Why Alvarins and MAs need to be nerfed SPECIFICALLY before Sarducca.

Iloros

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Dec 14, 2023
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Before the Sarducca patch brings a wave of new players, Star Vault needs to address the Alvarin and Mounted Archer balance problem.


Right now, Alvarin isn't just strong, or a little bit OP, it's effectively the only competitive race choice for PvP. In a game with four races, seeing one race make up the overwhelming majority of ALL and especially serious PvP players (we are talking guilds like Wigsplit are literally all on Alvarins, though they also seem to cheat) is a huge red flag. Mortal Online 2 is heavily PvP-focused, and when 3 out of 4 races are viewed as significantly weaker, player choice becomes an illusion, horrible for MMOs or any game.


The same applies to Mounted Archers. MAs dominate open-world combat to a degree that makes Mounted Combat and many other playstyles feel obsolete, they are able to even nuke footies now. The issue is amplified because Alvarin is also one of 2 race choices for the build which is unsurprising, Alvarins are most popular at all builds (footie, mage, archer, hybrid, mounted)


Some players argue that balance doesn't matter because people will always meta-chase. That's true to a point. There is a massive difference between a healthy meta where the strongest option is 5-10% better and an unhealthy meta where one race and one build are so far ahead that they become mandatory. The first one is completely fine for game's health even especially if you shake the meta up often, the second option is literally death of a game or permanent low pop, bottlenecked by balance issues simply because non meta players in soft meta stay because it's dealable with, but in hard meta like Alvarins in MO2 they leave.


History has shown this repeatedly across MMORPGs and competitive games. When players discover that the class, race, or build they want to play is non-viable, many simply quit. Most players don't reroll and especially won't for a mixed review game with already bad rep. They won't waste hundreds of hours and some irl money rebuilding a character because balance was ignored. They WILL leave.


New player retention is often determined in the first few weeks. Imagine joining MO2 because you want to be a Thursar warrior, an Oghmir tank, or a Human hybrid, only to realize that nearly every successful PvP player is running Alvarin or Mounted Archer. It creates disappointment, tons of people, myself included have a high preference for a playstyle/race/aesthetics/class in MMORPGs and any games really, I personally would NEVER play an Alvarin, not out of spite but because it completely misaligns with my preferences.


Archery in general, which both overpowered builds are the best at already are also gonna be early game meta. They deal with even steel footies with defense trinkets and much larger HP pools already, imagine the same bow because it costs nothing, with 20% pierce cuprums that people will also be quick to get in incisium/reptile 170-225 health no pot characters meta. MAs in a desert with no TC, no buildings, no houses to hide in, pure domination as if what they do on Myrland isn't enough. Those 2 overpowered builds also happen to be the best early game PVP builds with no investment due to how bows work, we are talking about Sarducca wipe, everyone in bad gear no pots no concentration, Archers dominate, best archers? Alvarins by far.


The Sarducca launch is a rare opportunity to grow the game. But if new players enter a meta where one race dominates while multiple races struggle to justify their existence literally, many of those players won't stay long enough to see future content which includes potential nerf a month or two later that makes other races way more playable, but Timmy is onto another game already, one that respects bruiser, tank, fighter, battlemage archetype playstyles.


Balance isn't just about fairness, it's about retention, the most popular games tend to spam balance pathes. It's about making sure players feel their choices matter. If Star Vault wants Sarducca to succeed, bringing Alvarin and Mounted Archer closer to the rest of the game should be a priority before the influx of new players arrives or most of them will leave due to something preventable with a few number changes.


Henrik's stream is in 30-40 hours, please remind him of this. When PTR comes out, remind them of this issue again if you are with me, we need direct Alvarin and MA nerfs before or with Sarducca launch or the game will suffer massive losses of players who aren't gonna tolerate such inbalance.
 

Jackdstripper

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SV has had 10 years of experience with MO1 to understand how unbalanced foot speed is for such a game. Did they learn? Nope. We are right back to how it was back then, with Vheelas dominating all races simply because, the most effective way to avoid damage, is to just be faster and run away. Best way to survive most situations is to have the ability to disengage and heal on the run. Best way to finish opponents is to be able to chase them down. Speed, speed, speed.

