The only way to balance Dex and Healing without having to rebalance PVE is to add new mechanics.

[fartbox]

Prior to combat abilities I lobbied for 3 types of mechanics that would balance dex and healing. I think enough time has passed now that I can present my argument again on why we need these mechanics and why without them a state of balance is not possible in the presence of speed disparity and self healing.

The mechanics we need:

1. Healing debuffs (Grievous wounds): First and foremost we need a long standing melee applied debuff that can be applied to targets that will reduce the effectiveness of healing on that target.

2. Gap closers: A high cost/high cooldown gap closer. We need a way for non dex classes to have kill threat on dex classes, especially when the dex class has been involved in extended trading. It should be harder to reset the fight the longer you have been fighting.

3. Slows: We need a high cost, high cooldown way to slow characters down, especially in the context of extended trades. It should be harder to reset the fight the longer you have been fighting with someone.


Without these mechanics the only other way to balance dex and heal creep is by tweaking the numbers. Either mana costs, or healing output or dex to speed ratio, but changing any of these will result in the disruption of razor thin PVE margins; namely for endgame solo PVE, and since that is the basis of the foodchain and ecosystem disrupting this delicate PVE balance could only hurt the playerbase.

That is why i am urging Starvault to reconsider and balance the game with new mechanics rather then their traditional route of tweaking numbers or build paths.

 

[Emdash]

I think you can keep elves as speedy glass cannons, but they have to fix some of the number aspects as well.

To me, gap closers are simply speed skills, which elves already have. I would like the game without speed skills, but if an elf is using a speed skill and they still get closed on, that is a waste on both sides.

I would prefer to see stamina matter more. People have come up with many many ideas of how to balance speed, but we have seen stamina become a very neglected 'resource' in regards to skill based play. I would like to see different clades react differently to having low stam.

Make it so that people run slightly slower at a certain point (different based on clade,) make them run MUCH slower when stammed to a certain point, until they stam up above a certain point.

There are many, many things that are making elves (cuz it's not dex. Lean khur is cool but not so great haha) hard to deal with they all must be addressed. Some of them are game mechanics and general power creep when % speed boost stayed the same. Some of them are just how their clades work, like resting pulse is really strong. It probably needs a limitation, like IF you haven't been hit for x amount of time.

It might sound like I am remaking the game, too, but I think it's much closer to MO style than what you are suggesting.

Make elf a class that requires a high level of stam management, not just a class that can zoom around regardless. There is a way to fix this, imo, but people need to use their brains and be creative.

I am getting fatigued trying to make these sorts of posts.

Due to having the highest speed, elves should be the highest skill ceiling class, not something everyone rolls. You should be able to punish a bad elf.

 

[fartbox]

I completely agree and Im glad people are waking up to the fact that Alvarins are way too strong compared to other races however I don't see how number tweaking would hit PVE that hard. Right now Alvarin footies and mages freefarm dungeons like nothing in shit gear. Nerf to mages ability to freefarm is needed and both tweak in heals from LH and Gh and bandage wouldnt make anything thats not OP now weaker. Thursara will pve just fine, Oghmirs always were bad but wouldnt be hurt much and humans also can pve well it will mostly nerf Sheevras and fatmage isnt even a real foot class and is troll solo due to many other reasons already.

So I think while mechanics would be my preference aswell Id like a few weapons to get a slow (sword sprar) a few to get a stun (hammers) and a few to get a hook (axes poleaxes) and some other CC or gap closers I think its genuinely too much to ask of SV for now this is an emergency elves are like 80% of pop and need instant hotfix its already bleeding the sarduca hype.

Nerf Alvarin 2.5% passive speed bonus. Nerf Alvarin sight remove it matter of fact.
Remove all their stamima flat bonuses and % modifier bonuses. And they will be an assasin that might escape.

They have easily second or maybe even first place in overall damage. They get weakspots armor pierce more stam light stam weapons best bow users by far they are not jokes anymore with nerfed daggers where you only had to parry down and they never kill or bows that have 0 abilities and no armor pierce fighting thursars with adamant and fatmages that cant be interrupted.

