Combat is boring round 2.

Teknique

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Jun 15, 2020
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This is a genuine question, this last line of 'we have a dictatorship of parry whores, zerglings, and noobs.' What would you use to describe yourself?

Because while you and I have the same view points, for the most part, I can tell you right now from dueling you and playing against you before your biggest advantage was playing on WiFi because it makes you lag out constantly.

Also, this isn't even a slate on you from MO1 but you were average at best. I genuinely do not recall a time where I thought "Man, Teknique did something really good there." or "Teknique's video was really enjoyable to watch."

Ever since MO2 has been available, it's like you suddenly sprung up into this position where you think you've figured everything out and know what is best and what isn't - when from my perspective I feel like this game has inflated a lot of peoples ego's and given people who used to not have little to no bravado to having an overflowing amount which then fuels directly into their opinions, biased or not.

I'm just wondering, from a purely curious standpoint, are you self aware of all of this or do you think MO2 is more skill based than MO1 and actually allows others to recognize that you are a skilled player? Cause from my point, spinning, hitting the ground, and spamming feints has almost little to no effect on most people unless you have ping absolutely on your side (Not to mention, the system inherently crutches everyone. It's like SV turned on the handicap mode for all players like seen in other games.)

But, with my questions out of the way I'll say this.

Games combat sucks fat cock and no one can convince me otherwise. The only people you'll ever see praising it are brown nosing SV for some special attention, it also goes to show when you have someone like Henrik openly say at times that 'Tyguy and HornyFurry are the best players' when that is such a blatantly mislead statement founded on ignorance of the playerbase. Especially for the bannable things they have done that everyone knows about.

What's even worse is that I fear what SV may do, now that they've given us an open statement of pushing persistent back, is they're going to wait last minute to actually change the combat. I hope I'm wrong but why is it we've gone what is it.. two patches now without combat changes? When there is clearly a problem with it. Still no magic either, still no race attributes being changed, still no fix on people hitting objects for instant parries / swings, etc.

My prediction is they'll wait last minute to do it, and then when it's in and is either worse or another problem altogether; we'll just have to deal with it.

I'd really like to be wrong.
I think we just have a difference of opinion on good, having impact on team fights is all I really care about.

I might just be a fan of my own work.

For example the mage video above where I missed like what less than 5 times, aoe'd the group and got at least one kill was that bad or was it good?

When I see regret have a death hand and it looks sloppy and then when I do this to him is it bad or is it good?


I mean obviously one kill doesn't matter but you get my point.

The video titled war above am I speed aiming or am I not?

Also are you able to fight a guild of smasher, regret, you guys, Kaue, perro, etc with the roster I was in? Are you going to upload that and show me how sick you are.
Actually are you going to upload ANYTHING and show me how sick you are? You had like what that one video where you killed a couple people in magefield?

I think its easier to be critical of my work when I upload pretty much every fight.

Are Kaue's 2 videos in the last 5 years better than all my stuff? To each their own.

I think I know exactly where I stand in terms of skill, I think i've said many times that i'm no where near a God.

If it takes someone 2 years to upload a fight how good were all the other fights in their 2 years? Better than mine apparently.

When I see something good i'll say it.


As for what i'd describe myself, probably a speed aimer with "good" crosshair placement.
 
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Handsome Young Man

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Jun 13, 2020
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I think we just have a difference of opinion on good, having impact on team fights is all I really care about.

I might just be a fan of my own work.

For example the mage video above where I missed like what less than 5 times, aoe'd the group and got at least one kill was that bad or was it good?

When I see regret have a death hand and it looks sloppy and then when I do this to him is it bad or is it good?


I mean obviously one kill doesn't matter but you get my point.

The video titled war above am I speed aiming or am I not?

Also are you able to fight a guild of smasher, regret, you guys, Kaue, perro, etc with the roster I was in? Are you going to upload that and show me how sick you are.
Actually are you going to upload ANYTHING and show me how sick you are? You had like what that one video where you killed a couple people in magefield?

I think its easier to be critical of my work when I upload pretty much every fight.

Are Kaue's 2 videos in the last 5 years better than all my stuff? To each their own.

I think I know exactly where I stand in terms of skill, I think i've said many times that i'm no where near a God.

If it takes someone 2 years to upload a fight how good were all the other fights in their 2 years? Better than mine apparently.

