Why we don´t need a flagging system

[Godkin Veratas]

I don't know why it took me long to click on to this...but just realized this is some weird roleplay fantasy the ZEAL guys want Mo to be. To be able to freely live their weird cleansing roleplay from MO1, in MO2 without hassle.

Yes, the suggestion comes from a perspective that is consistent with our lore and role in Nave. The guards, flags, are all symbols of Tindremic imperial oppression.

However, we are and will remain a very small minority on the server that seeks to cleanse the vast majority of Mortals. Despite the simplistic heathen assumptions, if we were to get what we seek, Nave would be a much more difficult place for our mission to succeed. All of our activities would no longer be shielded by an arbitrary flag mechanic. Is that not obvious?

I've played both sides of the spectrum.

Played with GUTS for years, and we had our own form of player derived justice to keep Fabernum ours and safe for friends and allies...though our methods of player derived justice was murder, griefing and ultimatums(aka we'll blow your shit up and priest camp you for eternity). In that context, it certainly worked, for over half a decade in fact.

I also was there turning RPK into loot bags on Steam release, and all player derived justice did, was slow down the noob slaughter. RPK would just run to their walls and log off, until we left. Then log back on and continue their title farming, until we returned later or the next day. It worked while people were online willing to hand out justice, but when people were offline it allowed most of RPK to farm dreadlord titles.

I get it, you want to ride around on your desert/jungle horses, slay the nakeds/low geared, spamming your silly repentance spam macro, and have minimal consequence for it. Just be honest about it mate.

Yes. We do want to ride around and slay, we do want to spread the message of the gods and the benefits of repentance. You are very perceptive . You miss on the conclusion though. Nothing prevented that in MO1. Nothing will prevent it in MO2. We are talking about something slightly different, and when you see it, you may rejoice.

Your story about RPK and Guts is interesting. I don't imagine anyone wants a game where people aren't able to murder and fight over stuff and things. I think you're saying that it was challenging to protect new players. That there were ways for RPK to outmanuever you and accomplish their task. Guts was very effective at using the flagging mechanics and guardzones to their advantage, so I'm sure you have plenty to offer about the drawbacks and benefits. Yet, you don't seem to see that you used griefing as a tactic to control an area and that tactic might have something to do with the mechanics. Keep in mind, the tactic of having multiple characters, one with a thousand murdercounts, and one with 3 won't be available.

 

[Teknique]

From what I can see the argument is that guards lessen the amount of anti rpk players because they have nothing really to do due to the guards fulfilling their role for them.

I doubt it but it’s not impossible

 

[Turbizzler]

Yes, the suggestion comes from a perspective that is consistent with our lore and role in Nave. The guards, flags, are all symbols of Tindremic imperial oppression.

However, we are and will remain a very small minority on the server that seeks to cleanse the vast majority of Mortals. Despite the simplistic heathen assumptions, if we were to get what we seek, Nave would be a much more difficult place for our mission to succeed. All of our activities would no longer be shielded by an arbitrary flag mechanic. Is that not obvious?



Yes. We do want to ride around and slay, we do want to spread the message of the gods and the benefits of repentance. You are very perceptive . You miss on the conclusion though. Nothing prevented that in MO1. Nothing will prevent it in MO2. We are talking about something slightly different, and when you see it, you may rejoice.

Your story about RPK and Guts is interesting. I don't imagine anyone wants a game where people aren't able to murder and fight over stuff and things. I think you're saying that it was challenging to protect new players. That there were ways for RPK to outmanuever you and accomplish their task. Guts was very effective at using the flagging mechanics and guardzones to their advantage, so I'm sure you have plenty to offer about the drawbacks and benefits. Yet, you don't seem to see that you used griefing as a tactic to control an area and that tactic might have something to do with the mechanics. Keep in mind, the tactic of having multiple characters, one with a thousand murdercounts, and one with 3 won't be available.

City guards and things like the flagging system need to exist, as player driven justice requires players to be present...or players willing to do so. MO1 is a perfect example of an unintuitive flagging system and horrible guard AI - But also a perfect example of player behavior and motives.

