Combat Suggestions [Feedback]

[Bernfred]

point 1 is broken and i dont understand why its still in game. hitting an object and not a player should never shorten the release+recovery time too.

instant parry renewals are odd and the fact that you cant punish faster weapons if not all due to their super low recovery windows needs to change!!!

 

[Kaemik]

I really want to see magic, taming and mounted combat make it in before we spend too much effort balancing foot fighters. As far as I see it, infantry seem to be the tanks of this combat system. They get up front and center, are hard to kill, and screen for archers, mages, minion masters etc.

When all we have implemented in the game are tanks and one single DPS role that's feels a bit buggy after the last patch and we haven't even been able to craft the best versions of their weapons yet... of course combat is going to feel slow.

I'm not saying the system is great. I'm not saying it won't need fixing down the line. But don't we want to see how all the parts work together before we say "OMG THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN!" I have a feeling parry for days will be a bit less effective when the enemy backline is thunderlashing you in the face, there is a minotaur running through your ranks, and the enemy cav are circling around to flank you with a lance charge.

Let's get all that in and THEN decide what's OP and needs to be fixed.

 

[Bernfred]

I really want to see magic, taming and mounted combat make it in before we spend too much effort balancing foot fighters. As far as I see it, infantry seem to be the tanks of this combat system. They get up front and center, are hard to kill, and screen for archers, mages, minion masters etc.

When all we have implemented in the game are tanks and one single DPS role of course combat is going to feel slow.

I'm not saying the system is great. I'm not saying it won't need fixing down the line. But don't we want to see how all the parts work together before we say "OMG THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN!"

this makes no sense because we want a good core melee combat. the combat has to to be good in all situations not just the 5% of the time where you are in a group fight or something. they have to focus 100% on the core 1vs1 XvsX foot combat right now or it will fail.

 

[Kaemik]

I highly disagree. 1v1 is the lowest form of PvP and should never be the basis of PvP balance in an MMO. As someone who usually plays a healer, tank, or when possible a tanky healer... I'd say in more games than not I straight refuse to 1v1 against my own class because the fight is boring in never ends. I don't see this to be a problem.

Anyone running around solo in this game expecting good fights. Thanks for the gear is all I can say. Because that's a horrible idea in an open world full loot MMO.

Group fights are what matter. Get those working and then maybe tweak things a bit for the 1v1 monkeys if you can do it without hurting the real PvP.

 

[Bernfred]

I highly disagree. 1v1 is the lowest form of PvP and should never be the basis of PvP balance in an MMO. As someone who usually plays a healer, tank, or when possible a tanky healer... I'd say in more games than not I straight refuse to 1v1 against my own class because the fight is boring in never ends. I don't see this to be a problem.

Anyone running around solo in this game expecting good fights. Thanks for the gear is all I can say. Because that's a horrible idea in an open world full loot MMO.

Group fights are what matter. Get those working and then maybe tweak things a bit for the 1v1 monkeys if you can do it without hurting the real PvP.

looks like you have no idea what MO is about so have fun in your dream world. btw theses suggestion improve teamfights too...

 

[Kaemik]

"If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, someone has seriously ****ed up."

I played enough of MO1 to know that's as true here as it was in EVE.

If you think 1v1s matter in an Open World PvP sandbox one of us is living in a dream world. And it isn't me.

 

[Bernfred]

"If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, someone has seriously ****ed up."

I played enough of MO1 to know that's as true here as it was in EVE.

If you think 1v1s matter in an Open World PvP sandbox one of us is living in a dream world. And it isn't me.

why do you talk about 1vs1 we talk about the core combat which affects every fight 1vs1, team fights, mages have to defend themself in melee situations... you come here and say they should balance the foot combat around other things they will implement in the future which is just very bad. and why do you think 1vs1 does not matter? im out of this conversation my blood pressure is too high.

