The only way to balance Dex and Healing without having to rebalance PVE is to add new mechanics.

[fartbox]

Prior to combat abilities I lobbied for 3 types of mechanics that would balance dex and healing. I think enough time has passed now that I can present my argument again on why we need these mechanics and why without them a state of balance is not possible in the presence of speed disparity and self healing.

The mechanics we need:

1. Healing debuffs (Grievous wounds): First and foremost we need a long standing melee applied debuff that can be applied to targets that will reduce the effectiveness of healing on that target.

2. Gap closers: A high cost/high cooldown gap closer. We need a way for non dex classes to have kill threat on dex classes, especially when the dex class has been involved in extended trading. It should be harder to reset the fight the longer you have been fighting.

3. Slows: We need a high cost, high cooldown way to slow characters down, especially in the context of extended trades. It should be harder to reset the fight the longer you have been fighting with someone.


Without these mechanics the only other way to balance dex and heal creep is by tweaking the numbers. Either mana costs, or healing output or dex to speed ratio, but changing any of these will result in the disruption of razor thin PVE margins; namely for endgame solo PVE, and since that is the basis of the foodchain and ecosystem disrupting this delicate PVE balance could only hurt the playerbase.

That is why i am urging Starvault to reconsider and balance the game with new mechanics rather then their traditional route of tweaking numbers or build paths.

 

[Emdash]

I think you can keep elves as speedy glass cannons, but they have to fix some of the number aspects as well.

To me, gap closers are simply speed skills, which elves already have. I would like the game without speed skills, but if an elf is using a speed skill and they still get closed on, that is a waste on both sides.

I would prefer to see stamina matter more. People have come up with many many ideas of how to balance speed, but we have seen stamina become a very neglected 'resource' in regards to skill based play. I would like to see different clades react differently to having low stam.

Make it so that people run slightly slower at a certain point (different based on clade,) make them run MUCH slower when stammed to a certain point, until they stam up above a certain point.

There are many, many things that are making elves (cuz it's not dex. Lean khur is cool but not so great haha) hard to deal with they all must be addressed. Some of them are game mechanics and general power creep when % speed boost stayed the same. Some of them are just how their clades work, like resting pulse is really strong. It probably needs a limitation, like IF you haven't been hit for x amount of time.

It might sound like I am remaking the game, too, but I think it's much closer to MO style than what you are suggesting.

Make elf a class that requires a high level of stam management, not just a class that can zoom around regardless. There is a way to fix this, imo, but people need to use their brains and be creative.

I am getting fatigued trying to make these sorts of posts.

Due to having the highest speed, elves should be the highest skill ceiling class, not something everyone rolls. You should be able to punish a bad elf.

 

[Iloros]

Prior to combat abilities I lobbied for 3 types of mechanics that would balance dex and healing. I think enough time has passed now that I can present my argument again on why we need these mechanics and why without them a state of balance is not possible in the presence of speed disparity and self healing.

The mechanics we need:

1. Healing debuffs (Grievous wounds): First and foremost we need a long standing melee applied debuff that can be applied to targets that will reduce the effectiveness of healing on that target.

2. Gap closers: A high cost/high cooldown gap closer. We need a way for non dex classes to have kill threat on dex classes, especially when the dex class has been involved in extended trading. It should be harder to reset the fight the longer you have been fighting.

3. Slows: We need a high cost, high cooldown way to slow characters down, especially in the context of extended trades. It should be harder to reset the fight the longer you have been fighting with someone.


Without these mechanics the only other way to balance dex and heal creep is by tweaking the numbers. Either mana costs, or healing output or dex to speed ratio, but changing any of these will result in the disruption of razor thin PVE margins; namely for endgame solo PVE, and since that is the basis of the foodchain and ecosystem disrupting this delicate PVE balance could only hurt the playerbase.

That is why i am urging Starvault to reconsider and balance the game with new mechanics rather then their traditional route of tweaking numbers or build paths.