MAs are no different, they are the speediest mounted option able to chase and disengage the best. MMs have to go in a straight line to cast and MCs deal no damage while chasing or being chased.

At this point, any reasonable person has to conceded that this is completely intentional. Henrik likes it this way. There is no changing his mind. No point beating a dead horse.
 
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manure

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May 7, 2022
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You have a point, there needs to be a balanced combat system, not a mandatory template to be competitive... but the main reason for this desolation in game has nothing to do with combat.

Its the lack of content. If everything a MMO has to offer is "combat" and nothing else, it will eventually become tedious and boring.

A good game must have several options to choose... go back in the past and take a look at how Ultima Online was in the very beginning... besides combat, you had skills like begging, stealing, tailoring, herding, lockpicking, evaluation intelligence to detect whoever was hidden criminal inside towns... plus, we were able to buy ships and sail the world, fight sea monsters, hunt for treasures, you were able to hire NPCs to escort you, there was escorting missions, thieves guild...Hell, we were even able to steal house keys and LOOT PLAYER HOUSES (it was so amazing) SO MANY THINGS besides combat that simply made the game incredible !!!

Whenever you got tired of combat, you knew there were several other cool stuff to do, absolutely not related to pvp...

And thats my point... Mortal Online2 doesnt have any of this... or has only a few stuff other than combat.
Like 80% of the patches are related to combat things... armors, weapons, combat rules...
Nothing related to content.
We have no boats, no thieving, no lockpicking... what a bore.

If we decide to do something evil inside towns, we are killed on sight by elite tindremic guards.. WHAT A BORE !

This game didnt have much back there in 2022, but it was SO MUCH better... we were able to climb houses and shoot horses from up there without being killed by Xray vision guards... reds would invade towns and resist the few guards that didnt insta kill them (Fab invasions were super cool)...
It used to be exciting to travel from town to town... today, what we have ? Roads 100% safe with tower guards...guards on fishing villages, guards outside dungeons, guards on graveyards.... jesus

Medulis graveyard always had some quick action with reds luring towns people for fights... today its a complete desert, because there are elite tindremic guards inside the cemetery... BOOOORING...

So, thats it.
This game lacks content !
Sarducca will be empty too if they dont give us content... its not because the lack of combat balance...

THIEVING is a must... Followed by Boats and poisoning and lockpicking.
 
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Iloros

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Dec 14, 2023
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SV has had 10 years of experience with MO1 to understand how unbalanced foot speed is for such a game. Did they learn? Nope. We are right back to how it was back then, with Vheelas dominating all races simply because, the most effective way to avoid damage, is to just be faster and run away. Best way to survive most situations is to have the ability to disengage and heal on the run. Best way to finish opponents is to be able to chase them down. Speed, speed, speed.

MAs are no different, they are the speediest mounted option able to chase and disengage the best. MMs have to go in a straight line to cast and MCs deal no damage while chasing or being chased.

At this point, any reasonable person has to conceded that this is completely intentional. Henrik likes it this way. There is no changing his mind. No point beating a dead horse.
I think it's mostly unintentional and laziness/underestimating the importance of balance. He is not adamant on not nerfing Alvarins he nerfed every other race a few times already.
 

Iloros

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Dec 14, 2023
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You have a point, there needs to be a balanced combat system, not a mandatory template to be competitive... but the main reason for this desolation in game has nothing to do with combat.

Its the lack of content. If everything a MMO has to offer is "combat" and nothing else, it will eventually become tedious and boring.

A good game must have several options to choose... go back in the past and take a look at how Ultima Online was in the very beginning... besides combat, you had skills like begging, stealing, tailoring, herding, lockpicking, evaluation intelligence to detect whoever was hidden criminal inside towns... plus, we were able to buy ships and sail the world, fight sea monsters, hunt for treasures, you were able to hire NPCs to escort you, there was escorting missions, thieves guild...Hell, we were even able to steal house keys and LOOT PLAYER HOUSES (it was so amazing) SO MANY THINGS besides combat that simply made the game incredible !!!

