Combat Suggestions [Feedback]

[Kaemik]

Fair enough. But I can take a good chunk of your healthbar with me which is more than I can do to a skilled player right now. So I'd just take a good nodachi (has a good reach, fast attack, and not too bad of stam drain) sprint into my opponent and see how many hits I can land before they take me down. I'm not too bad at landing hits with a greatsword, it's the whole parry system I struggle with so 50% of my attacks ignoring it really makes me a lot stronger.

I have a feeling I might actually beat some people who are taken back my relentless suicidal aggression. XD

 

[Buffallo]

Ok so are "slower blocking" and block delay the same thing or are we arguing two separate subjects here? I would definitely advise you to use the term "block delay" or "delayed blocking" from now on if that's what we are arguing as "slower blocking" conjures an entirely different idea to mind for me.

And I could be wrong, sometimes ideas don't play out on the field the same way they do on paper. But if there is say... a point .5 second block delay after a parry I don't see why I wouldn't just grab the heaviest hitting weapon with a .5 second swing timer and run-up in your face and just go:

And if there isn't a weapon with a .5 second swing timer or less I don't see what a .5 second block delay is going to accomplish as I couldn't get in a hit while the delay is up.

My good friend kaernick im going to speak to you about the age old world of mo1. As it stood the reaction time of the EU players had justly been much fatser than everyone else. The latency issues of AU and similar pings gave them tremendous striking advantage and NA was the redheaded stepchild but had the slight advantage to move. Now. There was much infighting and dung flinging but at the end of the day each had their strength and weaknesses. Most NA players were shut out of reaction times as a means to fight both sides. Now did they learn twitch skills? Of course they did befause they worked but mo1 could hardly be said to be a fast twitch alone. Now for players like me who don't favor that much but use them na wise it is apparent that the softer slower systems were a good idea and bet. Most NA players used them primarily except for people that put in the extra higher level things. The fight against the NA type general skillset is a selfdefeating one because most noobs needed those skills the most first. Right now they are replaced entirely with rven harder defenses for all pings and a higher skill cap for the offense. Killing the samurai in the midrange and overall is what has clipped the wings of the newer player. It's done for illigitimate reasons.

 

[Eldrath]

I want a game to engage my brain, not just test my finger speed.

Fingerspeed is handled by the brain: I know it is called "muscle" memory but it´s not actually laid down in the muscle, but specific parts of the central nervous system.

Every competetive game that I played extensively needs more than just muscle memory. Your comments sometimes make it look like there is a divide, but to have a high skill ceiling you need to engage a broad skill set of each player. Aiming (which is part muscle memory, part game sense, part knowledge) should be front, middle and center because it is a universal skill. In that regard I think Tek is spot on.

Making aiming easier by slowing down combat is lowering the skill ceiling. Same as any shooter with aim assist will have a lower skill ceiling.

 

[Ori]

most people are more concerned with how wide the parry arc is than anything else. (It really is too wide; if you get *behind* a guy, you shouldn't get parried, you should knock the crap outta the guy,

Not convinced that's entirely true. Ask someone to block and stand still, go behind them and hit them in the back, they will take damage just fine. It just means currently if you see someone trying to run around you, you can follow them and block them.

What is it people are asking for really here? Do people really want to be able to run around peoples block when ever they feel like it?

 

[Kaemik]

You're not wrong in saying that muscle memory is a thing and that practice can help compensate for low reflexes. But muscle memory is only going to help you get past a certain level of just naturally slower reflexes not to mention internet latency.

You are wrong in saying "Making aiming easier by slowing down combat is lowering the skill ceiling". Beat a grandmaster at chess and then you can tell me how games without twitch speed have a low skill ceiling.

Both elements have their place. A certain level of reflexes giving an advantage is great. But I do think there should be a drop-off at some point of how much raw reflex can do for you. And tactics and game knowledge should pick up as what's propping up the skill ceiling after that point. I don't think the majority of RPG players are looking for a Call of Duty style game where it's all about twitch. Nor do I think players seeking immersion are looking to play chess, Magic The Gathering, or Final Fantasy.