I completely agree and Im glad people are waking up to the fact that Alvarins are way too strong compared to other races however I don't see how number tweaking would hit PVE that hard. Right now Alvarin footies and mages freefarm dungeons like nothing in shit gear. Nerf to mages ability to freefarm is needed and both tweak in heals from LH and Gh and bandage wouldnt make anything thats not OP now weaker. Thursara will pve just fine, Oghmirs always were bad but wouldnt be hurt much and humans also can pve well it will mostly nerf Sheevras and fatmage isnt even a real foot class and is troll solo due to many other reasons already.

So I think while mechanics would be my preference aswell Id like a few weapons to get a slow (sword sprar) a few to get a stun (hammers) and a few to get a hook (axes poleaxes) and some other CC or gap closers I think its genuinely too much to ask of SV for now this is an emergency elves are like 80% of pop and need instant hotfix its already bleeding the sarduca hype.

Nerf Alvarin 2.5% passive speed bonus. Nerf Alvarin sight remove it matter of fact.
Remove all their stamima flat bonuses and % modifier bonuses. And they will be an assasin that might escape.

They have easily second or maybe even first place in overall damage. They get weakspots armor pierce more stam light stam weapons best bow users by far they are not jokes anymore with nerfed daggers where you only had to parry down and they never kill or bows that have 0 abilities and no armor pierce fighting thursars with adamant and fatmages that cant be interrupted.

They are straight assasins now their dmg and kill pressure is the scariest and they have a lot of HP due to trinkets masteries and flat HP buffs. An Alvarin footie geared out has 230 HP now. Alvarin sheevra mages get to 200 easy if they want to.

You cant get this much combat power on top of just being able tp always leave meele and outstam everyone.

 

[fartbox]

I completely agree and Im glad people are waking up to the fact that Alvarins are way too strong compared to other races however I don't see how number tweaking would hit PVE that hard. Right now Alvarin footies and mages freefarm dungeons like nothing in shit gear. Nerf to mages ability to freefarm is needed and both tweak in heals from LH and Gh and bandage wouldnt make anything thats not OP now weaker. Thursara will pve just fine, Oghmirs always were bad but wouldnt be hurt much and humans also can pve well it will mostly nerf Sheevras and fatmage isnt even a real foot class and is troll solo due to many other reasons already.

So I think while mechanics would be my preference aswell Id like a few weapons to get a slow (sword sprar) a few to get a stun (hammers) and a few to get a hook (axes poleaxes) and some other CC or gap closers I think its genuinely too much to ask of SV for now this is an emergency elves are like 80% of pop and need instant hotfix its already bleeding the sarduca hype.

Nerf Alvarin 2.5% passive speed bonus. Nerf Alvarin sight remove it matter of fact.
Remove all their stamima flat bonuses and % modifier bonuses. And they will be an assasin that might escape.

They have easily second or maybe even first place in overall damage. They get weakspots armor pierce more stam light stam weapons best bow users by far they are not jokes anymore with nerfed daggers where you only had to parry down and they never kill or bows that have 0 abilities and no armor pierce fighting thursars with adamant and fatmages that cant be interrupted.

They are straight assasins now their dmg and kill pressure is the scariest and they have a lot of HP due to trinkets masteries and flat HP buffs. An Alvarin footie geared out has 230 HP now. Alvarin sheevra mages get to 200 easy if they want to.

You cant get this much combat power on top of just being able tp always leave meele and outstam everyone.

I was talking about objectives that solo players can contest:

UC
Vessel
Trolls
Queens
Bay Wafa Warlord

At least two of these fights are finishing the fight with under 20mana. If they adjust mana to health values or potentially even dex it would likely make at least two of these impossible which could only hurt the ecosystem. If you want to see how popular group only objectives are vs solo potential objectives then go stand at Ultimeki and count how many hours it takes until you see someone. Most of the time the objectives on this list are completed by groups, but it being possible for solo players is important to build the ecosystem and drive traffic/engagement to these objectives.

Solo player>small group>big group

MMO habitats have alot in common with simulated natural habitats like vivarium's, which are self contained natural environments that people often keep in their homes for entertainment and if you build one in your home you will notice one thing quickly or all your animals will die. You need the bottom of the food chain to thrive for the top of the food chain to thrive.