Whenever you got tired of combat, you knew there were several other cool stuff to do, absolutely not related to pvp...

And thats my point... Mortal Online2 doesnt have any of this... or has only a few stuff other than combat.
Like 80% of the patches are related to combat things... armors, weapons, combat rules...
Nothing related to content.
We have no boats, no thieving, no lockpicking... what a bore.

If we decide to do something evil inside towns, we are killed on sight by elite tindremic guards.. WHAT A BORE !

This game didnt have much back there in 2022, but it was SO MUCH better... we were able to climb houses and shoot horses from up there without being killed by Xray vision guards... reds would invade towns and resist the few guards that didnt insta kill them (Fab invasions were super cool)...
It used to be exciting to travel from town to town... today, what we have ? Roads 100% safe with tower guards...guards on fishing villages, guards outside dungeons, guards on graveyards.... jesus

Medulis graveyard always had some quick action with reds luring towns people for fights... today its a complete desert, because there are elite tindremic guards inside the cemetery... BOOOORING...

So, thats it.
This game lacks content !
Sarducca will be empty too if they dont give us content... its not because the lack of combat balance...

THIEVING is a must... Followed by Boats and poisoning and lockpicking.
Brother I just explained why balance and combat meta is a huge deal in why players leave and you just said "nope it's this other thing".

Post mastery patch we had less content, worse performance for people that remember tons of people used to crash in 20v20+ myself included, yet the game with a sub had 1000ish players with 1400 peaks because guess what gameplay is fun.


You cannot disregard impact horrible meta that only allows 1 clade to be played and therefore 70% of potential players to go "eh my clade is weak I wont even play". There is almost no Thursars, Humans, Oghmirs not because they ALL rerolled to Alvarins, some did and are playing way less, but because most of them straight up left.


Can a game have multiple issues at once? Yes. But you are one of those guys that cause a problem with balance by heavily underestimating it. Yes actually pvp gameplay matters in a pvp game and balance has everything to fo with it.

Name me a single game that made it in which one class/race is more popular than all the other ones combined for an extended period of time. You can't because a game like that will just flop.


Thieving is a negative and boats could be cool. But you gotta balance the game first. You are a literal griefer red that wants to murder hobo for free and you just suggested a few terrible ideas lmao. That's jsut you bro, majority playerbase doesnt actually wanna jump on houses and kill horses, tf weirdo.
 

manure

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May 7, 2022
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Deny it as much as you want, but if you have a game with only honorable players, helpful players, fair fights and whatever you think is fair, the game is always fated to be boring and die.

A good game will have evil players, unfair playstyles, griefers, newbie killers.. thats what make things exciting... it automatically creates content among players... reason to fight for... feeling of success when you kill a group of griefers... or when u kill a dangerous evil player... feeling of being avenged...whatever...

The suggestions I gave were not terrible ideas. Maybe they were bad only for your selfish ego.
Your playstyle is not everyone's playstyle... If you arent able to kill an Alvarin, that doesnt mean the game is 100% unbalanced... it means you simply lack strategy to counter them.
I wont say this game doesnt need some balance in combat... I hate warriors doing 140 hit point in ONE HIT... thats lame.. Hate lancers doing 180 damage with one hit.... Used to hate white bears back then too...
But I say the game needs much more content than another ordinary combat balance patch !

And Thieving isnt a "negative"... It belongs to the core idea of Mortal Online. It should have been added since DAY ONE !

Anyway, I wont be against your saga... if they ever open up a poll to decide for any changes on alvarin to "balance" the way you think is correct, I will vote yes...
But Id rather have a content patch than a combat patch.
 
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Iloros

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Deny it as much as you want, but if you have a game with only honorable players, helpful players, fair fights and whatever you think is fair, the game is always fated to be boring and die.

A good game will have evil players, unfair playstyles, griefers, newbie killers.. thats what make things exciting... it automatically creates content among players... reason to fight for... feeling of success when you kill a group of griefers... or when u kill a dangerous evil player... feeling of being avenged...whatever...