They are straight assasins now their dmg and kill pressure is the scariest and they have a lot of HP due to trinkets masteries and flat HP buffs. An Alvarin footie geared out has 230 HP now. Alvarin sheevra mages get to 200 easy if they want to.

You cant get this much combat power on top of just being able tp always leave meele and outstam everyone.

I was talking about objectives that solo players can contest:

UC
Vessel
Trolls
Queens
Bay Wafa Warlord

At least two of these fights are finishing the fight with under 20mana. If they adjust mana to health values or potentially even dex it would likely make at least two of these impossible which could only hurt the ecosystem. If you want to see how popular group only objectives are vs solo potential objectives then go stand at Ultimeki and count how many hours it takes until you see someone. Most of the time the objectives on this list are completed by groups, but it being possible for solo players is important to build the ecosystem and drive traffic/engagement to these objectives.

Solo player>small group>big group

MMO habitats have alot in common with simulated natural habitats like vivarium's, which are self contained natural environments that people often keep in their homes for entertainment and if you build one in your home you will notice one thing quickly or all your animals will die. You need the bottom of the food chain to thrive for the top of the food chain to thrive.

I don't think its possible to truly balance speed without incorporating the mechanics I listed in my first post regardless. So hopefully SV considers this carefully, the tweaking of numbers might look attractive as an easy fix but if it doesn't actually fix the problem and it alienates the bottom of the ecosystem on top, it could only hurt the game, not help it.

 

[Emdash]

I was talking about objectives that solo players can contest:

UC
Vessel
Trolls
Queens
Bay Wafa Warlord

At least two of these fights are finishing the fight with under 20mana. If they adjust mana to health values or potentially even dex it would likely make at least two of these impossible which could only hurt the ecosystem. If you want to see how popular group only objectives are vs solo potential objectives then go stand at Ultimeki and count how many hours it takes until you see someone. Most of the time the objectives on this list are completed by groups, but it being possible for solo players is important to build the ecosystem and drive traffic/engagement to these objectives.

Solo player>small group>big group

MMO habitats have alot in common with simulated natural habitats like vivarium's, which are self contained natural environments that people often keep in their homes for entertainment and if you build one in your home you will notice one thing quickly or all your animals will die. You need the bottom of the food chain to thrive for the top of the food chain to thrive.

I don't think its possible to truly balance speed without incorporating the mechanics I listed in my first post regardless. So hopefully SV considers this carefully, the tweaking of numbers might look attractive as an easy fix but if it doesn't actually fix the problem and it alienates the bottom of the ecosystem on top, it could only hurt the game, not help it.

considering I agree with your thesis: "It should be harder to reset the fight the longer you have been fighting with someone," what is wrong with the idea of tying it to stam and making stam matter? Then we don't need dashes and CC.

 

[fartbox]

considering I agree with your thesis: "It should be harder to reset the fight the longer you have been fighting with someone," what is wrong with the idea of tying it to stam and making stam matter? Then we don't need dashes and CC.

What happens in a real fight is that both players eventually stam out and the player with the lighter armor and less/no stamina to damage conversion and who has a higher base speed auto wins the stam war, this is exactly how mages auto win against stout Veelas in open fields. Also chasing someone for 90 seconds in a straight line until they stam out and you stam out is poor gameplay.

Gap closers and slows are necessary to balance speed disparity and I will defend this position indefinitely. When I first asked Starvault to add them the game, the Elf to player ratio was much less then it is now. Now that the full scope of the problem has been visualized by the players and the company my argument is even more credible.


I can't think of a single PVP game that has speed disparity that also does not have these mechanics. However after adding these mechanics you could even give Dex characters more speed or other types of buffs as there will be counterplay to it besides a mounted.

Gap closers and slows should have both a high adrenaline and stamina cost, they should not be auto win buttons against elves but they should serve as a tool that slower characters can use to force a elf to attempt multiple resets before success. Right now Dex vs Non Dex: its 1 jump, gap, heal after any bad trade; punishment free, risk free, bad for the game.

 

[Emdash]

What happens in a real fight is that both players eventually stam out and the player with the lighter armor and less/no stamina to damage conversion and who has a higher base speed auto wins the stam war, this is exactly how mages auto win against stout Veelas in open fields. Also chasing someone for 90 seconds in a straight line until they stam out and you stam out is poor gameplay.