I don't think its possible to truly balance speed without incorporating the mechanics I listed in my first post regardless. So hopefully SV considers this carefully, the tweaking of numbers might look attractive as an easy fix but if it doesn't actually fix the problem and it alienates the bottom of the ecosystem on top, it could only hurt the game, not help it.

 

[Emdash]

I was talking about objectives that solo players can contest:

UC
Vessel
Trolls
Queens
Bay Wafa Warlord

At least two of these fights are finishing the fight with under 20mana. If they adjust mana to health values or potentially even dex it would likely make at least two of these impossible which could only hurt the ecosystem. If you want to see how popular group only objectives are vs solo potential objectives then go stand at Ultimeki and count how many hours it takes until you see someone. Most of the time the objectives on this list are completed by groups, but it being possible for solo players is important to build the ecosystem and drive traffic/engagement to these objectives.

Solo player>small group>big group

MMO habitats have alot in common with simulated natural habitats like vivarium's, which are self contained natural environments that people often keep in their homes for entertainment and if you build one in your home you will notice one thing quickly or all your animals will die. You need the bottom of the food chain to thrive for the top of the food chain to thrive.

I don't think its possible to truly balance speed without incorporating the mechanics I listed in my first post regardless. So hopefully SV considers this carefully, the tweaking of numbers might look attractive as an easy fix but if it doesn't actually fix the problem and it alienates the bottom of the ecosystem on top, it could only hurt the game, not help it.

considering I agree with your thesis: "It should be harder to reset the fight the longer you have been fighting with someone," what is wrong with the idea of tying it to stam and making stam matter? Then we don't need dashes and CC.

 

[fartbox]

considering I agree with your thesis: "It should be harder to reset the fight the longer you have been fighting with someone," what is wrong with the idea of tying it to stam and making stam matter? Then we don't need dashes and CC.

What happens in a real fight is that both players eventually stam out and the player with the lighter armor and less/no stamina to damage conversion and who has a higher base speed auto wins the stam war, this is exactly how mages auto win against stout Veelas in open fields. Also chasing someone for 90 seconds in a straight line until they stam out and you stam out is poor gameplay.

Gap closers and slows are necessary to balance speed disparity and I will defend this position indefinitely. When I first asked Starvault to add them the game, the Elf to player ratio was much less then it is now. Now that the full scope of the problem has been visualized by the players and the company my argument is even more credible.


I can't think of a single PVP game that has speed disparity that also does not have these mechanics. However after adding these mechanics you could even give Dex characters more speed or other types of buffs as there will be counterplay to it besides a mounted.

Gap closers and slows should have both a high adrenaline and stamina cost, they should not be auto win buttons against elves but they should serve as a tool that slower characters can use to force a elf to attempt multiple resets before success. Right now Dex vs Non Dex: its 1 jump, gap, heal after any bad trade; punishment free, risk free, bad for the game.

 

[Iloros]

I was talking about objectives that solo players can contest:

UC
Vessel
Trolls
Queens
Bay Wafa Warlord

At least two of these fights are finishing the fight with under 20mana. If they adjust mana to health values or potentially even dex it would likely make at least two of these impossible which could only hurt the ecosystem. If you want to see how popular group only objectives are vs solo potential objectives then go stand at Ultimeki and count how many hours it takes until you see someone. Most of the time the objectives on this list are completed by groups, but it being possible for solo players is important to build the ecosystem and drive traffic/engagement to these objectives.

Solo player>small group>big group

MMO habitats have alot in common with simulated natural habitats like vivarium's, which are self contained natural environments that people often keep in their homes for entertainment and if you build one in your home you will notice one thing quickly or all your animals will die. You need the bottom of the food chain to thrive for the top of the food chain to thrive.

I don't think its possible to truly balance speed without incorporating the mechanics I listed in my first post regardless. So hopefully SV considers this carefully, the tweaking of numbers might look attractive as an easy fix but if it doesn't actually fix the problem and it alienates the bottom of the ecosystem on top, it could only hurt the game, not help it.

no other builds can do those bosses lol just nerf bs healing and then nerf boss hp a bit

 

[Iloros]

What happens in a real fight is that both players eventually stam out and the player with the lighter armor and less/no stamina to damage conversion and who has a higher base speed auto wins the stam war, this is exactly how mages auto win against stout Veelas in open fields. Also chasing someone for 90 seconds in a straight line until they stam out and you stam out is poor gameplay.