When I see something good i'll say it.
Yes.

 

Grasthard

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Nov 21, 2020
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1. Weapon swings that seem to land clearly short of me connect. This creates an issue where when I try to use tactics like footwork to avoid hits by say stepping backward when someone goes for a swing that seems too far away, I can't. Too many still land, enough that it can totally affect the outcome of a fight. I have to parry/block any blow that seems like it's coming from anywhere within the same dimension.

for me changing the FOV to the max fixed the issue, and I can much more consistently land hits now (while before I had the same issue of just swinging in the air)
 

Kaemik

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Nov 28, 2020
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for me changing the FOV to the max fixed the issue, and I can much more consistently land hits now (while before I had the same issue of just swinging in the air)
My Field of View appears to be at Max but it's the opposite issue. I'm not having issue landing hits so much as my enemies positioning isn't a very good predictor of if THEIR hit will land. A lot of fights where they swing at the air 2-3 feet infront of me from my perspective and then I get smacked for full damage.

Not a big issue when I am kiting and poking at them with a bow but it's a big issue in 2h vs. 2h fights when I want to let them swing, miss, then sprint forward and smash them with the attack I was holding. I have to drop my charged attack to parry even if I shouldn't need to parry because their attacks land when they don't seem like they should. When I start going for skilled plays like that I'm getting smacked for 50+ damage which means I have to be overcautious in parrying every single attack that comes my way.

Whether or not people can overcome it and do well despite having to forgo the use of certain tactics, that kind of stuff is a handicap and I don't want to focus on a style of combat I'm handicapped in, nor should the game focus around a style of combat like that. I'm fine with melee being in there, being kind of hard to play with a low ping, and being one build among many viable builds that have their own tactical place in the game.

But when I see people wanting the game balanced around melee, or HYM talking about how 70% of people should need to play melee and you shouldn't be able to play effectively if you have a high ping or are past your early 30s, I have to question if many of these people WANT the game to fail. Or more, they don't actually care if the game is successful so long as THEY can succeed in it.

So long as melee isn't a requirement to play the game viably though, and it's balanced with other roles, then melee should have some fun toys. Lets get in some berserker builds and fun shit that can really sing in the hands of a high reflex player once we get in all the roles and we know how that would affect balance. If we're sticking with one server where some people have to suffer super high pings and making melee the master build despite that... Then yeah lets fuck it up for these twitch monkeys. I want it grandfatherly slow at that point for the west coast / oceanic players and the greater than 50% of this game's pop that are 30+. Make it as slow as phalanxes actually were IRL. This is a game, and so is chess. Do what ever will be most fun for the greatest number of people.
 
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Handsome Young Man

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My Field of View appears to be at Max but it's the opposite issue. I'm not having issue landing hits so much as my enemies positioning isn't a very good predictor of if THEIR hit will land. A lot of fights where they swing at the air 2-3 feet infront of me from my perspective and then I get smacked for full damage.

Not a big issue when I am kiting and poking at them with a bow but it's a big issue in 2h vs. 2h fights when I want to let them swing, miss, then sprint forward and smash them with the attack I was holding. I have to drop my charged attack to parry even if I shouldn't need to parry because their attacks land when they don't seem like they should. When I start going for skilled plays like that I'm getting smacked for 50+ damage which means I have to be overcautious in parrying every single attack that comes my way.

Whether or not people can overcome it and do well despite having to forgo the use of certain tactics, that kind of stuff is a handicap and I don't want to focus on a style of combat I'm handicapped in, nor should the game focus around a style of combat like that. I'm fine with melee being in there, being kind of hard to play with a low ping, and being one build among many viable builds that have their own tactical place in the game.

But when I see people wanting the game balanced around melee, or HYM talking about how 70% of people should need to play melee and you shouldn't be able to play effectively if you have a high ping or are past your early 30s, I have to question if many of these people WANT the game to fail. Or more, they don't actually care if the game is successful so long as THEY can succeed in it.