We had APK guilds, which slowly died out. The flagging system worked against them, rather than with them(Also worked against PvPers too), it also showed player actions in policing or bringing justice was very ineffective long term, and only really worked short term - Unless taking extreme measures(such as GUTS did) to play with and manipulate the guard and flagging systems to achieve their own form of functioning justice.

I don't want MO1's flagging or guard AI in MO2, I want more refined and thought out systems, that also take into account how players will react and utilize said systems to their advantages or to use against others. This wasn't done enough for MO1's systems, and made it more ineffective, rather than effective, but still proved more effective than player brought justice, unless we're talking GUTS style of justice, which was always far more rewarding in results.

1 char per account wont stop people having multiple accounts. I myself plan to have 2 - 3. I'd gladly dedicate 1 account to a troll/grief character, to carry out the deeds that need to be done, to secure my interests.

I wrote a post somewhere in here about how I'd prefer certain things to be done with flagging, but am too lazy to find it.

 

[Godkin Veratas]

City guards and things like the flagging system need to exist, as player driven justice requires players to be present...or players willing to do so. MO1 is a perfect example of an unintuitive flagging system and horrible guard AI - But also a perfect example of player behavior and motives.

We had APK guilds, which slowly died out. The flagging system worked against them, rather than with them(Also worked against PvPers too), it also showed player actions in policing or bringing justice was very ineffective long term, and only really worked short term - Unless taking extreme measures(such as GUTS did) to play with and manipulate the guard and flagging systems to achieve their own form of functioning justice.

I don't want MO1's flagging or guard AI in MO2, I want more refined and thought out systems, that also take into account how players will react and utilize said systems to their advantages or to use against others. This wasn't done enough for MO1's systems, and made it more ineffective, rather than effective, but still proved more effective than player brought justice, unless we're talking GUTS style of justice, which was always far more rewarding in results.

1 char per account wont stop people having multiple accounts. I myself plan to have 2 - 3. I'd gladly dedicate 1 account to a troll/grief character, to carry out the deeds that need to be done, to secure my interests.

I wrote a post somewhere in here about how I'd prefer certain things to be done with flagging, but am too lazy to find it.

It sounds like you're saying they must build a system that we then circumvent immediately with additional characters. It seems to add hassle and complication that is likely to turn off many players rather than accomplish anything useful.

"You can get justice, you just need to create 5 accounts to spread out the killing!" Meh, most ARPK and more casual players will pass and leave, as we saw in MO1.

A major point is to get rid of such unnecessary exploitative practices by getting rid of the failed mechanics that make them necessary. They detract more than add imo. Perhaps you've grown to like them as you're already planning on how to circumvent them to be as ruthless as necessary, which I would support if you had faith. However, many won't and shouldn't have to.

It seems the distance between our positions is that you believe a system can be created that is more effective than player-based decision making. I don't. It's just the limitation of a static ruleset. This second character you designate for being an outlaw would be discovered by players eventually, but never by a AI guards or a flag mechanic with static rules.

 

[Zyconnic]

I think we nearly reached the end of this thread where people state the same opinion with different words and examples.

This is what I conclude from this thread
1) Flagging system and guards needs to go. The players can and will provide law and order based on what is needed.
2) Flagging system and guards needs to be changed and balanced but removal is not an option. Players cannot provide said feature themselves

There is ofc a lot of other factors which will influence both suggestions but ultimately I think 2) is the safest choice if we're aiming at a healthy game.

 

[Rorry]

As broken as AI was at least it was impartial and only acted based on player actions. GUTS justice was based on affiliation. If you weren't in their association you were dead.

Having no guards won't increase the number of APK guilds. It will just result in each town having a strong guild in control who kill everyone else.

 

[Kallardian Prince]

I was under the impression you can get banned if you keep on harassing people in town during beta.

 

[Kaemik]

I was under the impression you can get banned if you keep on harassing people in town during beta.

Banned in that people will gang up on you and priest camp you until you stop. I don't think SV has been doing anything about it yet. And given the ratios of people who follow and care about the etiquette the community has established vs those who don't that's been working out perfectly fine.

Except in stress test when there was an absolute flood of new players who didn't understand or care about the etiquette. I was going around testing things and making spreadsheets for most of stress test and I had to watch my back the ENTIRE time to avoid people running up and stabbing me at crafting stations.

