement restriction but with insane speed limitation; we can only hope that server-client netcode, server tickrate, client rendering will work in a so exceptionally good way that Spinners movements will be intelligible making them capable of being avoided or countered by a normal human being.

case B) Turn cap or any other movement restriction feature will be in; we can only hope developers will make a very good coding job, having a formula that will calculate a smooth movement speed coefficient curve on client side, that will be synchronized (validated) even on server side to avoid any type of bypass (cheating).

case C) Very hardcore PVPers will find and abuse every unbalanced move/hit/technique making the game frustrating for anyone else (as Chivalry shown us). Solution for non-abuser player: just play for gathering-processing-crafting-merchanting, or start cosplaying Robin Hood by killing all players mechanic-abuser by ranged weapons making the game frustrating for them.

That's my thoughts, maybe I'm wrong, maybe most of you, if not all, will be in disagreement; but I played thousands of hours on medieval fighting online videogames experiencing different types of gameplay. Surely I know what i want to play.

Sorry for the wall of text.
 

Teknique

Well-known member
Jun 15, 2020
889
645
93
At this point I don’t care what sv does.

just thought it was interesting. This guy doesn’t really do anything that causes his player models to do anything wonky, but you can see that spin flick he does pretty often.

just the barrier to entry if you want to be good at combat sims, you’re gonna need to be a wizard with the mouse
 

bbihah

Well-known member
Jul 10, 2020
458
288
63
I'm one of the people that are on the side that tricking people by using wonky animations is something that have to go.

Don't mind the turn cap, but it is far from perfect and I think if they are not going to be doing much more with combat then it is causing more problems than it fixes.

I've seen people suggesting that they do it like in MO1, where from another persons perspective you can not really bend up and down but I think there might be a better suggestion that makes mo2 looking up and down still work just fine but getting rid of the ability to hide your swings with high sensitivity. A limit to how much movement up and down that another client can see you change in X amount of time might be a better change if all it is supposed to do is make sure the telegraphing they spent time on making doesn't get thrown out the window. This meaning that no matter how fast you are looking up and down, from someone else's perspective you are just slowly wiggling up and down, it'll sort of be a prediction system for aiming up and down. As it isn't that important to know where up and down someone that has really high sensitivity is looking within a super tiny time frame.


If they do have a plan with the turn caps to actually put some change in how the combat is supposed to play out, im all for it. But if this is just to make sure you cant hide your swings, then im a bit skeptical that this particular way to go about it was the best path taken.
 

Waalan

New member
May 28, 2020
19
17
3
31
Fabernum
I hope the turn cap will be objectively reviewed and tested in group fights to make sure it is not affecting them in a negative way.

In that case a turn cap could be great.

It is a good idea and I'm glad we are giving it a shot, but I think it can mess up the gameplay if we are not careful.

IF we have to choose, please choose in favour of groups rather than 1v1 situations.
 

Eldrath

Well-known member
At this point I don’t care what sv does.

just thought it was interesting. This guy doesn’t really do anything that causes his player models to do anything wonky, but you can see that spin flick he does pretty often.

just the barrier to entry if you want to be good at combat sims, you’re gonna need to be a wizard with the mouse
Spinning and rapid mouse movements have another purpose which is to keep your muscles active and responsive. Basically the same as APM do for RTS gamers. I did actually notice problems with my reaction precision the longer a roam went on. Simply because my right arm was too passive for a long time.

Any FPS game comes down to efficiency of movement and coordination.

I hope the turn cap will be objectively reviewed and tested in group fights to make sure it is not affecting them in a negative way.

In that case a turn cap could be great.

It is a good idea and I'm glad we are giving it a shot, but I think it can mess up the gameplay if we are not careful.

IF we have to choose, please choose in favour of groups rather than 1v1 situations.
Yes, and 1 vs X. A turncap might be the worst in those situations as you need to flick around quickly to even keep the information about your opponents flowing. As you said, we´ll see, we´ll test and adjust.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Waalan

Teknique

Well-known member
Jun 15, 2020
889
645
93
I have two things to comment on:


One, as has already been stated, you can't compare unarmed fighting techniques used in tournament fighting based on performance art for entertainment, point scoring, and knockouts to real armed combat with bladed weapons. The same principles do not apply at all, and mechanically speaking there is no reason you would willingly expose your back to an opponent in a real fight, there are always better, more effective choices that can be made.

This is not to say that a spinning technique is impossible to be effective, rather that unless you're trying to look interesting or extravagant while doing so, it is almost never a smart thing to do, or the best possible technique.