 

[Kaemik]

Because the primary gripe I'm seeing is that anyone with decent reflexes can sit there and just parry attacks all day. That doesn't even play out quite as true in current group fights, it's mainly a problem with 1v1s where yeah if you're using bandages I've had 1v1s where the guy I was fighting literally got bored and walked away after we wailed on each other for like 5 minutes.

Also because you said and I quote "the combat has to to be good in all situations not just the 5% of the time where you are in a group fight or something. they have to focus 100% on the core 1vs1 XvsX foot combat right now or it will fail." Implying that you think 95% of combat will be 1v1s which is literally only true for a 1v1 monkey who sits in towns dueling all day instead of going out into the world to do... anything important at all.

Has it occurred to anyone else that maybe melee's role in big group fights is to be the role that is super hard to take down and keep consistent pressure on the enemy? That time-to-kill is super long because we're all playing what is essentially this game's version of tanks? That we need to know how combat feels when you're getting thunderlashed, corrupted, harassed by cav etc. before we can say that there is a problem? That this isn't Mordhau, this is Mortal Online. And we have friggen wizards baby?

Because if I went into any of my favorite PvP games that are super well balanced and deleted all but one role they would likely feel like their balance sucks too. Even IN 1v1s I want to see a hybrid fight a foot-fighter before we conclude parry is too strong.

As I said, I'm not saying there is no problem. I'm sure the problems will be super evident when all roles are in and it MIGHT be that parry is too strong. But I think some of the problems we're facing now will immediately evaporate once certain builds get introduced into the game. And perhaps the biggest problems that really need to be addressed are things we have yet to see because the builds that will bring them aren't in yet. Imagine how stupid you would feel if they balanced melee vs. melee, implement tamers or something the next day, and then tamers pack your crap in because the thing you needed to counter them was something that got removed to balance melee vs. melee.

Heck one of the suggestions in the OP is how we need more stam. Personally I find stam management easy as melee, if I get low I switch to a lighter weapon for a bit. Never run into stam issues with spear and shield and even nodachi (khurite great blade on khurite hilt) has pretty easy stam management. I find stam management quite hard while chasing someone and putting arrows into them even when I tried shortbow. More stamina is a bigger buff to archers than a good melee fighter. Something we wouldn't even know if archery hadn't been implemented.

 

[Valoran]

As I have stated, you are "bad" for not arguing the point but claiming that there is no problem, because it is just scrubs being shit at the game.

Playing the game for any amount of time does not show anything. There is tons of people who have played since beta and don´t know shit.

Stamina in MO1 was different, worked differently etc. The amount of stamina needed to kill someone was less. You had chipping damage. I could go on. I´m talking about MO2, where I actually have a few days worth of experience fighting 1vX on multiple occasions with the current patch.

I made very specific suggestions that a far from you hyperbole "playing as if stamina does not exist".

Constantly walking can be a bad habit, or is necessary to keep the pressure up (or you know, actually cause damage if someone does not refresh). Having swings uselessly charge is not something I see in videos from any competent player. So those two are not really an issue.

The fact remains that stamina is currently in a place where it piles another advantage onto playing defensive and outnumbering. Both of which already have inherent advantages.

I did not claim there is no problem, I simply pointed out a few factors that might play into someone thinking we should have more stamina or higher stamina regeneration.

Stamina in MO1 worked the exact same way actually, except for the fact that we regenerate stamina out of combat mode at the same rate as in combat mode now.



You have a bad habit of arguing against something I didn't say.


The reason why I took a break from the forums was because so many people in here just have a really awful tendency to turn simple discussions about a game into a childish shit throwing contest.

If you can't behave like an adult when communicating with another person then I won't bother talking to you. Yes I know that sounds condescending, but unfortunately it's the truth.

 

[Valoran]

This is also no slate at you, but correct me if I'm wrong; you're an AU player are you not?