Gap closers and slows are necessary to balance speed disparity and I will defend this position indefinitely. When I first asked Starvault to add them the game, the Elf to player ratio was much less then it is now. Now that the full scope of the problem has been visualized by the players and the company my argument is even more credible.


I can't think of a single PVP game that has speed disparity that also does not have these mechanics. However after adding these mechanics you could even give Dex characters more speed or other types of buffs as there will be counterplay to it besides a mounted.

Gap closers and slows should have both a high adrenaline and stamina cost, they should not be auto win buttons against elves but they should serve as a tool that slower characters can use to force a elf to attempt multiple resets before success. Right now Dex vs Non Dex: its 1 jump, gap, heal after any bad trade; punishment free, risk free, bad for the game.

Facts its way too little kill pressure from non alvarins on alvarins why play a pvp game with such a disadvantage in both kill pressure and survivability for what 20 hp lol

i do however think they need to hotfix nerf Alvarins until those abilities come and then they can buff them back because no kidding game is unplayable if you arent one.

 

[Emdash]

What happens in a real fight is that both players eventually stam out and the player with the lighter armor and less/no stamina to damage conversion and who has a higher base speed auto wins the stam war, this is exactly how mages auto win against stout Veelas in open fields. Also chasing someone for 90 seconds in a straight line until they stam out and you stam out is poor gameplay.

I appreciate that you considered it. I would say people stam out because they are bad or know it doesn't matter. Nobody stammed out like that in Mortal 1 because when you did you died. People will learn.

I agree that mages are different, but it has to do with a lot of other issues, like that they don't require stam to do dmg, they, if elves, can cast and regen stam faster, etc.

But look at how veela attribute spread is. They have low str and low con. They should not be highest stam. That is a development mistake. That's why I said some numbers need to be adjusted. You should need to spec sprinting, combat manu and endurance to kite well on a veela.

So imagine this:

out of combat speed and entering the fight, the veela is fast. If the veela wants to be able to always escape, maybe one hit or two hits then start thinking about creating a gap. OR if you think you can pressure more, you enter tier two which is like soft commitment, in that you could technically stam back up out of it and create a gap before you die. To hard confirm the kill, you will have to go into a place where you both will be roughly the same speed until someone dies.

To kill someone with a veela, you should be alternating between kiting, going in and whittling them, and then creating the gap again. Thus, a match up of a thursar and a veela in decent armor would be tough because the thur would regen probably half of the damage done.

This is a mechanical balance that affects the game on many levels (positively, imo.) The idea of gap closers and slows seem like a change in offense only. Do veelas also get slows and gap closers? Can they just gap close to their teammate and then run away? How big of a gap are we trying to close?

I think that it's an option, and it has been discussed for a loooong time. People would rage in MO1 when I talked about CC. I kind of get it, though. All CC is pro zerg, too. I think the mechanics of MO1 which, ideally, should involve a lot of running around the open world ON FOOT do allow for speed differences. It's not a MOBA or an extraction game.

They gave stam for parrying, which is cool. They went in on counter reduce, which I dunno how I feel about. Being able to gain stam for good plays and lose stam for bad plays and having stam matter seems like a much better route to take and see what happens.

You talk about chasing in a straight line for 90 seconds, but that's one of the only places that stam really matters in MO2.

As for mages, I dunno, I like the idea of lowering the effectiveness of self heal if you continue to do it, and I like the idea of making them lose chunks of stam for being hit while charging, since interrupt isn't happening anymore.

The fact that someone can keep an unclosable gap is not game breaking. It sucks for the chaser if they decide to chase, but your play style would be as a griefer / pet killer if you wanted to truly stay that safe. And I dunno how gap closers would help that. If you want to make people commit to a fight, I say try my idea.