So long as melee isn't a requirement to play the game viably though, and it's balanced with other roles, then melee should have some fun toys. Lets get in some berserker builds and fun shit that can really sing in the hands of a high reflex player once we get in all the roles and we know how that would affect balance. If we're sticking with one server where some people have to suffer super high pings and making melee the master build despite that... Then yeah lets fuck it up for these twitch monkeys. I want it grandfatherly slow at that point for the west coast / oceanic players and the greater than 50% of this game's pop that are 30+. Make it as slow as phalanxes actually were IRL. This is a game, and so is chess. Do what ever will be most fun for the greatest number of people.
I love how I'm being misquoted and then having made up 'wants' put onto me.

Any player wanting to play for skill-sakes would know MO2 is sadly out of place as it comforts smooth brained players such as yourself.

"its a game." "chess is a game" "this needs to be like real life."

Go join the IMCF and see how long you want to do it lol, cause that's what you're clearly wanting; not a game.
 

Kaemik

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I love how I'm being misquoted and then having made up 'wants' put onto me.
But when I see people wanting the game balanced around melee, or HYM talking about how 70% of people should need to play melee and you shouldn't be able to play effectively if you have a high ping or are past your early 30s, I have to question if many of these people WANT the game to fail. Or more, they don't actually care if the game is successful so long as THEY can succeed in it.
Mortal Online is never going to mimic the real world 1:1 and you're never going to see superior 'tactical depth' trump twitch skill.

It's going to be groups that are composed of people from their teens to early thirties who work together really well, have good twitch skill, and communicate accordingly. That is who will be winning the majority of the fights in PvP - because it's a game. Not some tactical, real life simulation for a medieval battlegrounds.
Handsome Young Man said:
Might hate me for saying it, but I don't think SV should worry about balancing combat speeds around people with super high ping.
Foot fighters are fundamentally the most important role in any type of scenario.
How am I misquoting you? You believe that in order to be successful you should have a low ping and young reflexes in a global game with a single server and where 50%+ of the population are over 30+.

These are your words. You've said these same general things many times.

I want the game to allow for twitch skill in certain builds but have a much greater emphasis on tactical gameplay and certain builds that require less twitch skill just as MO1 did. One of us has a set of desires that is realistic for launching this game to a level it will have thousands of players as SV states they want. One of us does not.

You seem to think bringing strategy and depth into a game clearly focused on realism and immersion is inherently bad and not "game" like for some reason. I think treating a global, single server, fantasy MMO like a Call of Duty is inherently bad. It demonstrates an acute unawareness for who the target market for these types of games are. You think they made it so you need spreadsheets to figure out the best methods for refining metals, or a fishing system where you set lure depth/line type/bait/rod type, or an alchemy/cooking system with nearly infinite possible combinations because they want fantasy Counterstrike? There is a reason you found the last game's combat balance so disappointing. You aren't Mortal Online's target market. This game is made for people like me who seek immersion and depth.
 
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Eldrath

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The people who go on the forum are on average the older part of the community, because it is a style of communication those in their 30s have grown up with. So that poll is worthless and misleading. Not to mention that being above 30 in no way means that you can´t play competive shooters on a decent level.

Even if you turned up MO2 to the highest possible speed - without breaking - it would still be miles behind something like Quake on a LAN party in terms of reaction time required.

Furthermore MO2 will have noobtubes (pets, magic) for people who are too slow or too stoned to take part in a twitch based combat. There is literally no reason to design the part of MO that is NOT supposed to be a noobtube around those players. All you do is limit your playerbase. Limiting your playerbase in a game that is already in an extreme niche is foolish. Especially considering that SV already knows that those players exist and would pay and play. Because they have done so in Mortal 1.

But when safe zones and gear based combat was pushed (mount patch onwards) the game went of a steady decline in terms of population. There was not sudden rush of 30+ year olds that couldn´t handle skillbased combat to make up for those that left. There is no reason to believe that doing the exact same thing will lead to a different result.

----

Now that this is out of the way I would like to point to my thread:

This was from november but I don´t think any of the changes made in the last few patches have changed the basic problem. Something like reducing the total amount of stamina available by 30 have probably changed the dynamic towards having higher numbers. Speed is not the only variable that can increase the skill ceiling and I think it´s important we keep in mind that SV might stand on their current approach. For this we have to present them with alternative ideas to rise the skill ceiling to a degree where individual and group skill can shine and outwin over gear and numbers.

Some ideas that have been brougth forward were:
Reducing blocking arcs
Increasing stamina regeneration/reducing cost for charging swings
Increased damage output with lower healing values

Additionally SV seems to be cooking up something on their test server according to Seb. So we might see a change in a few days. I´ll reserve my specific feedback till then.
 