I appreciate that you considered it. I would say people stam out because they are bad or know it doesn't matter. Nobody stammed out like that in Mortal 1 because when you did you died. People will learn.

I agree that mages are different, but it has to do with a lot of other issues, like that they don't require stam to do dmg, they, if elves, can cast and regen stam faster, etc.

But look at how veela attribute spread is. They have low str and low con. They should not be highest stam. That is a development mistake. That's why I said some numbers need to be adjusted. You should need to spec sprinting, combat manu and endurance to kite well on a veela.

So imagine this:

out of combat speed and entering the fight, the veela is fast. If the veela wants to be able to always escape, maybe one hit or two hits then start thinking about creating a gap. OR if you think you can pressure more, you enter tier two which is like soft commitment, in that you could technically stam back up out of it and create a gap before you die. To hard confirm the kill, you will have to go into a place where you both will be roughly the same speed until someone dies.

To kill someone with a veela, you should be alternating between kiting, going in and whittling them, and then creating the gap again. Thus, a match up of a thursar and a veela in decent armor would be tough because the thur would regen probably half of the damage done.

This is a mechanical balance that affects the game on many levels (positively, imo.) The idea of gap closers and slows seem like a change in offense only. Do veelas also get slows and gap closers? Can they just gap close to their teammate and then run away? How big of a gap are we trying to close?

I think that it's an option, and it has been discussed for a loooong time. People would rage in MO1 when I talked about CC. I kind of get it, though. All CC is pro zerg, too. I think the mechanics of MO1 which, ideally, should involve a lot of running around the open world ON FOOT do allow for speed differences. It's not a MOBA or an extraction game.

They gave stam for parrying, which is cool. They went in on counter reduce, which I dunno how I feel about. Being able to gain stam for good plays and lose stam for bad plays and having stam matter seems like a much better route to take and see what happens.

You talk about chasing in a straight line for 90 seconds, but that's one of the only places that stam really matters in MO2.

As for mages, I dunno, I like the idea of lowering the effectiveness of self heal if you continue to do it, and I like the idea of making them lose chunks of stam for being hit while charging, since interrupt isn't happening anymore.

The fact that someone can keep an unclosable gap is not game breaking. It sucks for the chaser if they decide to chase, but your play style would be as a griefer / pet killer if you wanted to truly stay that safe. And I dunno how gap closers would help that. If you want to make people commit to a fight, I say try my idea.

We will end up with fkn i-frames and dudes shooting all over the field, desyncing. Elves were pretty OK pre-trink, pre-mastery, pre-armor pierce. I support taking away their passive speed boost, as I have posted for YEARS. Flat % boosts on certain things is dumb. The active speed boost skills are also dumb. There are a lot of areas that could be balanced. But the thing is even if veela had no movement speed bonus, no shouts, a good veela would still kite the shit out of you if they played right. Why? That's their design.

MO has something unique in fights. It's not just like everyone dashes into one point or someone is like SLOW HIM and everyone dashes in and blows him up. That's high skill, for sure, but it's much less dynamic than what MO has to offer.

 

[Emdash]

They wanted it this way. I miss the burn em down part of MO1. You seen some vids of MO1 pvp? It's super nasty graphics, but it's just better.

I don't disagree with you, but I don't think CC is the answer. It will indeed change the game, but focusing someone because they overextend or dive is different than having 10 people all dashing to them. It'd be a diff game, which is cool. But if you want that game, go play it.

I fully support making MO balls 2 the wall adrenaline rush: faster, more dmg, etc. But I doubt it's gonna happen.

 

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I really think Emdash is onto something with the stamina management. Being fast is fine, but being able to zoom indefinitely while everyone else stams out is what’s breaking the game. There needs to be a real penalty for just running away the whole fight.

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

There is nothing wrong with the balance of dex. There is something wrong with percentage speed modifiers as clade gifts. This is the problem. This is why the elves are so broken. Could you image all the tears if the other races got a percentage modifier health, stamina, or damage bonus. The elf mains would lose their shit.