We will end up with fkn i-frames and dudes shooting all over the field, desyncing. Elves were pretty OK pre-trink, pre-mastery, pre-armor pierce. I support taking away their passive speed boost, as I have posted for YEARS. Flat % boosts on certain things is dumb. The active speed boost skills are also dumb. There are a lot of areas that could be balanced. But the thing is even if veela had no movement speed bonus, no shouts, a good veela would still kite the shit out of you if they played right. Why? That's their design.

MO has something unique in fights. It's not just like everyone dashes into one point or someone is like SLOW HIM and everyone dashes in and blows him up. That's high skill, for sure, but it's much less dynamic than what MO has to offer.

 

[Iloros]

I appreciate that you considered it. I would say people stam out because they are bad or know it doesn't matter. Nobody stammed out like that in Mortal 1 because when you did you died. People will learn.

I agree that mages are different, but it has to do with a lot of other issues, like that they don't require stam to do dmg, they, if elves, can cast and regen stam faster, etc.

But look at how veela attribute spread is. They have low str and low con. They should not be highest stam. That is a development mistake. That's why I said some numbers need to be adjusted. You should need to spec sprinting, combat manu and endurance to kite well on a veela.

So imagine this:

out of combat speed and entering the fight, the veela is fast. If the veela wants to be able to always escape, maybe one hit or two hits then start thinking about creating a gap. OR if you think you can pressure more, you enter tier two which is like soft commitment, in that you could technically stam back up out of it and create a gap before you die. To hard confirm the kill, you will have to go into a place where you both will be roughly the same speed until someone dies.

To kill someone with a veela, you should be alternating between kiting, going in and whittling them, and then creating the gap again. Thus, a match up of a thursar and a veela in decent armor would be tough because the thur would regen probably half of the damage done.

This is a mechanical balance that affects the game on many levels (positively, imo.) The idea of gap closers and slows seem like a change in offense only. Do veelas also get slows and gap closers? Can they just gap close to their teammate and then run away? How big of a gap are we trying to close?

I think that it's an option, and it has been discussed for a loooong time. People would rage in MO1 when I talked about CC. I kind of get it, though. All CC is pro zerg, too. I think the mechanics of MO1 which, ideally, should involve a lot of running around the open world ON FOOT do allow for speed differences. It's not a MOBA or an extraction game.

They gave stam for parrying, which is cool. They went in on counter reduce, which I dunno how I feel about. Being able to gain stam for good plays and lose stam for bad plays and having stam matter seems like a much better route to take and see what happens.

You talk about chasing in a straight line for 90 seconds, but that's one of the only places that stam really matters in MO2.

As for mages, I dunno, I like the idea of lowering the effectiveness of self heal if you continue to do it, and I like the idea of making them lose chunks of stam for being hit while charging, since interrupt isn't happening anymore.

The fact that someone can keep an unclosable gap is not game breaking. It sucks for the chaser if they decide to chase, but your play style would be as a griefer / pet killer if you wanted to truly stay that safe. And I dunno how gap closers would help that. If you want to make people commit to a fight, I say try my idea.

We will end up with fkn i-frames and dudes shooting all over the field, desyncing. Elves were pretty OK pre-trink, pre-mastery, pre-armor pierce. I support taking away their passive speed boost, as I have posted for YEARS. Flat % boosts on certain things is dumb. The active speed boost skills are also dumb. There are a lot of areas that could be balanced. But the thing is even if veela had no movement speed bonus, no shouts, a good veela would still kite the shit out of you if they played right. Why? That's their design.

MO has something unique in fights. It's not just like everyone dashes into one point or someone is like SLOW HIM and everyone dashes in and blows him up. That's high skill, for sure, but it's much less dynamic than what MO has to offer.

Hard disagree, mo2 is also hard focus 1 person until they die, because burst dmg is high but so is healing, it's basically infinite and resets are too on those races that can reset meaning you gotta just st ick to one person burst them down so they die. Limits playstyles and strategies immensely.
If we add cc, and some antizerg, the meta shifts to something with way more variety and fun play. Rn almost nothing feels satisfying other than just killing the person because legit no combo matters lmao. You do a massive 80% dmg combo on a guy he jumps once and is full within 3 seconds cmon man, eventually down the road we 100% need CC, we need healing nerfs, but for now let's try to get A lvarin nerfs out of the way they are mandatory and the biggest deal rn there is nothing else you can play.