Kaemik

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Not to mention that being above 30 in no way means that you can´t play competive shooters on a decent level.
Take that up with your buddy HYM. He's the one who said nobody past their early 30s should be able to compete viably. The results of the poll are not unquestionable but there are more extensive studies that shows both MMO and RPG players skew older. You're deluding yourself if you think this game's audience is a bunch of young people looking for super twitchy gameplay.

Furthermore MO2 will have noobtubes (pets, magic) for people who are too slow or too stoned to take part in a twitch based combat. There is literally no reason to design the part of MO that is NOT supposed to be a noobtube around those players. All you do is limit your playerbase. Limiting your playerbase in a game that is already in an extreme niche is foolish. Especially considering that SV already knows that those players exist and would pay and play. Because they have done so in Mortal 1.
This is why I said I'm perfectly fine with melee combat being fast and reflex based so long as it isn't "fundamentally the most important role in any type of scenario". Any truth to that statement would represent an absolute failure at proper game balance IMO. It should be one of many viable options. And everyone living on the west coast US / Oceanic area isn't an extreme niche. It's a significant portion of the player base.

Once the other roles make it into game and we can start testing how team fights are really going to feel in MO2 I'd like to see it made better if it's not good at that point (Good meaning a viable choice, not the obvious choice for 50-70% of every group like HYM says he wants). And that could very well include some glass cannon melee builds that feel a lot more fast paced. I'm not in favor of making massive changes to stamina or damage output based on how it feels when to tanks in fullplate fight eachother though. That SHOULD feel slow. Do you know how bad damage feels on a bow right now?

It's awful. But I don't take to every thread to whine about it, because I realize that I'm shooting a bunch of high strength, high con, max armor training characters. If the damage output didn't feel bad that actually would be a sign of a problem. Once you have hybrids gearing down to get more mana gains, and tanks getting thunderlashed, and archers having mages to shoot at, TTK is going to feel very different in this game. For melee and every other role.
 
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Eldrath

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Take that up with your buddy HYM. He's the one who said nobody past their early 30s should be able to compete viably. The results of the poll are not unquestionable but there are more extensive studies that shows both MMO and RPG players skew older. You're deluding yourself if you think this game's audience is a bunch of young people looking for super twitchy gameplay.



This is why I said I'm perfectly fine with melee combat being fast and reflex based so long as it isn't "fundamentally the most important role in any type of scenario". It should be one of many viable options. And everyone living on the west coast US / Oceanic area isn't an extreme niche. It's a significant portion of the player base.

Once the other roles make it into game and we can start testing how team fights are really going to feel in MO2 I'd like to see it made better if it's not good at that point (Good meaning a viable choice, not the obvious choice for 50-70% of every group like HYM says he wants). And that could very well include some glass cannon melee builds that feel a lot more fast paced. I'm not in favor of making massive changes to stamina or damage output based on how it feels when to tanks in fullplate fight eachother though. That SHOULD feel slow. Do you know how bad damage feels on a bow right now?

It's awful. But I don't take to every thread to whine about it, because I realize that I'm shooting a bunch of high strength, high con, max armor training characters. If the damage output didn't feel bad that actually would be a sign of a problem. Once you have hybrids gearing down to get more mana gains, and tanks getting thunderlashed, and archers having mages to shoot at, TTK is going to feel very different in this game. For melee and every other role.
Being above 30 does not exclude you from playing competetive shooters. It excludes you from competing on a PROFESSIONAL level - aka earning your money that way.

The niche that I am talking about is defined by full loot, forced first person, twitch(action) based combat that is skillbased, no safe zones (can be killed /stolen from anywhere) and the lack of hand holding features. Yes, there are skills you level, there is lore and there is materials you can grind, but those are not defining attributes of MO2 genre. If you asked me today I would say that Mortal is much closer to Rust than WoW. It´s about what makes MO2 unique, not what make it common place.

It´s basically a blend of Morrowind (first person, lore, no hand holding), rust (PvP, building, competetive PvE) with combat games like Chivalry as an MMO. It´s a very small portion of the online PC gamers that will be attracted to this. Someone going through the paces of regular MMOs (quests, organised consensual gear based PvP) or playing skyrim following the nicely lit up path up the mountain is most likely not gonna cope with it.

