The REAL issue with this game...

fartbox

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You lost credibility at this point. MO1's population was better than that. If you're looking at steam charts for your data you are wrong as more were using the regular client outside of steam and steam release didn't happen for years.

What evidence can you provide that the average concurrent for MO1 was over 200 players for its 12 year life span.

Mortal online 1 released 2010.

Mortal online 2 released 2022.

All the data I have suggests that the average concurrent for Mortal online 1 over the entirety of its life was less then 200. That is averaging all player counts over its entire lifespan for a cumulative metric.

Or are you inferring that Mortal online 1 having a 400 player concurrent in 2013 and a 15 player concurrent in 2020 is not to be averaged and that we should cherry pick the 2013 data?
 

Teknique

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What evidence can you provide that the average concurrent for MO1 was over 200 players for its 12 year life span.

Mortal online 1 released 2010.

Mortal online 2 released 2022.

All the data I have suggests that the average concurrent for Mortal online 1 over the entirety of its life was less then 200. That is averaging all player counts over its entire lifespan for a cumulative metric.

Or are you inferring that Mortal online 1 having a 400 player concurrent in 2013 and a 15 player concurrent in 2020 is not to be averaged and that we should cherry pick the 2013 data?
He is saying that the game didn’t even release on steam until significantly later and that majority of core players were used to accessing the game with launcher. He won’t be able to prove a negative. I take a much broader approach you say that mo2 was more popular than mo1 therefore it was better. This single variable analysis is incredibly flawed and pretty much the furthest thing possible from objectivity or accuracy but I’ll leave you with a couple of analogies. McDonald’s is more popular than the avg gourmet restaurant therefore the food is better. The average mainstream song is vastly more popular than the average Indy song therefore it’s better. Mass appeal is actually more often than not an indication of inferior quality as the average person is barely conscious

If you want to say well this is from one iteration of the game to the other so it’s valid. Realistically popularity shouldn’t be used to judge quality at all. The trashlings that dunked out the game and turned it to trash used it all the time and I can confirm that they’re really really really stupid people.
 
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fartbox

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He is saying that the game didn’t even release on steam until significantly later and that majority of core players were used to accessing the game with launcher. He won’t be able to prove a negative. I take a much broader approach you say that mo2 was more popular than mo1 therefore it was better. This single variable analysis is incredibly flawed and pretty much the furthest thing possible from objectivity or accuracy but I’ll leave you with a couple of analogies. McDonald’s is more popular than the avg gourmet restaurant therefore the food is better. The average mainstream song is vastly more popular than the average Indy song therefore it’s better. Mass appeal is actually more often than not an indication of inferior quality as the average person is barely conscious

If you want to say well this is from one iteration of the game to the other so it’s valid. Realistically popularity shouldn’t be used to judge quality at all. The trashlings that dunked out the game and turned it to trash used it all the time and I can confirm that they’re really really really stupid people.
It's a good argument, one of the best that anyone's raised against me recently.

But you forgot one thing; Accessibility.

A plate of mcdonalds is 15$, a gourmet plate is 150$. The accessibility of Mcdonalds contributes to its popularity. The accessibility of PVP MMO's isn't related to their price because all of them are around the same price; Roughly 15$ USD a month.

The most determining factor in the accessibility in PVEXVP MMO's is not their price...but their mechanics. Mortal 1 had bad mechanics, Mortal 2 has bad mechanics. Both are objectively bad games in their current form but Mortal 2 is still better then Mortal 1 because it has less bad mechanics then the ulterior.

Neither game is accessible.
 
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Teknique

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It's a good argument, one of the best that anyone's raised against me recently.

But you forgot one thing; Accessibility.

A plate of mcdonalds is 15$, a gourmet plate is 150$. The accessibility of Mcdonalds contributes to its popularity. The accessibility of PVP MMO's isn't related to their price because all of them are around the same price; Roughly 15$ USD a month.

The most determining factor in the accessibility in PVEXVP MMO's is not their price...but their mechanics. Mortal 1 had bad mechanics, Mortal 2 has bad mechanics. Both are objectively bad games in their current form but Mortal 2 is still better then Mortal 1 because it has less bad mechanics then the ulterior.