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

I'm not following what you are saying. 50+ dex has progressive demonishing returns with an increase in dex.

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

In short people would go 25 str if you could just lose 5% dmg bonus by going 25 str (they lose way more tho) thats why only dex can do such a crazy low ratio of % combat stat (speed in this case) per attribute point yet remain almost always picked. 5% speed >>>>> 5% dmg/hp/magic defense

Second image 25 dex. No trinkets. Add 10 HP for live version.
First image. Max theoretical movement speed + trinkets. Add 10 HP for live version. Add 22 stamina live version.

Probably the goat below.

 

[Emdash]

Well you just said no with 0 reasoning

I dunno about all that.

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

I dont get the point can you elaborate

Highlighting how broken alvarin are. You get a 10 points speed buff for having 25 dex by just being an elf. This propagates up for the dumbest combos possible.

 

[Emdash]

I do

got some AI for ya. It's goin to summarize my posts.

• Elves should remain fast "glass cannons," but the numerical aspects of balance need improvement.
• Gap closers are considered speed skills; elves already possess these, and their effectiveness needs reevaluation.
• Stamina should play a more significant role in gameplay; currently, it is overlooked as a resource.
• Suggests that different elf clades should exhibit varying reactions to low stamina, impacting speed.
• Players should experience slightly reduced speed at certain stamina levels, with significant reductions at critical lows.
• Current game mechanics and power creep issues need addressing to balance elf efficiency.
• Proposes limiting strong abilities, such as "resting pulse," based on being hit within a certain timeframe.
• Advocates for a high stamina management requirement for elves, rather than simply being fast.
• Emphasizes the need for creativity in addressing these game balance challenges.
• Believes elves should have the highest skill ceiling, allowing for accountability for poor player performance.

____

• The veela character is characterized by high speed in combat, requiring strategic movement to create a gap for escapes or attacks.
• A veela can alternately kite and close distance to wear down opponents, but matches against tough armor characters like the thursar challenge this strategy due to the thursar’s damage regeneration.
• Game balance is influenced by mechanics such as gap closers and slows, with discussions surrounding whether veelas possess similar abilities.
• The dynamics of combat should prioritize fluid, on-foot movement rather than fixed roles, contrasting with typical MOBA or extraction gameplay.
• The introduction of stamina rewards for successful counters and penalties for mistakes could enhance gameplay complexity and encourage careful play.
• Proposed changes to mage mechanics include reducing self-heal effectiveness and imposing stamina costs during spell charging to address balance issues.
• While maintaining an unclosable gap can frustrate chasers, it does not fundamentally break the game; strategic commitments to fights could be encouraged.
• The unique nature of fights in MO offers greater dynamics beyond simple rush tactics, showcasing a variety of skill-based plays compared to traditional combat designs.

 

[Jackdstripper]

Alvarians were balanced at the beginning of MO2, when the max dex you could get was only around 125, and to get that speed you had to sacrifice a lot if damage and hp.

But then SV had to introduce masteries/trinkets/abilities and allow people to add dex on top of dex and make their clades go faster and last longer while also hit way harder on their burst damage, while also wearing top armor. Where is the downside?

And now we are back to MO1 imbalance where speed is king. Most vheelas have 220hp, and hit very hard with daggers abilities and armor piercing clades.

The problems isnt the fact that its hard to balance, the problem is that SV doesn't give a shit about balance. Even when they have it, they go out if their way to fuck it up.

 

[Emdash]

Yeah I remember they were all in khurite splinted and dealt 15 dmg per hit literally,

That was my favorite time. The people who you guys hate that are alv are people who rolled onto alv when they started to be OP. Part of it was just that people can't understand how a lite armor character that can deal teen damage to steel could be good, and it took them awhile to figure that out, but part of it was just that they kept benefiting more and more from changes.

There needs to be a deep balance. I really think the idea of making stam matter is good, but the numbers are off. The might even want some hard caps at this point.

The thing is... like A thursar is stronger than ever, a thur with max dmg, max trinket dmg, +4 str, etc... that ends up being as big of a boost as an alvarin gets in speed, but the curve is different. If there were 100 dmg weapons that only thurs could use, that would be like what we have with elves. I don't advocate for that, but I am just saying that the 'numbers' work out, but in practice, they made alv viable as a fighter and with their other abilities, that was too much.