I don't think no system will be anywhere near to sufficient come game launch. But I think if the game launch is intended to be fairly small and for devoted players then it's a good time to test HOW bad it's going to be. And I do think if they're looking to avoid making MO2 a griefer's paradise that carrots for good behavior and mentoring newbs are as important or more important than sticks for griefers.

 

[Rorry]

I was under the impression you can get banned if you keep on harassing people in town during beta.

At one time SV said that they would ban you if you killed people who were crafting. It was very unevenly enforced. They never had prohibitions against killing people in town.

 

[Magos]

I don't think no system will be anywhere near to sufficient come game launch. But I think if the game launch is intended to be fairly small and for devoted players then it's a good time to test HOW bad it's going to be. And I do think if they're looking to avoid making MO2 a griefer's paradise that carrots for good behavior and mentoring newbs are as important or more important than sticks for griefers.

I don't think it's intended to be small. We are starting on Haven with multiple instances, then you pick a town to go from there if it works like MO1 you can also bring all ur Haven stuff. They want 20k simultaneous players, not small.
IF there were no guards in yet at launch. I can almost guarantee that such massive anti PK alliances would form that certain towns would be considered "safer" options to head for after Haven. And the outskirts of those towns would be safer than if there were guards in the towns themselves.
But with guards no matter what town they head for they are doomed the moment they step out of the guard zone.

IF there were no guards there would literally be guilds that have their players patrol the town as guards. This is the type of sandbox gold you guys are disputing.

 

[Kaemik]

Ah. At whatever point this game is intended to be marked to the greater population and not just the ultra-core audience we'll need to have solid measures to prevent people from being griefed out of the game.

I'm not going to be too upset if I have to rely entirely on my wits/skill/allies to protect my own stuff at launch. And I think that's something I share in common with most people here right now. But I don't think that's something we share in common with 90% of MMO gamers. And while I don't think all 90% of those people will ever belong here. If we want the game to be highly successful it have a somewhat broader appeal.

Something like a tax on vendor and broker transactions in a town a guild that controls that town can adjust would be HUGE though. If you did something like that veteran guilds would have a vested interested in controlling blue towns and running off any griefer than hurts trade/activity in that area. People ganking newbs in a blue zone means nothing to you when you live in a keep with your guild on the edge of the map. But it means A LOT to you when every newb selling zombie heads in Fabernuum or Meduli directly impacts your guild's bottom line.

When big vet guilds are in competition with each other to create the blue zone most welcoming to newbs... newbs win and griefers lose because you'll have some of the strongest guilds in the game waging an all out war against griefers in their area.

 

[Piet]

my motivation is because I think it would lead to fun gameplay is all. A massive NPK alliance, serious reputation, more glory, and more tears.

That happened already in MO1 and will in MO2. I want that as well and you don't need no guards for that. People want to go out of town and to do almost anything need to. When I brought up your idea about ARPK or NPK as you call it Godkin said the opposite he want's just RPK.

 

[Magos]

That happened already in MO1 and will in MO2. I want that as well and you don't need no guards for that. People want to go out of town and to do almost anything need to. When I brought up your idea about ARPK or NPK as you call it Godkin said the opposite he want's just RPK.

The only thing adding a guard zone will do is give RPK's a target zone to camp. It teaches players this is where you are safe, out here is where you get murdered. The ARPK's couldn't protect the innocents in their areas with this system before I don't expect them to this time. It will chip away at the population again.
But if they forced us to band together to defend the cities, then I think the ARPK's would heavily outnumber the RPK's. Players would inflict greater consequences to clans raiding a town in MO2 than they did camping a guard zone in MO1. The whole community in the area would be effected by a town raid, not just the poor guy that got ganked on the guard zone.

I've said my peace several times over, nice discussion guys, thanks for keeping it civil. SV will do what they will do regardless, as always.

 

[Ministro]

my motivation is because I think it would lead to fun gameplay is all. A massive NPK alliance, serious reputation, more glory, and more tears.

a beautful fantasy, as likely to happen now as it did(n't) happen in MO1, sorry.

I get it, you want to ride around on your desert/jungle horses, slay the nakeds/low geared, spamming your silly repentance spam macro, and have minimal consequence for it. Just be honest about it mate.

an ugly reality, as likely to happen now as it did in MO1, sorry.