Neither game is accessible.
Not much to disagree with there. I take your point that they’re both bad games but in very different ways. The most useful way to frame it is that MO1 wasn’t a bad game it was an unsuccessful game. That’s my point from earlier it is too simple to say game ded therefore combat bad.

mortal online (1) to go back to your point of accessibility is actually more accessible from a PvP perspective. It just failed miserably in production value and quality of life, but the combat itself really anyone could participate in. Mortal 1 for example had balance asymmetries that were beneficial to people with low mechanical skill or who are playing legit. Think all the same classes we have in mo2 MC/MA/MM/BM but that actually felt functional, then from a melee perspective it was mostly aim based, and footwork based. This allowed almost anyone even if they were 80 years old to be viable in someway in PvP.

Conclusion: too simplistic to say game died therefore combat was bad, the factors that lead to mos death are complicated and no one can truly say they know exactly what killed it. Arguably both mo1 and Mo2 are actually in the top tier of success for these kinds of mmos, while you can point to the couple behemoths in this genre the vast majority of games in the genre have terrible graphics terrible game play and terrible player counts and run for a couple of months only.

Random edit: mo2 also seems to age quicker or progress through its life cycle much faster than mo1. For example elementalism made mo1 bad at the end of its life but mo2 brought that trash in early. MO died at the conclusion of 3-4 server wars and 100s of just random unnamed wars. MO2 had a siege window that no one cared about then croaked
 
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fartbox

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Not much to disagree with there. I take your point that they’re both bad games but in very different ways. The most useful way to frame it is that MO1 wasn’t a bad game it was an unsuccessful game. That’s my point from earlier it is too simple to say game ded therefore combat bad.

mortal online (1) to go back to your point of accessibility is actually more accessible from a PvP perspective. It just failed miserably in production value and quality of life, but the combat itself really anyone could participate in. Mortal 1 for example had balance asymmetries that were beneficial to people with low mechanical skill or who are playing legit. Think all the same classes we have in mo2 MC/MA/MM/BM but that actually felt functional, then from a melee perspective it was mostly aim based, and footwork based. This allowed almost anyone even if they were 80 years old to be viable in someway in PvP.

Conclusion: too simplistic to say game died therefore combat was bad, the factors that lead to mos death are complicated and no one can truly say they know exactly what killed it. Arguably both mo1 and Mo2 are actually in the top tier of success for these kinds of mmos, while you can point to the couple behemoths in this genre the vast majority of games in the genre have terrible graphics terrible game play and terrible player counts and run for a couple of months only.

Random edit: mo2 also seems to age quicker or progress through its life cycle much faster than mo1. For example elementalism made mo1 bad at the end of its life but mo2 brought that trash in early. MO died at the conclusion of 3-4 server wars and 100s of just random unnamed wars. MO2 had a siege window that no one cared about then croaked
mo2 is dangerously close to good combat as it is. It only needs the introduction of some gap closers, debuffs like greivous wounds, some mild and short term slows, some quick double strike ability with 50% damage on the second hit, and some cleaves(multiple cleaves), and the ability for mages to cast with weapon out but blocking interrupts casting and the introduction of proper disengage mechanics and some sort of limited sustain option besides bandages/pots for footy kits.

Also the removal of the melee charge up feature and the removal of long cast times but a drastic reduction in mage damage and healing potential. 40% or so to start and test from there with new footy abilities and mage blocking. Also pve damage needs lowered by about 30% across the board to compensate. As well as rebalancing mana costs much lower.

So yea not that much.


Removing melee charge up kills spinning. even if you reduce footy base damage it kills spinning. Requires rebalancing all weapon damages tho.

Doing all of this would produce a magnificent combat flow. Damage would be lower for footys and mages but dps would be higher with no charge up and low cast times, gap closers would be expensive on stamina but footys would be able to stick to mages much better, the mage would be able to skill express through blocking . Spaming abilities and swings will stam you out quickly but you have windows of opportunities to pressure the mage and he must play defensively and then he will have opportunities to pressure you if you are not successful at getting through his blocks.

Ideally we create a meta where any footy can play very aggressively against a mage for a full stamina bar, but if he fails to kill that mage in the stamina bar his options will be limited and he will be in a rough spot unless he can find cover.


May also require rebalancing racial traits.


1VX which is a sore subject now would be much easier, cleaves would punish clumping heavily. mages would be punished for friendly fire more often with no cast times. they can no longer hold spells on you waiting for a perfect moment. And with grievous wounds and lower healing throughput from mages you can now pressure people through heals. enemy mages will be much more likely to heal you because they can no longer hold spells and they now cast quickly.
 
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Emdash

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At first I liked the idea of the trinkets, but I didn't know how awful they are for the games PvP.