Hard, unavoidable mechanics aside - a lot of balance and the way things work in combat are greatly impacted by latency. It very much changes your play style, and I find it hard to take your criticisms and or backing of things current or the forwarding of ideas when your game experience is probably vastly different from mine where as the gap between myself and EU is much smaller.

This isn't me saying "au players have no rights / opinions.", but have played with many AU players and been friends with them outside of MO - they lag, a lot. Their gameplay, is drastically different from my own. In MO1, and in MO2; and in other games for obvious reasons.

Again, you're arguing stamina; which is more of a hard, unavoidable mechanic; but as someone who plays with people who know what they're doing and me knowing what I'm doing.. I think the stamina regen is pretty bad, regardless of the armor weight.

It's hard to pin point if it's stamina too, because there are too many static variables like everyone having access to everything, everyone running the same speed regardless of race / stats, and everyone having the same stats / skills even though it's more than likely over the threshold / cap.

One thing I notice in this game, stamina goes away very quickly; and takes forever to come back.

Yes I am Australian, I have an average of 295 ping to the server not counting the internal processing time.


I can understand how you might think this would affect the way I play, but due to the ping normalization system I can actually play very competitively now with such high ping, and the only instance where my ping causes issues is if i'm fighting a very low ping player who is using a fast weapon, as they are then able to swing at me and parry at the same time.

I have an unusually good and stable connection for an Australian, with essentially no ping fluctuations or spikes, as I have a fiber connection running to my house.

Regardless, my ping does not affect my ability to manage stamina, as that isn't affected by how high my ping is. You could say that having high ping may cause you to play a different way and thus change my stamina usage, however if you think about it the most stamina conservative play style would be a defensive one, not an aggressive one which one would usually associate with high ping.

I think the factors you point out play a significant role in this situation. Once we have all the numerous variables in play, then I think it would be a more appropriate time to ask this question.

 

[Buffallo]

Alright. Going to make an open-minded, compromising post.

Players seem somewhat split on the combat. Some people say it's 40% for it, 60% against it.. others 40% against it, 60% for it.

Personally I see it as 25% for it, and 75% against it.

Regardless, I'm willing to step to those of you who support the combat and present some potential ideas that I might of presented in the past as a way to quell our issues with the combat instead of saying "make combat faster" even though that would fix most of our problems.

1.) If you miss a swing, the delay to start another swing should be longer which encourages good footwork. Right now the delay is small, and almost easily avoided. Especially considering most people now swing at the ground to make their swings come out faster if they know they're going to miss their first swing. If someone now misses, they can be punished.

2.) Push should guard break for a small amount of time. Nothing crazy. At most like half a second. This will allow players in groups to coordinate. "You push him to guard break, I'll hit him." The way to prevent this from being zerg friendly? Set an internal cooldown timer on people affected by it. Make it like a 30 second timer which prevents it from happening again.

3.) Idea 2, but instead with a shield; which increases the guard break time from half a second to a full second to a second and a half. Internal timer on this would be a minute longer to balance the strength of it. Also makes shields more useful, and would get rid of the weird momentum bash. (Or just keep the momentum bush + guard breaking? Would be counter intuitive but yeah.)

4.) Add chip damage in for weapons. Blunt-heavy weapons should do chip damage, with blunt-medium weapons doing some chip damage, and blunt-light weapons doing little to no chip damage. Bladed weapons (Swords) or pointed (Spears) should do not chip damage. This makes blunt weapons useful, as opposed to right now where they suck and are supper gimmicky. To simplify this.

Two Handed & One Handed Hammers = Blunt Heavy
Two Handed & One Handed Axes = Blunt Medium
Spears = No Blunt
Poleaxes = Blunt Light
Poleswords = No Blunt
Swords = No Blunt
Daggers = No Blunt

5.) Parry arc should be FINELY TUNED downward, so going around parries becomes a thing again. It shouldn't happen every time someone runs around you, but people who don't follow the weapon should take blocked / full damage.