I think there is a place for fast reflex time and constant training of motor skills to give an advantage. And I think there is a place for more thoughtful/tactical gameplay.

I guess as long as we don't lobby to make domination and necromancy severely twitch-based or totally gimped vs a 16-year-old twitch monkey with a ping of 2 I'm happy though.

 

[Ori]

Making aiming easier by slowing down combat is lowering the skill ceiling. Same as any shooter with aim assist will have a lower skill ceiling.

it just shifts balance from twitch (reactions) play over to tactical (out smarting you).

 

[Eldrath]

it just shifts balance from twitch (reactions) play over to tactical (out smarting you).

It does not. The skill ceiling is the sum of all parts that go into being excellent at the game.

Let´s say you rate how good you can get in any category with 1-10 points. All games have all of these categories. The game with the most points has the highest skill ceiling.

MO1: Twitch: 7; Game sense: 8, tactics: 7 = 22
MO2 (current): Twitch 5, Game sense 7, tactics 7 = 21
MO2 what I want: Twitch 8, game sense 8, tactics 8 = 24

Which ways of out smarting have been added compared to Mo1?

 

[Ori]

It does not. The skill ceiling is the sum of all parts that go into being excellent at the game.

Let´s say you rate how good you can get in any category with 1-10 points. All games have all of these categories. The game with the most points has the highest skill ceiling.

MO1: Twitch: 7; Game sense: 8, tactics: 7 = 22
MO2 (current): Twitch 5, Game sense 7, tactics 7 = 21
MO2 what I want: Twitch 8, game sense 8, tactics 8 = 24

Which ways of out smarting have been added compared to Mo1?

Sorry but my statement is an obvious and well known fact that you won't get around by pulling arbitrary numbers out of your nether region.

 

[Kaemik]

Given that chess has a higher skill ceiling than everyone in this conversation (Unless we have any grandmasters in here I'm unaware of) I get what you're saying but it's like saying.

"Well yes but if chess were played while unicycling across a tightrope over the grand canyon the skill ceiling would be higher"

Sure. But does that really matter if the skill ceiling of regular chess and Mega-Uni-Death-Chess™ are both something none of us are ever likely to reach?

We just need a skill ceiling that allows for very skilled players to shine. And that's achievable at any level of twitch.

 

[Ori]

Given that chess has a higher skill ceiling than everyone in this conversation (Unless we have any grandmasters in here I'm unaware of) I get what you're saying but it's like saying.

"Well yes but if chess were played while unicycling across a tightrope over the grand canyon the skill ceiling would be higher"

Sure. But does that really matter if the skill ceiling of regular chess and Mega-Uni-Death-Chess™ are both something none of us are ever likely to reach?

We just need a skill ceiling that allows for very skilled players to shine. And that's achievable at any level of twitch.

It's called speed chess, it's not considered harder.

 

[Eldrath]

Sure. But does that really matter if the skill ceiling of regular chess and Mega-Uni-Death-Chess™ are both something none of us are ever likely to reach?

In terms of twitch, tactics and game sense we had a lot of people who were GE in CS:GO. I don´t think that MO1 required even close the same twitch skill as CS:GO. So I think many actually reached that skill ceiling with ease.

 

[Kaemik]

I'm assuming GE is an acronym for a certain leaderboard ranking in Counterstrike?

Either way, it seems what you're suggesting is MO1 had a lower skill ceiling than CS:GO so it needed to be raised by making the game more twitchy. Ill assume your statement CS:GO had a higher skill ceiling is true, but that wouldn't lead me to that conclusion.

If the skill ceiling is too low, I think it needed to have more SOMETHING there to raise it. I also think more twitch isn't what's going to appeal to the general RPG player who isn't a professional FPS player for a reason.

I think Mortal Online is best with going for enough twitch skill that players are immersed and that high twitch players are rewarded for it when they play certain roles. But I think making the twitch level anywhere near CS:GO twitch drives away the target audience of an RPG. I think adding more tactical challenges is well-targeted to the type of people who are going to enjoy a game like Mortal Online.