 

[Emdash]

They wanted it this way. I miss the burn em down part of MO1. You seen some vids of MO1 pvp? It's super nasty graphics, but it's just better.

I don't disagree with you, but I don't think CC is the answer. It will indeed change the game, but focusing someone because they overextend or dive is different than having 10 people all dashing to them. It'd be a diff game, which is cool. But if you want that game, go play it.

I fully support making MO balls 2 the wall adrenaline rush: faster, more dmg, etc. But I doubt it's gonna happen.

 

[Tom Flex]

I really think Emdash is onto something with the stamina management. Being fast is fine, but being able to zoom indefinitely while everyone else stams out is what’s breaking the game. There needs to be a real penalty for just running away the whole fight.

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

There is nothing wrong with the balance of dex. There is something wrong with percentage speed modifiers as clade gifts. This is the problem. This is why the elves are so broken. Could you image all the tears if the other races got a percentage modifier health, stamina, or damage bonus. The elf mains would lose their shit.

 

[Iloros]

They wanted it this way. I miss the burn em down part of MO1. You seen some vids of MO1 pvp? It's super nasty graphics, but it's just better.

I don't disagree with you, but I don't think CC is the answer. It will indeed change the game, but focusing someone because they overextend or dive is different than having 10 people all dashing to them. It'd be a diff game, which is cool. But if you want that game, go play it.

I fully support making MO balls 2 the wall adrenaline rush: faster, more dmg, etc. But I doubt it's gonna happen.

Well you just said no with 0 reasoning

 

[Iloros]

I really think Emdash is onto something with the stamina management. Being fast is fine, but being able to zoom indefinitely while everyone else stams out is what’s breaking the game. There needs to be a real penalty for just running away the whole fight.

Any nerf can work if done properly I am glad everyone agrees Alvarins are op

 

[Iloros]

There is nothing wrong with the balance of dex. There is something wrong with percentage speed modifiers as clade gifts. This is the problem. This is why the elves are so broken. Could you image all the tears if the other races got a percentage modifier health, stamina, or damage bonus. The elf mains would lose their shit.

Btw something you need to remember is that speed scales way better and people are willing to sacrifice way higher % of hp dmg or whatever other att point for dex.

You could go 25 dex lose like 5 to 6 percent speed from 90ish and just get 65 points but people do not do that

If you could go 25 con or str and lose just 5 percent hp or dmg everyone would do it.

Speed scales way better its like if Thursars on too of higher str got not 3% but 20% dmg modifier or defense modifier.

Its more complicated than that tho. There is nothing inherently wrong with the modifier its just that Alvarins are op and that speed modifier looks like a good nerf target really.

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

I'm not following what you are saying. 50+ dex has progressive demonishing returns with an increase in dex.

 

[Iloros]

I'm not following what you are saying. 50+ dex has progressive demonishing returns with an increase in dex.

In short people would go 25 str if you could just lose 5% dmg bonus by going 25 str (they lose way more tho) thats why only dex can do such a crazy low ratio of % combat stat (speed in this case) per attribute point yet remain almost always picked. 5% speed >>>>> 5% dmg/hp/magic defense

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

In short people would go 25 str if you could just lose 5% dmg bonus by going 25 str (they lose way more tho) thats why only dex can do such a crazy low ratio of % combat stat (speed in this case) per attribute point yet remain almost always picked. 5% speed >>>>> 5% dmg/hp/magic defense

Second image 25 dex. No trinkets. Add 10 HP for live version.
First image. Max theoretical movement speed + trinkets. Add 10 HP for live version. Add 22 stamina live version.

Probably the goat below.

 

[Iloros]

Second image 25 dex. No trinkets. Add 10 HP for live version.
First image. Max theoretical movement speed + trinkets. Add 10 HP for live version. Add 22 stamina live version.View attachment 6769
View attachment 6768
Probably the goat below.View attachment 6770

I dont get the point can you elaborate