Secondly, to say that mortals combat is not realistic already and therefore we shouldn't aspire to maintain as close to realistic or believable animations as possible is not productive when the game follows a relatively low fantasy design, and logical believability is clearly a goal for all game systems.

I've said it multiple times, but the logical fallacy of "It's not perfect so let's not try to make it better at all" is not the path to success.



Those two points aside, I would also remind everyone that the term "spinning" is not exactly accurate here, as the problematic animations in question are caused by flicking the camera upwards or at an angle, and don't actually involve literally spinning or turning around on the spot.


Finally, again, the turn cap is not functioning at the moment and as such we are still yet to test it.
The issue is selectively citing realism to fit your agenda.
I'm one of the people that are on the side that tricking people by using wonky animations is something that have to go.

Don't mind the turn cap, but it is far from perfect and I think if they are not going to be doing much more with combat then it is causing more problems than it fixes.

I've seen people suggesting that they do it like in MO1, where from another persons perspective you can not really bend up and down but I think there might be a better suggestion that makes mo2 looking up and down still work just fine but getting rid of the ability to hide your swings with high sensitivity. A limit to how much movement up and down that another client can see you change in X amount of time might be a better change if all it is supposed to do is make sure the telegraphing they spent time on making doesn't get thrown out the window. This meaning that no matter how fast you are looking up and down, from someone else's perspective you are just slowly wiggling up and down, it'll sort of be a prediction system for aiming up and down. As it isn't that important to know where up and down someone that has really high sensitivity is looking within a super tiny time frame.


If they do have a plan with the turn caps to actually put some change in how the combat is supposed to play out, im all for it. But if this is just to make sure you cant hide your swings, then im a bit skeptical that this particular way to go about it was the best path taken.
be careful of using the term high sensitivity and max sensitivity like you do a lot. FPS pros might think you’re just making stuff up if you do. It’s common knowledge amongst FPS players that sensitivity is one of those setting where there is no objective right answer. You can see Cs pros and they will all look fast af. Some are using 400 dpi, many people use 1800 dpi like myself, true high sensitivity would be in the 3-6k dpi range.

If you’d like to record yourself using 6k dpi and showing us how you now spin and hit everything accurately simply because you have high sensitivity I would love to see that. Dw I’ll wait
 

Teknique

Well-known member
Jun 15, 2020
889
645
93
Spinning and rapid mouse movements have another purpose which is to keep your muscles active and responsive. Basically the same as APM do for RTS gamers. I did actually notice problems with my reaction precision the longer a roam went on. Simply because my right arm was too passive for a long time.

Any FPS game comes down to efficiency of movement and coordination.



Yes, and 1 vs X. A turncap might be the worst in those situations as you need to flick around quickly to even keep the information about your opponents flowing. As you said, we´ll see, we´ll test and adjust.
Noticed problems where? In the combat alpha?
 

Neftan

Active member
May 28, 2020
236
245
43
My Mind
I didn't like it at first, but I warmed up to it. I would decrease the intensity a bit, and make it a hard cap, so that higher DPI settings don't matter and you literally cannot turn faster than the game allows.

This would ensure that everyone is dealing with the same rotation speed, and by lowering the intensity in general makes it loss obnoxious and not as much of an issue in the group fighting.
 

Rolufe

Active member
Jun 1, 2020
105
56
28
I hope the turn cap will be objectively reviewed and tested in group fights to make sure it is not affecting them in a negative way.

In that case a turn cap could be great.

It is a good idea and I'm glad we are giving it a shot, but I think it can mess up the gameplay if we are not careful.

IF we have to choose, please choose in favor of groups rather than 1v1 situations.
We have been doing group fights as well as duels and from my experience it seems like its randomly being applied a syrupy feeling almost like my 3,2k DPI goes down to 1k DPI. I mostly notice it in duels after i finished a swing and i try to move away from the enemy im facing, by turning to sprint a few meters. In teamfights when i finished a swing at one enemy and turn to face the next one. I believe this is the part of it that wasn't intended.

I could set my DPI on my mouse to 12k if i wanted to and the turn cap is there to limit me from doing it. From what i remember from the tests this is working.
 
Last edited:

ElPerro

Well-known member
Jun 9, 2020
275
319
63
We have been doing group fights as well as duels and from my experience it seems like its randomly being applied a syrupy feeling almost like my 3,2k DPI goes down to 1k DPI. I mostly notice it in duels after i finished a swing and i try to move away from the enemy im facing, by turning to sprint a few meters. In teamfights when i finished a swing at one enemy and turn to face the next one. I believe this is the part of it that wasn't intended.