6.) Add more stamina / increase stamina regen. Stamina is shit in this game, feels like it runs out way too quick and regens way too slow.

Those are my ideas that don't consist of "make combat faster."

What do you guys think?

5 will fix all of the above and somewhat of 4 mostly because the slower weapons do not land nearly enough. It won't add dura damage which is still needed. If camera knockback came back it would restore some heft to the blunt weapons and make for better footcombat attention to awareness. Obviously excorbitant amounts will make everything much worse but a small amount would make it much more tense in 1v1.

6 in my opinion is the wrong direction because the current use of stamina is noticeably less efficient than in mo1 but lowering it will not exemplify the problem due to 5 not being well placed yet.

 

[Eldrath]

People are also terrible at managing their stamina and tend to just waste all of it then stand there regenerating and complain instead of finely managing it the whole time. The only way to prevent these complaints would be to add so much regeneration that no one ever runs out, which is obviously not a good idea.

This is how you started the discussion about stamina. And you accuse other people of shit throwing contests?

Again, you make claims, can´t back any of them up and when someone like me points that out to you you insult them. I think you are used to people letting you get away with this kind of shit.

Since you have done this in multiple discussions (start out with insults and belittling, then walking it back, then accusing those who disagree with you of doing the same) I think there is really no point in discussing anything with you on a meaningful level.

On the topic at hand you have written a lot without saying much. If make claims about your personal skill, or even that of other I expect an adult to provide evidence. If you can´t I won´t take what you are saying seriously. Works like that in real life and on the forums.

 

[Valoran]

This is how you started the discussion about stamina. And you accuse other people of shit throwing contests?

Again, you make claims, can´t back any of them up and when someone like me points that out to you you insult them. I think you are used to people letting you get away with this kind of shit.

Since you have done this in multiple discussions (start out with insults and belittling, then walking it back, then accusing those who disagree with you of doing the same) I think there is really no point in discussing anything with you on a meaningful level.

On the topic at hand you have written a lot without saying much. If make claims about your personal skill, or even that of other I expect an adult to provide evidence. If you can´t I won´t take what you are saying seriously. Works like that in real life and on the forums.

My comments about stamina are not insulting to anyone, unless you're one of those people who does the things I mentioned. They're observations about what I have seen in the game, MO1 and MO2.

At no point did I say "I am the best stamina manager in the entire game" nor did I personally attack you or make my argument on game mechanics about you or your apparent personal skill level, yet that's what you immediately shot for as soon as you encountered criticism from someone you don't like. As if my ability to play the game somehow affects how the average player plays, or if what I say is objectively true or not. Laughable.

As far as backing up my claims, what claims have I made exactly? That standing still more often in a fight and doing things like not charging swings when you don't need to will save you some stamina and prevent you from running out? If you need to see a video of that happening to believe it then...

I already told you, simply do what I said for yourself and see whether or not it helps with your stamina management, instead of yet another attempt at shit throwing simply because you have nothing better to do.

Have a read through my entire history and please do point out anywhere I start discussions with insults and belittling, or do we suddenly not have to back up things we say? You could cut the irony in your comments with a knife.

I made my points in the first comment I posted, yet for some reason you're incapable of understanding that and choose to start arguments over nothing because you can't take "maybe not" for an answer while crutching on the off chance i'm actually terrible at the game so you can use that as an argument to further your position. In the future I would advise not turning a simple discussion about a game mechanic into a page long waste of space.

"I want more stamina and faster stamina regeneration"
"That might not be required, remember to take the following factors into account"
"Can you provide a pvp video to show that you know what you're talking about?"
"I don't record myself, and a video of me won't change whether what i'm saying is true or not."

Shit throwing intensifies.

This is your go to behaviour along with many others on this forum and projecting that onto me isn't going to help your case. I am only entertaining it in the hopes that others who are reading these threads don't think the entire community lets people like you walk around without contest, but this is getting pretty stale now so I won't be replying to you anymore on this thread.