That's the problem: a 'sandbox' is a video game, a MMO, but there is a backbone that is imposed by a themepark game. The idea of a sandbox is to let it create its own backbone. As time passes, things stand out, and even the players are like yo wat?? If you paint yourself into a corner and refuse to go back, you have failed your playerbase. Henrik believes he would lose all of the players who have the most OP trinkets, but that's bullshit. And if it were true, those cowards who need 1000 dollar items that they can't lose to compete need to be removed.

I can pretty much predict that they will not revert anything, though. Even if they did, they would probably still have like legacy trinks that the supervets would have haha. The only thing of consequence that I remember them reverting was breeding grounds, but that was just money gen, it wasn't content like trinkets.

You have to address the issue that it seems the majority of people who are still playing are playing to get OP trinkets.

There is a lot of shit that pisses me off about this game, but I don't think I am gonna even play for Sardu if they don't remove trinks and mastery. It's just bad theory.

Like I said, if they want veteran benefits, they should let people buy one or two buffs with sub points and make them really strong (like 5% dmg bonus,) but nothing like this shit.
 

manure

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Cut the crap.

Lets make a simple test :

For a month, ONLY ONE MONTH, remove every single guard from the wilderness and remove trinkets 100%... You will see how many people are gonna start playing this game again...
There will be action everywhere any time you log in... From the ramps of Toxai, roads between Bakti and Moh ki, till Medulis Graveyard, there will be so much PvP and action that not a single soul will ever think about quitting again.

Pure and simple.
 

Turbizzler

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Game is poopy and has been poopy for a long time, and will continue to be poopy. It's just taken the MO1 rout of becoming a polished turd, just at a much faster pace. MO1 had A LOT of flaws, but still is the better game out of the two, because somehow MO2 has similar flaws that are worse than what they were in MO1, with added clunk and poop in the form of others flaws, on top of that.

MO1 had way more ambiance, character, replayability and even the community was significantly better in terms of personalities and competitiveness. MO2 is just a mix n mash of generic/themepark and Korean MMO ideas, thrown ontop of a MO1 shadow.
 
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manure

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Game is poopy and has been poopy for a long time, and will continue to be poopy. It's just taken the MO1 rout of becoming a polished turd, just at a much faster pace. MO1 had A LOT of flaws, but still is the better game out of the two, because somehow MO2 has similar flaws that are worse than what they were in MO1, with added clunk and poop in the form of others flaws, on top of that.

MO1 had way more ambiance, character, replayability and even the community was significantly better in terms of personalities and competitiveness. MO2 is just a mix n mash of generic/themepark and Korean MMO ideas, thrown ontop of a MO1 shadow.
The only thing better in MO1 is that they had THIEVING...
I still refuse to believe we are in 2025 and theres no THIEVING in MO2 yet !
This is unforgivable.

Everything else is easy fix.
Remove guards from the wilderness and remove TRINKETS (or make them always droppable upon death) and we have a great game again.
 

CherryKush

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The only thing better in MO1 is that they had THIEVING...
I still refuse to believe we are in 2025 and theres no THIEVING in MO2 yet !
This is unforgivable.

Everything else is easy fix.
Remove guards from the wilderness and remove TRINKETS (or make them always droppable upon death) and we have a great game again.
Or at the very least let there be a chance to drop them so its always a gamble if you want to take them out and use that extra power...
 

finegamingconnoisseur

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The only thing better in MO1 is that they had THIEVING...
I still refuse to believe we are in 2025 and theres no THIEVING in MO2 yet !
This is unforgivable.

Everything else is easy fix.
Remove guards from the wilderness and remove TRINKETS (or make them always droppable upon death) and we have a great game again.
I have an uneasy feeling that SV may not want thievery in the game for all time, despite some 63 percent of the community wanting it.

The reason may be that they want towns to be a place where players won't have to worry about danger and risk so much. Given that thieves operate mainly in town, especially in crowded areas like the bank.

We were supposed to hear about thievery after several sprints by now if I remember correctly, has Henrik said anything?
 
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Teknique

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mo2 is dangerously close to good combat as it is. It only needs the introduction of some gap closers, debuffs like greivous wounds, some mild and short term slows, some quick double strike ability with 50% damage on the second hit, and some cleaves(multiple cleaves), and the ability for mages to cast with weapon out but blocking interrupts casting and the introduction of proper disengage mechanics and some sort of limited sustain option besides bandages/pots for footy kits.

Also the removal of the melee charge up feature and the removal of long cast times but a drastic reduction in mage damage and healing potential. 40% or so to start and test from there with new footy abilities and mage blocking. Also pve damage needs lowered by about 30% across the board to compensate. As well as rebalancing mana costs much lower.