I could set my DPI on my mouse to 12k if i wanted to and the turn cap is there to limit me from doing it. From what i remember from the tests this is working.
That syrupy feeling is the turn cap, its supposed to be applied any time you charge a swing but its broken. Also if you set your dpi to 12k you probably wouldnt even feel the turn cap as its dpi based atm, so its not working at all.
 

Teknique

Well-known member
Jun 15, 2020
889
645
93
I'm one of the people that are on the side that tricking people by using wonky animations is something that have to go.

Don't mind the turn cap, but it is far from perfect and I think if they are not going to be doing much more with combat then it is causing more problems than it fixes.

I've seen people suggesting that they do it like in MO1, where from another persons perspective you can not really bend up and down but I think there might be a better suggestion that makes mo2 looking up and down still work just fine but getting rid of the ability to hide your swings with high sensitivity. A limit to how much movement up and down that another client can see you change in X amount of time might be a better change if all it is supposed to do is make sure the telegraphing they spent time on making doesn't get thrown out the window. This meaning that no matter how fast you are looking up and down, from someone else's perspective you are just slowly wiggling up and down, it'll sort of be a prediction system for aiming up and down. As it isn't that important to know where up and down someone that has really high sensitivity is looking within a super tiny time frame.


If they do have a plan with the turn caps to actually put some change in how the combat is supposed to play out, im all for it. But if this is just to make sure you cant hide your swings, then im a bit skeptical that this particular way to go about it was the best path taken.
Correction I guess at 2500 or so effective dpi I do play pretty high range
 

Rolufe

Active member
Jun 1, 2020
105
56
28
That syrupy feeling is the turn cap, its supposed to be applied any time you charge a swing but its broken. Also if you set your dpi to 12k you probably wouldnt even feel the turn cap as its dpi based atm, so its not working at all.
I will jump in and test the 12k DPI, now and see if i can bypass the hard cap or what i thought was the hard cap at :)
 

Teknique

Well-known member
Jun 15, 2020
889
645
93
I will jump in and test the 12k DPI, now and see if i can bypass the hard cap or what i thought was the hard cap at :)
I left mine at 1800 and it felt quite pleasant. If you go too high your aim is gonna be ?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rolufe

Rolufe

Active member
Jun 1, 2020
105
56
28
Now i just tested it with the 12k DPI and there is a working turn cap on the horizontal and nothing for vertical so i can flick up and down so i see both the sky and everything on the ground at the same time overlapping frames xD

Edit: i also now feel the turn cap constantly at 3200 and 2400 DPI but it dont really disturb me. at 1200 DPI I only feel it on flick turns 120 degrees or more This is however what it is for.

Im not entirely sure but it feels like you might be turning slightly faster with higher DPI but the character animation starts stuttering.
 
Last edited:

barcode

Active member
Jun 2, 2020
247
220
43
certainly i havent read anything in this thread but i dont think there should be a turn cap up to 180 degrees. Often times you need to turn tail and run and being able to do so without any hinderance is pretty useful. 360 action however, is just silly, witcher or not.

so have the turn cap shift according to where you are currently looking at a fixed rate. if you look in one direction for a short while, you can turn more or less instantly in 180deg either direction. the turn cap will shift to where you are currently looking at a fixed rate, allowing you to turn further only as fast as the turn cap moves at that point. this way you will only hit the turn cap if you go over 180deg very quickly.

i suppose sandbox style would dictate you dont have anything preventing your turn speed but rather suffer movement impediments and possibly a 'stun' or trip if you go over the turn cap. perhaps the balance skill can help this somewhat, but shouldnt be a panacea.

-barcode
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rolufe and Kuroi

Rolufe

Active member
Jun 1, 2020
105
56
28
certainly i havent read anything in this thread but i dont think there should be a turn cap up to 180 degrees. Often times you need to turn tail and run and being able to do so without any hinderance is pretty useful. 360 action however, is just silly, witcher or not.

so have the turn cap shift according to where you are currently looking at a fixed rate. if you look in one direction for a short while, you can turn more or less instantly in 180deg either direction. the turn cap will shift to where you are currently looking at a fixed rate, allowing you to turn further only as fast as the turn cap moves at that point. this way you will only hit the turn cap if you go over 180deg very quickly.

i suppose sandbox style would dictate you dont have anything preventing your turn speed but rather suffer movement impediments and possibly a 'stun' or trip if you go over the turn cap. perhaps the balance skill can help this somewhat, but shouldnt be a panacea.

-barcode
Currently there is a turn rate cap most just call it turn cap. You can turn any degree and run but sometimes there is a bug slowing your turn rate way more then intended.

If you flick your mouse so you would do a 360 it will do a 360 but it will take a little time. Before your character catch up with your mouse. This is caused by the turn rate cap as intended.