So, no I´m not deluding myself. The audience of Mortal is a very specific subset, which is why it will always be in a niche. Gamers that want a game to skill - not gear - based are a big part of it. For that you need - among other things - twitch based combat. Turning away those players did not work out the first time and it won´t work this time.

---

Your whole paragraph about tanks and how we can test things when magic/mounts/more stuff comes in is fundamentally flawed.

1. People are already using lighter armors or just fight naked - not only "tanks". So we know how combat plays out with light armors. Spoiler: it´s still centered around parry whoring.

2. We are here to give feedback now, not 1 week before release or whenever magic/mounts make it into game. That is a highly impractical approach. Everyone who is arguing with you is aware that combat healing, magic damage and mounteds will change some dynamics. We all have extended experience with this, cause we played the first game for hundreds of hours. The combined arms approach is not new to us and we can make educated guesses on how the current melee combat will interact with it. Not to mention that it would be a good idea to make it viable and fun without magic/mounts/pets in the first place.

3. rock/paper/scissors is a terrible way to design combat in a sandbox. You basically negate the point of an open skill tree and skillbased combat. You force players into roles to fit certain situation and have them become powerless in others. Choosing a set up for a character and the tools he can work with should improve your odds in certain situations, not determine the outcome by a large margin. It also negates the concept of a skill ceiling and noob tubes when a rock meets a scissor.

4. Bows have problems, damage isn´t really one of them. Going by the past we will have different arrow type that will perform better against heavy armors. See 1. you can already see how they work against light armored characters. They are decent. Especially considering that SV hasn´t activated the archery related skills, but all melee skills are activated.

5. You talk about tanks. You know that before the change to clades we had 20 HP and 30 stamina more right? And that we had steel plate armor that weight 0? You realize that all this has changed?

6. Please elaborate what a glass cannon melee fighter would look like.
 

Kaemik

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1. Try a bow. I'm guessing anyone gearing down is doing so because they are confident in their skills but bows hit a lot harder when your target armors down and they can't parry that.

2. We're here to test bugs. Not balance a system missing all but one of its roles. Balancing melee against melee is a bad idea but I've explained that point ad nauseam so if you want to hear why again refer to my previous posts.

3. That's like, your opinion man. But one thing that isn't opinion is it absolutely doesn't negate open skilltrees. Open skilltrees allow for more versatile builds so you can choose to diversify a bit more to avoid hard counters. For instance, if you're a light lancer and the counter to that is polearms, but you use some points to fit mounted archery into your build then you're now the counter to your own counter. And if the pikeman also has archery then they can counter both your combat styles as well. But you're a bit weaker of a lancer than some guy that goes full melee. Or you don't have heals like that guy who's a lancer hybrid. Or if your horse dies you don't fight on foot as well as that guy who put points into foot movement.

There is still freedom of builds. There is still room for "skill". But true skill means using your brain and your reflexes. Not just your reflexes.

4. Bows don't have problems. You're right. That was my point. They only feel bad when everyone you fight wears heavy armor and that's not realistic to the way the game will actually play. They do feel good on the relatively few people with light armor. Sounds like you found the answer to your point 1 just like I did.

5. None of that is very significant compared to the differences between light armor and heavy armor. See your own point about bows for reference. The plate with the weight of 0 is perhaps the most worthless. 26 weight armor currently has full movement speed and 75% stam regen. What does armor weight mean when everyone has 100+ STR/CON and full armor training?

6. I mentioned it earlier in this topic. Amanita muscaria is the mushroom eaten by berserkers to send them into a rage. It's also in-game. Make it or a potion created from it send people into a berseker rage. Give armor significantly higher stam penalties when you're in a berserker rage but cause the rage to make you wreck fucking shit. Including damage partially bypassing parries as though it were a block instead of a parry. This means you're in super light armor if you actually want the stam to do anything (Fitting given Kallard armor is the lightest set currently implemented). You're vulnerable to melees who land their attacks on you, vulnerable to archers. I wouldn't make it increase magic vulnerability though, in fact I might even cause it to give a temp phyche boost since you would be so incredibly weak to archers already. Now if someone tries to "parry whore" you, your relentless attack will eventually kill them anyway. It forces anyone fighting you into a position of kill or be killed.