And I think with enough tactical challenge, it could have a skill-ceiling no human player is ever likely to reach.

 

[Eldrath]

I'm assuming GE is an acronym for a certain leaderboard ranking in Counterstrike?

Either way, it seems what you're suggesting is MO1 had a lower skill ceiling that CS:GO so it needed to be raised by making the game more twitchy. Ill assume your statement CS:GO had a higher skill ceiling is true, but that wouldn't lead me to that conclusion.

If the skill ceiling is too low, I think it needed to have more SOMETHING there to raise it. I also think more twitch isn't what's going to appeal to the general RPG player who isn't a professional FPS player for a reason.

I think Mortal Online is best with going for enough twitch skill that players are immersed and that high twitch players are rewarded for it when they play certain roles. But I think making the twitch level anywhere near CS:GO twitch drives away the target audience of an RPG. I think adding more tactical challenges is well-targeted to the type of people who are going to enjoy a game like Mortal Online.

And I think with enough tactical challenge, it could have a skill-ceiling no human player is ever likely to reach.

GE means global elite. "Being a Global Elite puts you in the top 0.75% of all CS:GO players. "

---

You are getting close to the real issue. A high skill ceiling will make certain players feel in inadequate because they get outclassed by those that put in the energy to climb higher.

Mortal Online 2 has action based combat for a reason. They could have avoided soooo much trouble by making it tab-target based. I mean desync? Movement? Aiming? Server optimization? All that stuff suddenly becomes way less important when you remove reactions from the equation.

For technical reasons MO2 simply cannot have the same skill ceiling as CS:GO. That does not mean that SV should do their best to make it as high as possible. You increase the reward for being excellent at the game. If you are a player that is not willing to invest the time to learn that part of the game - find others who are. Support them. Create social structures that support your way of playing. Don´t ask the game to be changed.

 

[Kaemik]

I'm not asking for the game to be changed. Necromancy and domination both cater to players like me and I see both of them will be making a return for MO2. So the game suits me just fine.

People are lobbying for a HIGHER degree of twitch skill. They seem to want the game changed. I'm kind of against that.

I don't think that will fly well with the broader player base. I wouldn't mind seeing things added to make the game more tactical once all the major roles are out if it fills like it has a low skill ceiling.

I think for instance it would be really cool to see melee fighters, particularly shield users, get ways to punish/prevent people from running right past them into their backline. I think that would add a really cool level of tactics to team fights. But I don't think the game should be changed to have a skill ceiling any more significant than MO1. I can understand why that really appeals to you as a CS:GO player, and heck I don't even mind seeing you get some kind of super rewarding twitchy fighter build... as long as we have something like a less twitch intensive mage build that has a tactical skill ceiling of roughly equivalent power.

 

[Ori]

I'm not asking for the game to be changed. Necromancy and domination both cater to players like me and I see both of them will be making a return for MO2. So the game suits me just fine.

People are lobbying for a HIGHER degree of twitch skill. They seem to want the game changed. I'm kind of against that.

I don't think that will fly well with the broader player base. I wouldn't mind seeing things added to make the game more tactical once all the major roles are out if it fills like it has a low skill ceiling.

I think for instance it would be really cool to see melee fighters, particularly shield users, get ways to punish/prevent people from running right past them into their backline. I think that would add a really cool level of tactics to team fights. But I don't think the game should be changed to have a skill ceiling any more significant than MO1. I can understand why that really appeals to you as a CS:GO player, and heck I don't even mind seeing you get some kind of super rewarding twitchy fighter build... as long as we have something like a less twitch intensive mage build that has a tactical skill ceiling of roughly equivalent power.

Hoping magic projectiles will be Darkfall style. Won't hold my breath.

 

[Kaemik]

I just hope minos are really good this time round because even a no aim scrub like me can probably land support spells on their chonky butts. XD Also hoping there is a lot of thought I have to put into when/where/what minion to summon as a necromancer to play it at maximum effectiveness.

