Combat Suggestions [Feedback]

Which ideas are good?


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Kaemik

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Nov 28, 2020
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Not really. I've said before earlier that a focus on balancing the "current combat system" is misguided. We're currently playing 115 con foot fighters that can run darn near a full set of tungsteel-plate with 0 movement speed loss. We could get most of that in the game launch but it would mean our character is essentially a tank.

You can't really balance a combat system when everyone is playing tanks. You need to see how they interact with the other roles first.
 
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Teknique

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Jun 15, 2020
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Not really. I've said before earlier that a focus on balancing the "current combat system" is misguided. We're currently playing 115 con foot fighters that can run darn near a full set of tungsteel-plate with 0 movement speed loss. We could get most of that in the game launch but it would mean our character is essentially a tank.

You can't really balance a combat system when everyone is playing tanks. You need to see how they interact with the other roles first.
and still everyone is getting hit super hard xd
 

boba

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Jun 23, 2020
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Not really. I've said before earlier that a focus on balancing the "current combat system" is misguided. We're currently playing 115 con foot fighters that can run darn near a full set of tungsteel-plate with 0 movement speed loss. We could get most of that in the game launch but it would mean our character is essentially a tank.

You can't really balance a combat system when everyone is playing tanks. You need to see how they interact with the other roles first.

0 movement loss? You sure? You should log in.
 

ThaBadMan

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May 28, 2020
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and still everyone is getting hit super hard xd
That you can blame the combat system.
Atm theres no point in using anything other than the hardest hitting weapon, when someone fucks up you simply want the highest dmg possible to land.
The quickest weapons atm are slow enough that everyone and their grandmother can parry consistently.
You move slower than a snail so movement based combat and footwork are useless.

So we all play parry whores with heavy as shit weapons to actually kill your opponent before you fall to sleep.
 
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Svaar

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Nov 4, 2020
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Why do you assume ignorance? I think a lot of the players giving feedback here are actually aware of the stamina penalties and can take it into account when giving feedback. You could also provide some insight into stamina management by showing us your superior skills in a video. Since "people" apparently suck at the game you must know how to do it better. A 1v2 or 1v3 would suffice.


On stamina:
The problem is the amount of stamina it costs to attack compared to the amount it costs to defend. Initiating a swing (with a average weapon like a katana) costs about as much as putting up a block, but the regenerations while charging is lower than when holding a block. Thus the attacker ends up with less stamina than the defender. Over prolonged fight this is very noticeable.

The problem is that the defender has a much easier time getting an advantage than the attacker because it is extremely difficult to get around a parry. Getting a back hit for example usually requires sprinting or even jumping (same for morphing animations, feinting etc.) making the stamina gap even bigger.

This is part of reason why even with way superior skills it is extremely hard to win a 1vX. You will simply run out of stamina once you switch to offense to kill someone. Unless they don´t know how directional blocking works.

Personally I think that they should
A. increase stamina regeneration slightly across the board and remove the threshold that they currently have, but go steadly up from 5 to 40kg of armorweight.
B. Half the cost of initiating a swing, or the cost of keeping it drawn.
I totally disagree, you are giving an example of a 1v1 duel. It is worth starting to defend against two players, so immediately you have a shortage of stamina and the attackers spam with blows and you do not have time to overlap the blocks due to the lack of stamina. There are a lot of such examples every day.

in my opinion, the attackers should also increase their stamina consumption so that they do not lead to spam hits. It is also necessary to increase the rate of recovery of stamina if the player moves. in a passive state in battle, it is practically impossible to restore endurance, while fighting against two or more opponents, endurance is not restored at all.

In my opinion, the most critical now in close combat is the block system, it needs to be reworked.


I will give an example:
there are two players, one puts a block from the thrust blow (in a straight line) and lifts the character's head up as far as possible, the second player hits the thrust blow and lifts the camera down as far as possible
as a result, the player who blocks and lifts the camera upward as much as possible, blocks the stabbing blow of the player who strikes the open legs or into the open body
it seems that the character has one big shield from the legs and head
Example:
 
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Eldrath

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Jun 18, 2020
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the Jungle. Meditating on things to come.
I totally disagree, you are giving an example of a 1v1 duel. It is worth starting to defend against two players, so immediately you have a shortage of stamina and the attackers spam with blows and you do not have time to overlap the blocks due to the lack of stamina. There are a lot of such examples every day.

in my opinion, the attackers should also increase their stamina consumption so that they do not lead to spam hits. It is also necessary to increase the rate of recovery of stamina if the player moves. in a passive state in battle, it is practically impossible to restore endurance, while fighting against two or more opponents, endurance is not restored at all.

In my opinion, the most critical now in close combat is the block system, it needs to be reworked.


I will give an example:
there are two players, one puts a block from the thrust blow (in a straight line) and lifts the character's head up as far as possible, the second player hits the thrust blow and lifts the camera down as far as possible
as a result, the player who blocks and lifts the camera upward as much as possible, blocks the stabbing blow of the player who strikes the open legs or into the open body
it seems that the character has one big shield from the legs and head

I think I sorta undertand your point. You agree with increasing the stamina regeneration, but you want to happen when moving? I think it´s better if it is increased in all states (walking/standing).