A major point is to get rid of such unnecessary exploitative practices by getting rid of the failed mechanics that make them necessary.

chuckle, did you manage to hold a straight face as you said that?

IF there were no guards in yet at launch. I can almost guarantee that such massive anti PK alliances would form that certain towns would be considered "safer" options to head for after Haven. And the outskirts of those towns would be safer than if there were guards in the towns themselves.
IF there were no guards there would literally be guilds that have their players patrol the town as guards. This is the type of sandbox gold you guys are disputing.

I can't tell if you're deluded or bullshitting. Do you really think anti-PK guilds are gonna just magically form 24-hour noob watches and then maintain them for X *years*? Then why don't we have that in MO1 right now? And even if you could sell that fantasy, how the heck would noobs from Haven even know which towns happen to have this fantasy 24-coverage? Help chat?

Everything you say is belied by the ugly reality that actually happened in MO1; your ideas can be summed up in two words: wishful thinking. And that's if I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

iirc, Henrik said there'd be guards and some kind of reputation system. Kinda makes this thread moot, unless you wanna talk about what kind of reputation system would be a good 2.0 to the MO1 flagging system. Unless this thread goes that more productive way, I think I'm with with Magos on being done with this thread. Peace.

 

[Eldrath]

I think we nearly reached the end of this thread where people state the same opinion with different words and examples.

This is what I conclude from this thread
1) Flagging system and guards needs to go. The players can and will provide law and order based on what is needed.
2) Flagging system and guards needs to be changed and balanced but removal is not an option. Players cannot provide said feature themselves

There is ofc a lot of other factors which will influence both suggestions but ultimately I think 2) is the safest choice if we're aiming at a healthy game.

It won´t be healthy, it will just be sick in another way. Maybe SV can involve china and learn from their social scoring. That seems to be the way things are going any way. Let´s trust in an algorithem to tell right from wrong for us.

From what I can see the argument is that guards lessen the amount of anti rpk players because they have nothing really to do due to the guards fulfilling their role for them.

I doubt it but it’s not impossible

Guards actually worked against you in many cases and they will again. Not to mention the effect guards had on the capabilities of those that fought "with" them. Those who try to do good will see that the system works against them and that the people abusing it to hurt others will be protected by it. Once they try to deal justice themselves they will find themselves outclassed by outlaws and murderers. You can only walk with crutch so long before your muscles atrophy and spasm.

Then it´s back to sitting in the guardzone and wondering why the game is dieing.


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For arguments sake I have to point out that also can have guards without a reputation system. They would then only react to things they actually see happening. Which would be an improvement over what I assume is going to happen on monday.

 

[Ministro]

For arguments sake I have to point out that also can have guards without a reputation system. They would then only react to things they actually see happening. Which would be an improvement over what I assume is going to happen on monday.

This could work. Be like cops in real life. They don't know everything about everyone around them, they just react to any violence/crime they see, or calls for help.

 

[Solairerection]

This could work. Be like cops in real life. They don't know everything about everyone around them, they just react to any violence/crime they see, or calls for help.

A-RPK features men and women in laaaaaaaaaw enforcement. Suspects are considering innocent, until proven guilty, in a court of laaaaw.

 

[Keurk]

i did feel like you in your original post. But after a while and some brainstorm, i realised the current MO2 alpha population isnt really representative of the overall population that will populate the game over time and at release.And while it is working quite well atm, because people have some pvp experience, have relation, are happy to see old nicknames and talk to eachothers, etc, i think all this will be quite different when persistence goes in. Im not for AI guards ,op stuff etc myself, but i just think it is somehow needed in some places, at least in capital

 

[Ministro]

MO1 had towns with guards, and towns without guards. The towns with guards were thriving centers of population (while it had one) and every single solitary town without guards was a ghost town. Seems pretty indicative to me; if *every* town is without guards, *every* town will be a ghost town, and that's a dead game. I think it bears stating that the flagging system debate, and the guards debate, are not necessarily the same debate.

 

[Alrashid]

pro guards ... maybe they shouldn`t run out to far from the city like in mo 1 ...
and pro new flagging system .. depends on how it ends up ...