 

[Handsome Young Man]

This is how you started the discussion about stamina. And you accuse other people of shit throwing contests?

Again, you make claims, can´t back any of them up and when someone like me points that out to you you insult them. I think you are used to people letting you get away with this kind of shit.

Since you have done this in multiple discussions (start out with insults and belittling, then walking it back, then accusing those who disagree with you of doing the same) I think there is really no point in discussing anything with you on a meaningful level.

On the topic at hand you have written a lot without saying much. If make claims about your personal skill, or even that of other I expect an adult to provide evidence. If you can´t I won´t take what you are saying seriously. Works like that in real life and on the forums.

I have to kind of agree with this, I started MO1 after this guy yet I don't think I ever heard or played against him at all? Not saying that my memory of people justify their presence, or that being known was important; but for someone I never knew that was playing to know so very much and to be "right" about so much is just kind of hard to swallow for me.

Before the speed reduction and ping normalization, I've fought you (Valoran) in the MO2 alpha. You'd beat me, but that was in like my first 3 hours of playing. After that I'd just run circles around him.

Idk. People who aren't good at specific things giving feedback on them makes me wary for a lot of reasons.

 

[Buffallo]

I Think maintaining the outlook that a view is a moving hypothesis helps the most. If things are understood to work best a certain way then it should help that whenever all the elements suddenly fit together it could be viewed as the most accurate. If they don't then nothing will really lend itself to represent something people agree is good.

 

[Valoran]

I have to kind of agree with this, I started MO1 after this guy yet I don't think I ever heard or played against him at all? Not saying that my memory of people justify their presence, or that being known was important; but for someone I never knew that was playing to know so very much and to be "right" about so much is just kind of hard to swallow for me.

Before the speed reduction and ping normalization, I've fought you (Valoran) in the MO2 alpha. You'd beat me, but that was in like my first 3 hours of playing. After that I'd just run circles around him.

Idk. People who aren't good at specific things giving feedback on them makes me wary for a lot of reasons.

You don't remember me from MO1 because I didn't play MO1 with this name.

I'm seriously not trying to brag, but I haven't lost more than a handful of duels since the ping normalization was added, so i'm not sure what you're referring to.

Unless you mean you were running circles around me before the ping normalization was added, in which case I completely believe you, as it was impossible to play properly for high ping players at that stage.

My main point here though is that someones credibility has nothing to do with the statements they make if those statements are easily verifiable. You don't need to take my word on anything, and I haven't even said anything that crazy here, literally just manage your movement better and you'll have more stamina to work with, I'm not exactly spouting a new religion here.

 

[Eldrath]

I have to kind of agree with this, I started MO1 after this guy yet I don't think I ever heard or played against him at all? Not saying that my memory of people justify their presence, or that being known was important; but for someone I never knew that was playing to know so very much and to be "right" about so much is just kind of hard to swallow for me.

Before the speed reduction and ping normalization, I've fought you (Valoran) in the MO2 alpha. You'd beat me, but that was in like my first 3 hours of playing. After that I'd just run circles around him.

Idk. People who aren't good at specific things giving feedback on them makes me wary for a lot of reasons.

Pretty much this.

I´m not for gatekeeping feedback in any way, but when people makes claims about mechanics based on their expertise (or using their expertise to judge others) I think they should provide some form of proof. Although I have my limits on calling bad apples out and won´t derail your thread further.

Anyway, I doubt that SV is gonna changed the stamina regeneration. What I could see is changing charging and swing costs to compensate for the high time-to-kill and to make weapon crafting more versatile. Currently it is pretty stale.

Edit:
I do think it´s funny that the both of you have played Mo1 for extended periods of time, but felt the need to change your usernames. Maybe you are brothers at heart?

 

[Handsome Young Man]

Pretty much this.

I´m not for gatekeeping feedback in any way, but when people makes claims about mechanics based on their expertise (or using their expertise to judge others) I think they should provide some form of proof. Although I have my limits on calling bad apples out and won´t derail your thread further.