So yea not that much.


Removing melee charge up kills spinning. even if you reduce footy base damage it kills spinning. Requires rebalancing all weapon damages tho.

Doing all of this would produce a magnificent combat flow. Damage would be lower for footys and mages but dps would be higher with no charge up and low cast times, gap closers would be expensive on stamina but footys would be able to stick to mages much better, the mage would be able to skill express through blocking . Spaming abilities and swings will stam you out quickly but you have windows of opportunities to pressure the mage and he must play defensively and then he will have opportunities to pressure you if you are not successful at getting through his blocks.

Ideally we create a meta where any footy can play very aggressively against a mage for a full stamina bar, but if he fails to kill that mage in the stamina bar his options will be limited and he will be in a rough spot unless he can find cover.


May also require rebalancing racial traits.


1VX which is a sore subject now would be much easier, cleaves would punish clumping heavily. mages would be punished for friendly fire more often with no cast times. they can no longer hold spells on you waiting for a perfect moment. And with grievous wounds and lower healing throughput from mages you can now pressure people through heals. enemy mages will be much more likely to heal you because they can no longer hold spells and they now cast quickly.
I understand where you're coming from, you want aoe for 1v3's and the ability to catch and kite, kind of standard mmo gameplay. Instant swings I would just classify in the "not convinced but plausible" category. It really depends how much drag and how the aim works if you can spin or not, I generally try to add an incompetence multiplier of 100 if its something complicated that SV has to implement in favor of it being really bad.


You're not wrong per se but what you're seeing in this thread is something entirely different. Most of us who actually have first handle knowledge of what the game was and what it is know how shallow and empty mo2 is. You can't move around or position yourself to do anything, you can't run any budget kits, you can't play any classes that you like because they're all shit, everyone can sticky back because its brainless etc etc. I personally don't trust the people who broke every good system in the game to do anything positive for the game combat balance wise, but hey nice job on the QOL frfr no capitulation cro.
 

CherryKush

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I have an uneasy feeling that SV may not want thievery in the game for all time, despite some 63 percent of the community wanting it.

The reason may be that they want towns to be a place where players won't have to worry about danger and risk so much. Given that thieves operate mainly in town, especially in crowded areas like the bank.

We were supposed to hear about thievery after several sprints by now if I remember correctly, has Henrik said anything?
There was always a counter to thievery in MO1 if you were not lazy... All you had to do was place valuable items in heavy bags that could not be stolen.... So towns would remain "safe"... if you took the proper safeguards...
 

finegamingconnoisseur

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There was always a counter to thievery in MO1 if you were not lazy... All you had to do was place valuable items in heavy bags that could not be stolen.... So towns would remain "safe"... if you took the proper safeguards...
Yes, I remember playing the arms race game with the thieves in town back in MO1, which I enjoyed. I'm just hoping SV won't ditch thievery altogether because of who knows what reasons.
 
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Emdash

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Game is poopy and has been poopy for a long time, and will continue to be poopy. It's just taken the MO1 rout of becoming a polished turd, just at a much faster pace. MO1 had A LOT of flaws, but still is the better game out of the two, because somehow MO2 has similar flaws that are worse than what they were in MO1, with added clunk and poop in the form of others flaws, on top of that.

MO1 had way more ambiance, character, replayability and even the community was significantly better in terms of personalities and competitiveness. MO2 is just a mix n mash of generic/themepark and Korean MMO ideas, thrown ontop of a MO1 shadow.

I am definitely team MO1, but there is shit in MO1 that I would never wanna experience again haha. That shit where you'd get stuck on a crack / rock and stay jumping while someone killed you was some of the ragiest shit. Getting stuck on trees and killed by mobs, also. I give SV credit for making a lot of that stuff WAY better.

Some things to consider: MO1 was 15~ years ago. They had at least 5 years of the game being dogshit to polish and go for MO2.

It might sound like the "eye test" argument in sports, but I feel the easiest way to judge which game is better is to say which game gave more memories / experiences to its playerbase? I think the clear answer is MO1. I don't have my thumb on the pulse of MO2, but if you played MO1, you knew the main characters enough to keep up with what was going on in the game on the forum.

It just came closer to being what a pvp sandbox was supposed to be, imo. I think MO2's flaw was trying to be 'successful' and 'accessible' when people already played MO1 and that was back when all the other MMOs weren't as played out.
 