 

[Eldrath]

I just hope minos are really good this time round because even a no aim scrub like me can probably land support spells on their chonky butts. XD Also hoping there is a lot of thought I have to put into when/where/what minion to summon as a necromancer to play it at maximum effectiveness.

By the way, a high skill ceiling does not exclude noob tubes like that at all. Every game has them. But you don´t have to lower the skill ceiling to have them. It´s really two different things.

If SV decides that pets are supposed to be that, that´s fine by me. They just should not be superior to someoone who actually put the time in to be good at the game. SV went down that road before and it did not work out for them. I would rather have them not repeat the same mistake.

 

[boba]

Nerf the stam drain on damage taken, when you are 1vXing (more than 2 people) it is literally not possible to manage stam. ((or create a way to earn stam during a fight) but, I don't like this fix))

nerf spears by giving it a normal right* slash making animations easier to read

buff poleswords, give it the current spear animations (mo1 polesword) because they are useless currently, and require a great deal of skill points.

buff blunt damage and lower slash on lighter 2h axes so they do more than a heavy great blade, because they are useless (heavy axes like kallard are ok)

buff (slightly) the hammer hitbox/swing arc to promote less handle hits making it a tiny bit more forgiving.

give daggers a reasonable weakspot or backstab, MAYBE.

Everything is based off the 2h sword meta and I think the other weapons should be balanced to their standard. Spears also hitting for 40-45s with unreadable animations is an issue.

Also they need to remove this fast weapon charge when you hit the ground, you shouldn't be rewarded for missing. Should be punishable, if someone misses in 1vX you are toast, because they will just queue up another full charged swing and eat up your stam.

 

[Kaemik]

By the way, a high skill ceiling does not exclude noob tubes like that at all. Every game has them. But you don´t have to lower the skill ceiling to have them. It´s really two different things.

If SV decides that pets are supposed to be that, that´s fine by me. They just should not be superior to someoone who actually put the time in to be good at the game. SV went down that road before and it did not work out for them. I would rather have them not repeat the same mistake.

I don't think lower twitch builds should obviously be assumed to be "noob". I can agree, in its current form domination is... pretty darn easy. The tactical element is no greater than any other playstyle and the twitch skill needed is about non-existent.

But if a lower twitch build has more tactical challenge to it than a more twitchy build then I feel like it should be considered an equal build. Obviously, they can't force the community to view different builds as equal. And I don't really care, my self-esteem isn't really tied to how "skilled" people think I am. But in terms of game mechanics, I think if I work at the tactical mastery of a build that emphasizes tactics over twitch that it should put me on equal footing with someone who works at the twitch mastery of a very twitch oriented build.

I have high hopes that mage builds will offer power tactically oriented gameplay in MO2. And I kind of hope to see hybrids get a lot of love in offering a sweet spot in between. Would love to see something like the gems I'm sometimes finding being able to be cut and set into certain weapons and shields to allow casting of a specific spell or two while the weapon is out. Would be sweet to see something like lesser healing set into a shield for paladin builds or charging an axe so it applies corrupt on it's next hit.

 

[boba]

I don't think lower twitch builds should obviously be assumed to be "noob". I can agree, in its current form domination is... pretty darn easy. The tactical element is no greater than any other playstyle and the twitch skill needed is about non-existent.

But if a lower twitch build has more tactical challenge to it than a more twitchy build then I feel like it should be considered an equal build. Obviously, they can't force the community to view different builds as equal. And I don't really care, my self-esteem isn't really tied to how "skilled" people think I am. But in terms of game mechanics, I think if I work at the tactical mastery of a build that emphasizes tactics over twitch that it should put me on equal footing with someone who works at the twitch mastery of a very twitch oriented build.

I have high hopes that mage builds will offer power tactically oriented gameplay in MO2. And I kind of hope to see hybrids get a lot of love in offering a sweet spot in between. Would love to see something like the gems I'm sometimes finding being able to be cut and set into certain weapons and shields to allow casting of a specific spell or two while the weapon is out. Would be sweet to see something like lesser healing set into a shield for paladin builds or charging an axe so it applies corrupt on it's next hit.

Can we stay on track with the current combat system