Sounds right up the alley of a player who is highly impressed with their own skill. Though we all know anyone who actually wants a skillcap they can never reach can always play a mounted archer anyway. Literally nothing could be a hard-counter to a MA whose reached their skillcap. Even the traditional counter of foot-archers will struggle against an MA who has exceptionally high accuracy while moving full speed.
 
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Eldrath

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We are here to provide feedback as well - not just to test bugs. You are certainly providing lots of feedback. Sadly it´s from a biased and uninformed perspective.

I don´t see anything in your post worth responding to. Except that you seem to misunderstand the rules of rock/paper/scissors. The point of it being that rock always beats scrissors.

To those reading the thread it´s always worthwhile looking at what people like that respond TO, and what they ignore.
 

Kaemik

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Rock/Paper/Scissors is the derogatory term some of you are using to describe what I said I wanted. Counters and tactics. So if you're acknowledging what I'm arguing for isn't rock/paper/scissors, then you seem to be withdrawing your argument you have a problem with it?
 

Handsome Young Man

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How am I misquoting you? You believe that in order to be successful you should have a low ping and young reflexes in a global game with a single server and where 50%+ of the population are over 30+.

These are your words. You've said these same general things many times.

I want the game to allow for twitch skill in certain builds but have a much greater emphasis on tactical gameplay and certain builds that require less twitch skill just as MO1 did. One of us has a set of desires that is realistic for launching this game to a level it will have thousands of players as SV states they want. One of us does not.

You seem to think bringing strategy and depth into a game clearly focused on realism and immersion is inherently bad and not "game" like for some reason. I think treating a global, single server, fantasy MMO like a Call of Duty is inherently bad. It demonstrates an acute unawareness for who the target market for these types of games are. You think they made it so you need spreadsheets to figure out the best methods for refining metals, or a fishing system where you set lure depth/line type/bait/rod type, or an alchemy/cooking system with nearly infinite possible combinations because they want fantasy Counterstrike? There is a reason you found the last game's combat balance so disappointing. You aren't Mortal Online's target market. This game is made for people like me who seek immersion and depth.
You're actually stupid. Arguing anything with someone as ignorant as you is pointless.

Claims I said you cant be competitive unless you meet my 'standards' even though I stated tactical depth isn't going to trump twitch skill and mechanical knowledge in MO. I know that cause I played MO1 and there wasn't much tactics to be head, but then again this guy spits out information like he knows everything yet has been quoted and admitted several times (NOT ACTUALLY MOSQUOTING HIM) he doesn't have first hand experience with things and just took the word of others as fact.

Foot fighters are the most fundamentally important role for numerous reasons you'd know but you clearly didn't play or not long enough.

Also, yeah. Someone in their teens to the age of 30 is probably going to have better mechanical skill on average then people above the age of 30. That isn't even a knock on age that's just factual given esports is usually dominated by that age span I gave lol.

Anyone who thinks you are even remotely reasonable or worth listening to should go back and read how you are ill prepared in debating things you know nothing about when you continually to impose this retarded idea that things should just be extremely easy for everyone and immersion is what is important.

MO just isn't the game for you bud, hopefully you stick around so I can grief you out.
 
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Ori

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Would be fun to see best MO1 PvP guys being rekt hard in DFO :D
It already happened, It was a long time ago so can't be sure on name (think it was AQ) but I know it was the top guild of MO went to DF and lasted about a month after being completely destroyed and pretty much forced out of the game.
 

Kaemik

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At this point your doing the same circular dance Valoran does.

Write down your "counter" concept in two sentences and I´ll consider responding.
I mean you made 6 points and I addressed YOUR points individually. But I'll condense my main points for you.

1. "Balancing" melee against melee could potentially nerf builds meant to counter / get quick TTK on a melee. For instance, mages have to gear down for good mana regen and deal with mana in general, so they should be able to kill melees faster with consistent Tlash hits than melees smashing each other in the face while dealing with block/parry/armor. TTK is an issue that should be ignored until all roles and skill/attribute caps are implemented.

2. Counters are more than rock/paper/scissors and there is nothing ungamey about them. They encourage more creative builds, immerse people deeper into the game by being more realistic, focus on teamwork over individual skill, and are more universally enjoyed by a greater number of players than a sole focus on skillshots and swordplay.