Rahz

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I also came back to the game 3 or 4 days ago.
Not gonna talk about Trinket/ build balance, more about the grind expected for new players to be able to compete.
Trinkets are very expensive, that is correct. However I already bought a few "okay" ones for about 6k gold in total. You could grind a lot longer if you want BiS trinkets but in the beginning you don't need to care. The problem is that this IS NOT the biggest part of the grind.
Getting to clade level 20 alone takes longer than that. From Clade lvl 14-15 youll need about 2k(?) glory, for the next level 6k, for level 17 you already need more than 10.000 glory.
This is excessive considering your build counts as" PvP ready" at Mastery Level 90. New players can't just go to the most viable glory-farming spots and will therefore sit at around 2k glory/hour for most of their time. The time needed to get to a level where you can effectively fight back is just WAY too much.
 

Emdash

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another thing is you have to at least halve the steam charts, and maybe more because there were 4 slots before, and now there are 2 as well as there was a launcher. 500 concurrent in 2025 is PATHETIC. 750 was bad, too, but those who know math understand that 500 is a lot less.
 
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ElPerro

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Random edit: mo2 also seems to age quicker or progress through its life cycle much faster than mo1. For example elementalism made mo1 bad at the end of its life but mo2 brought that trash in early. MO died at the conclusion of 3-4 server wars and 100s of just random unnamed wars. MO2 had a siege window that no one cared about then croaked
It might sound like the "eye test" argument in sports, but I feel the easiest way to judge which game is better is to say which game gave more memories / experiences to its playerbase? I think the clear answer is MO1. I don't have my thumb on the pulse of MO2, but if you played MO1, you knew the main characters enough to keep up with what was going on in the game on the forum.

It just came closer to being what a pvp sandbox was supposed to be, imo. I think MO2's flaw was trying to be 'successful' and 'accessible' when people already played MO1 and that was back when all the other MMOs weren't as played out.
Yeah MO2 has no politics because they completely gutted the sandbox component for a more accessible watered down approach. Nobody is allowed to be a villain anymore and piss off other players, they removed wardecs, taking over towns and turning the guards off/blacklisting ppl, etc.

And this might be controversial for MO1 vets but even walls served their purpose to unite the server against a common enemy by denying dungeons and farm spots. But of course they kept the most aids mechanic in guild guards which is worse for the game IMO
 

Teknique

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Yeah MO2 has no politics because they completely gutted the sandbox component for a more accessible watered down approach. Nobody is allowed to be a villain anymore and piss off other players, they removed wardecs, taking over towns and turning the guards off/blacklisting ppl, etc.

And this might be controversial for MO1 vets but even walls served their purpose to unite the server against a common enemy by denying dungeons and farm spots. But of course they kept the most aids mechanic in guild guards which is worse for the game IMO
We had some good memories. Until I die I’ll remember holding the W key on you with my 1.44 cron blade in mortal royale, or that 360 parry you had on me you know which one I’m talking about. Won’t forget the coming home from an overnight shift to server resets and then staying up to siege dred war station, won’t forget that wardec in meduli hawk vs whoever your crew was at the time, won’t forget being homeless in tindrem learning to scrap it out, or that fuckn bush in the tindrem gy.

Nobody is allowed to lose in mo2, therefore nobody is allowed to win. Walls served their purpose and created conflict. There are a lot of way that they could have been balanced. Blacklists started many wars and wardecs were a constant threat.


End of a time that many of us knew we would play forever, maybe we knew it couldn’t last but we couldn’t see the day where we wouldn’t play. It sucks that the “other guy is having too much fun” crowd won the narrative war. I just hope everyone got what they needed out of mortal because it’s finished it’s never coming back.
 
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Emdash

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Nobody is allowed to lose in mo2, therefore nobody is allowed to win.

This is a great line. The key was to make it so people were always 'winning' and 'losing,' but that it was bearable and that there were things going on on every level so you never got 'knocked out of the game.' But they just said if we let people keep their TC, they will never quit. WELL now we got 750 max pop in the last month, eyy.

They needed town life, then like town / world life, then raw tc / wilderness life. And if you get pushed back down to town life, you can still have fun and it still creates content. People should constantly be rising thru those ranks and others should be getting dropped off back to the beginning. It should be super hard to hold TC control of something valuable.

Dudes be like... I can't defend 24 / 7 lul I have a job, but it's like oh yeah, so why do you think you should control GK? haha. Make some fking friends. That's one of the driving forces of MO1, different groups protecting each other because it was impossible to protect yourself always. Then the attrition of sieges by small groups like early / mid rpk.
 
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