Anyway, I doubt that SV is gonna changed the stamina regeneration. What I could see is changing charging and swing costs to compensate for the high time-to-kill and to make weapon crafting more versatile. Currently it is pretty stale.

Edit:
I do think it´s funny that the both of you have played Mo1 for extended periods of time, but felt the need to change your usernames. Maybe you are brothers at heart?

Yeah maybe haha.

Listen, I don't think his ideas or bad or not founded without reason. But I have seen this similar tend occur with him and others about their own feedback.

That isn't to say we don't all do it to some extent.

Regardless...

You don't remember me from MO1 because I didn't play MO1 with this name.

I'm seriously not trying to brag, but I haven't lost more than a handful of duels since the ping normalization was added, so i'm not sure what you're referring to.

Unless you mean you were running circles around me before the ping normalization was added, in which case I completely believe you, as it was impossible to play properly for high ping players at that stage.

My main point here though is that someones credibility has nothing to do with the statements they make if those statements are easily verifiable. You don't need to take my word on anything, and I haven't even said anything that crazy here, literally just manage your movement better and you'll have more stamina to work with, I'm not exactly spouting a new religion here.

I mean fair enough. I will say this, I did try lighter weapons and armor the other day; and the stamina works the same regen wise as MO1. It starts at 14 and goes up. At 14 armor weight it's about a 17.5 second wait for full stam, and 25 seconds with the Tindremic Knight Armor (Default). That's a 7-8 second difference which seems small, but in a group scenario your regen shoots up a lot faster.

Stamina still feels shit though, being hit taking your stamina away sucks ass.

 

[Kaemik]

I Think maintaining the outlook that a view is a moving hypothesis helps the most. If things are understood to work best a certain way then it should help that whenever all the elements suddenly fit together it could be viewed as the most accurate. If they don't then nothing will really lend itself to represent something people agree is good.

I think the issue is that you never usually get to play a game long at this stage of development. There is literally a single role. The build we have now (melee with bow) is totally doable in-game. It's doable in MO1 even. You can fit all the current skills on a single character most likely (aside from the ability to use every single type of melee weapon). Most games even in alpha are going to have at least 3-5 classes/roles in fairly quickly.

How can we really judge a role until it has SOME interaction with the other roles? ANY other role? Heck we don't even know what a more archery focused character will be like given we don't have bow crafting or all the archery skills activated yet. It's fairly reasonable to assume based on the fact that it's quite easy to shoot past blocks and on archer and that mounted charges couldn't be parried in MO1 that literally, every role in the game that foot-melee will be able to ignore parries with the probable exception of certain pets.

Parry may not feel overpowered at all once all the other roles make it in. So why try to balance a single role against itself? Why not see how it fits into the larger scheme of things and then balance that?

 

[Buffallo]

I think the issue is that you never usually get to play a game long at this stage of development. There is literally a single role. The build we have now (melee with bow) is totally doable in-game. It's doable in MO1 even. You can fit all the current skills on a single character most likely (aside from the ability to use every single type of melee weapon). Most games even in alpha are going to have at least 3-5 classes/roles in fairly quickly.

How can we really judge a role until it has SOME interaction with the other roles? ANY other role? Heck we don't even know what a more archery focused character will be like given we don't have bow crafting or all the archery skills activated yet. It's fairly reasonable to assume based on the fact that it's quite easy to shoot past blocks and on archer and that mounted charges couldn't be parried in MO1 that literally, every role in the game that foot-melee will be able to ignore parries with the probable exception of certain pets.

Parry may not feel overpowered at all once all the other roles make it in. So why try to balance a single role against itself? Why not see how it fits into the larger scheme of things and then balance that?

By that same logic we can ask why should parry be this strong. I think in it's iterarion previously it was very strong. Again it's an argument of options and having a clear example from mo1 gives credence to the notion from set.