In a 1 v 2 I find that you have to be aggressive at some point to finish one you opponents. That is when the cost of attacking comes in. You will be already low from blocking and ripostes (that´s how you got the one guy low in the first place) and once he is down to 10% he will fall back and try to bandage. If you can´t kill him then, you are dead. That´s where my idea of reducing the cost for attacks comes in.
 

Svaar

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Nov 4, 2020
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I think I sorta undertand your point. You agree with increasing the stamina regeneration, but you want to happen when moving? I think it´s better if it is increased in all states (walking/standing).

In a 1 v 2 I find that you have to be aggressive at some point to finish one you opponents. That is when the cost of attacking comes in. You will be already low from blocking and ripostes (that´s how you got the one guy low in the first place) and once he is down to 10% he will fall back and try to bandage. If you can´t kill him then, you are dead. That´s where my idea of reducing the cost for attacks comes in.
I'm talking about this and that it is necessary to equalize the costs of endurance when blocking and when hitting. now if you stand still and press the block, the person who does it will melt endurance before our eyes. if you take a person who also spam with blows in the air, then such a character practically does not spend stamina. following this logic, the attacker needs to increase the consumption of stamina with each blow so that he cannot inflict endless blows.
 

Ministro

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Dec 3, 2020
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I've now spent some time fighting with daggers and 1-handers now, after doing tanks and 2-handers like most of this alpha, I've completed my first pass on melee, and come to the following conclusions:

1.) As much as I love to give shit to the vets whining about stamina, stam regen is actually a bit low, even for lighter armors.
2.) Most melee is actually pretty well balanced, and judging by tanks with massive 2-handers is premature; the faster weapons are pretty realistic too, as is footwork, because the idea that plate armor should be able to dance around is incorrect. Plate armor shouldn't be so maneuverable, and the lighter armors need this advantage for game balance.
3,) The "slow swing weapon" argument is a bit overblown, and time-to-kill based on everyone walking around as a tank is completely incorrect. Tanky playstyles *should* take a this long to kill, and anyone that disagrees should throw on some light armor, grab a dagger, and notice how speed and skill just *owns* armor, BUT NOT QUICKLY, as it shouldn't. TBH, IMHO turn caps should be adjusted slightly, slowing down spin additionally as run speed slows for heavy armor, and for slower swinging weapons. And that's in addition to current restrictions.
4.) Parry arcs are too wide, but this one is kind of obvious at this point.

The takeaway I've really had, foregoing big 2-handed weapons a bit, is this: we are doing a lot of great thinking on game balance based on BAD INITIAL CONDITIONS, and those initial conditions are the default armor-sets we are presented with. It seems a small thing, but it's not; I cannot stress this enough. People tend to go with what's offered. Technically you can say people can make w/e they want in game, but most don't, let's be honest. When you log in, you need to have the first choice be a very lightly armored char with a fast weapon like a dagger, the second choice be a medium heavy armor with a one hander and shield, and the third choice be a full plate with a massive 2-hander. Not only will this stop wasting all this *massive* experienced thinking on game balance based on an incomplete dataset, but will allow the grabbing of a bow on all armor-sets, and get a good feel for that too, a smaller issue I'll admit. But the simple truth is that conclusions are *strongly* based off of initial conditions, and we're drawing intelligent but inaccurate conclusions based on a really narrow set of initial conditions (armor sets, etc). If this is our combat alpha/beta, can we *please* get a more widely varied set of gear-set defaults, because people are lazy and gonna go with whats handed to them as default, most of the time, whether its a good idea or not, and because while what we have is OK to learn about ping latency, smooth animations, etc, it isn't enough to do combat balance, and like it or not, people are going ahead and drawing those conclusions (myself included). It's a small change, changing the login char choices, but I really think you'll get the next dataset you need (combat balance, not just animation/ping testing) if you do so. The clues are obvious; most people grab a massive 2-hander, and draw the conclusion that swings are too slow. most people choose heavy plate armor, and draw the conclusions that movement and stam regen are too slow; please change the defaults to encourage a wider dataset for conclusion; I think you will get so much more, from such a simple and easy change, that *not* doing it, would be a disservice. Just my opinion, feel free to disagree.

Please change the login armor-set choices with the mounts patch, so we can test a more realistic dataset. Light, medium, and heavy armorsets, archery, and mounted. THEN you will get some real feedback on game balance. My .02.
 
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Kaemik

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Nov 28, 2020
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I'd kind of like to see backhits do double-damage like they did in Darkfall. Not only would this reduce the willingness of people to do spinny tricks in combat but it makes positioning and team-fight tactics more important.

Like if someone wants to run past your frontline melee dudes to go for archers and mages in the back and opens themselves to be stickybacked in the process....