The flat bonus is big, sure, but +4 mastery dex is strong, too. means you can get 131 lean. Dude dex used to be capped at like 130 or something.

130 dex just different than... 130 int, 130 str... etc. It offers too many advantages, even outside of speed. Stam, why does dex give stam?? haha.

People got mad because they couldn't kill as elves or wear steel, whatever. It's stupid. Need to rework shit from the ground up. NOT add CC. Cuz then you get the same game with CC and dashes. So all the imbalances remain, but the way the game plays changes, for the worse imo.

 

[Rahz]

Balance just isn't a priority for SV.
If it were, they would have done some common sense stuff a long time ago ( i also didn't touch this clusterf*** in quite some time)
Not gonna go into detail, but
In most games 70% damage reduction is top of the line, in MO2 it's totally basic and a lot of damage is balanced around that...poor horses
Dexterity should be the only source of movement speed ( i say that as a dexmage, i don't wanna play a short kinda fat elf that bug-equips their shield while sprinting....it's hilariously bad)
In most games Archery, Melee and Magic can ..and I know this might sound unbelievable... INTERACT WITH ONE ANOTHER IN OTHER WAYS THAN DOING DMG TO EACH OTHER.
Blocking arrows is a waste of time ( Heavy Armor is enough)
Spells can't be blocked
Melee attacks can't be interrupted/blocked by Magic. So we can click at each other for damage, what amazing next gen combat that is
It makes the fighting suck. I attack first, I win is the depth of the combat when it's not footie v footie. (when i left mage vs mage was cast spurt first to interrupt, then spurt, repeat...win)
Mounted Archery is only "balanced" by doing little damage. It's mechanically OP (more mobility than anyone else + more range than everyone else..so they balanced it by making it suck) and MA isn't the only mechanically OP thing (AoE spells, Im sure some combat abilities, towershields, stat-stacking )
The clades are balanced around pretty much ONE BUILD that is a lot better than all the other options.
You can't balance classes like:
This class wins at melee, this class regenerates mana with 87% efficiency in full plate armor, this class runs away, this class turns around in a corner and starts wasting everyones time....
This is what happens if you degrade "vision" into a buzzword to soothe players/investors.
Sorry for the rant, I hope you can still get some fun out of this "game".

 

[Rahz]

I agree with most points other than you heavily underestimating how much damage bows do both MA and foot archers are op right now post archery bugfix (all defenses stacked 2x vs bow dmg for some reason for 3 years in the game LOL) now they do comfortable 30 through steel, and alvarins can pop armor pierce and do comfortable 40 through steel (NOT TO HEAD) not to mention weakspots. However there are tons of houses and shit around to a point where you can just run into them vs ranged characters and coutner them with that, in Sarducaa we gonna get mogged to death by ranged characters till zergs build infrastructure every 10 meters. You'll see

Urgh...Noone at SV plays the game and it shows.
Llike I said, I haven't touched this game in a while. I was kinda expecting Archery to get OP at some point, as it was bound to be, as soon as it does some decent damage.
Never liked the Armor penetration skill. It has always been a much too narrow, very bad bandaid fix.
The Zerg housing was also always off-putting to me. The houses don't fit the environment, bases can be used for pretty much free money and player-transports and the whole system incentivizes zerging.
If they wanna salvage the game, they have to work on their core systems since a lot of them don't work together. It shouldn't be too hard to somewhat balance damage and armor but it will only get harder if they keep adding stuff.
My suggestion would be to overthink a lot:
After what you said...Nerf Archery lol,
Remove towershields, Remove the Alv Speed buff,
Remove the armor-piercing for that one cladegift
Make magic somewhat blockable( percentage based on psyche, maybe armor type idk..every block-direction works, you just have to "parry" it),

Rework magic in general : remove some spells (most hitscans so most spells are parryable), rework others, make some utility spells more useful, add a competent spell that allows blocking with your bare hands --> Mages and Melee-Fighters should be able to have fun fights against one another.

Rework (nerf) armor, severly nerf Mastery and trinkets to ensure damage, mana regeneration damage reduction and jack-of-all-trades-builds are kept in check
Oh and give everyone a flat on-foot speed boost. ( no %-type stuff...just a flat value to make the movement feel better)

And that's just for some combat balance...
Edit for bad spelling and worse grammar.

 

[fartbox]

Urgh...Noone at SV plays the game and it shows.
Llike I said, I haven't touched this game in a while. I was kinda expecting Archery to get OP at some point, as it was bound to be, as soon as it does some decent damage.
Never liked the Armor penetration skill. It has always been a much too narrow, very bad bandaid fix.
The Zerg housing was also always off-putting to me. The houses don't fit the environment, bases can be used for pretty much free money and player-transports and the whole system incentivizes zerging.
If they wanna salvage the game, they have to work on their core systems since a lot of them don't work together. It shouldn't be too hard to somewhat balance damage and armor but it will only get harder if they keep adding stuff.
My suggestion would be to overthink a lot:
After what you said...Nerf Archery lol,
Remove towershields, Remove the Alv Speed buff,
Remove the armor-piercing for that one cladegift
Make magic somewhat blockable( percentage based on psyche, maybe armor type idk..every block-direction works, you just have to "parry" it),

Rework magic in general : remove some spells (most hitscans so most spells are parryable), rework others, make some utility spells more useful, add a competent spell that allows blocking with your bare hands --> Mages and Melee-Fighters should be able to have fun fights against one another.

Rework (nerf) armor, severly nerf Mastery and trinkets to ensure damage, mana regeneration damage reduction and jack-of-all-trades-builds are kept in check
Oh and give everyone a flat on-foot speed boost. ( no %-type stuff...just a flat value to make the movement feel better)

And that's just for some combat balance...
Edit for bad spelling and worse grammar.

They don't need to salvage the game, its more popular then ever in any period since subs have been instated, its growing and they are listening to feedback and making the right moves, albeit slowly, but with their limited resources they are doing excellent lately. Compare contrast patch cycles from Starvault to patches from Ashes of Creation; Same engine, 200 man team vs 10 man team. The patch cycles were at about the same pace for both games but the content from Starvault was undeniably higher quality and less buggy. Both games had plenty of bugs, but Ashes struggled to even get static mobs to not fall through terrain, or to have a robust Market UI (arguably one of the most important things in a MMO), or even things as simple as the how the sun moved through the sky jarringly at 20 pixels a tick rather then smooth and naturally.

Zerging is still common and strong but solo play and duo play has never been in a better spot since the games release. Solo players are able to contest "Most" pve objectives now thanks to stronger build options then previously. If a POI or objective is zerged its easier then ever to get around the map to another objective. Easier then ever to bank/craft without guild infrastructure or housing. They've been slowly buffing solo play every patch cycle and the ecosystem is thankful for it and its a large factor in why the game is growing now as it can support more players with more playstyles.

This thread wasn't about dooming the game or the state of balance. Elves should be the king of picking fights, making them the ideal selection for solo play, but right now they are too good at picking fights that are bad for them and suffering no consequences for it. There should be tools to punish elves who get too cocky. High stamina and adrenaline cost abilities that can slow the elf down or catch back up to it after they have voluntarily committed themselves to a fight or haphazardly walked into danger. That's all im asking for, so that the small group biome can be more diverse in race selection.

Perhaps these abilities could be given to high strength requirement weapons or scale off of strength/weight as well to make them more suited for heavier, slower, stronger characters.

 

[Emdash]

I agree with most points other than you heavily underestimating how much damage bows do both MA and foot archers are op right now post archery bugfix (all defenses stacked 2x vs bow dmg for some reason for 3 years in the game LOL) now they do comfortable 30 through steel, and alvarins can pop armor pierce and do comfortable 40 through steel (NOT TO HEAD) not to mention weakspots. However there are tons of houses and shit around to a point where you can just run into them vs ranged characters and coutner them with that, in Sarducaa we gonna get mogged to death by ranged characters till zergs build infrastructure every 10 meters. You'll see

nobody was hittin me for 40s thru cron draco