The suggestions I gave were not terrible ideas. Maybe they were bad only for your selfish ego.
Your playstyle is not everyone's playstyle... If you arent able to kill an Alvarin, that doesnt mean the game is 100% unbalanced... it means you simply lack strategy to counter them.
I wont say this game doesnt need some balance in combat... I hate warriors doing 140 hit point in ONE HIT... thats lame.. Hate lancers doing 180 damage with one hit.... Used to hate white bears back then too...
But I say the game needs much more content than another ordinary combat balance patch !

And Thieving isnt a "negative"... It belongs to the core idea of Mortal Online. It should have been added since DAY ONE !

Anyway, I wont be against your saga... if they ever open up a poll to decide for any changes on alvarin to "balance" the way you think is correct, I will vote yes...
But Id rather have a content patch than a combat patch.
They are bad ideas and irrelevant to the original topic of the post.
 

Emdash

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nerf volley and see what happens.

Remove armor pen for runner's high. See what happens.
 

Iloros

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Hahahaha, elf master race forever. ZERO balance coming for Sarducca.
I mean Sarducca genuinely instaflops, the big Ducca stream had 1000 people watching lol, some NA guys will comeback get GENUINELY 3 shot by a bow user and instantly quit and since Sarducca was like the last hope for many people it's ggs. Game already fell to 200s multiple times, 200 on 2 huge maps will be foom downwards.
 

Iloros

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His answer to everyone asking for balance in the stream was really disheartening. Henrik clearly doesn't comprehend the extent of the problem. Just nuts, not sure what else to say.
Super true, he treats balance as a joke, reads legit 50 people saying "nerf alvarins" goes "I don't wanna talk about balance because haha it's impossible haha" okay bro, the game wont get 1k pop for longer than a month even post Sard lmao.
 

RaptorBlackz

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You're better off forwarding your thoughts/feedback to nebulous for game-design and balance, Henrik shrugged off the change in the stream and simply said Alvarins are Flavour of the Month.

They've been Flavour of the Month since MO1, not only that they added the Runners High to counter high defense Thursars only to Heavily Nerf the same clade it was meant to counter in the first place making it much worse.

Personally I think "Runners High" should be nerfed, Remove the armour penetration but replace it with the weapon hitbox going through equipment hits, This would be to counter Shield users specifically mages.
Should be the first step.
 

Emdash

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Sep 22, 2021
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Bows are not op, alvarins are. Volley does not need a nerf

MA without volley is much different. Having 3 full charged straight shots back2back is crazy, but the fact that alv gets it to start is even crazier. I think volley makes sense on the ground, not so much on a mount.

Volley is OP. Like no joke OP, on a mount. No stam use, either. It's very poorly thought out mechanically. Even if you needed to 'reserve' 50 stam or something to use volley, it would be better.

You have some weird takes, brother. I feel like sometimes you are trolling, and I have the urge to respond in kind, but like your inability to understand why having a low weight high pierce armor would be good situationally and you not understanding why getting 3 shots in a row autoloaded w/ full damage and no stam, that shoot way straighter and harder... like I had a debate with my friend who was like 'nah I think it's the same,' shoot a volley shot straight up and compare haha. The physics is insane.

But yea... that's the first step to MA just as runner's high armor pen is first step to alv. We gotta start thinking about why Alv went from a huge annoyance to meta meta. I'd bet dmg is a big reason...?
 

Iloros

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MA without volley is much different. Having 3 full charged straight shots back2back is crazy, but the fact that alv gets it to start is even crazier. I think volley makes sense on the ground, not so much on a mount.

Volley is OP. Like no joke OP, on a mount. No stam use, either. It's very poorly thought out mechanically. Even if you needed to 'reserve' 50 stam or something to use volley, it would be better.

You have some weird takes, brother. I feel like sometimes you are trolling, and I have the urge to respond in kind, but like your inability to understand why having a low weight high pierce armor would be good situationally and you not understanding why getting 3 shots in a row autoloaded w/ full damage and no stam, that shoot way straighter and harder... like I had a debate with my friend who was like 'nah I think it's the same,' shoot a volley shot straight up and compare haha. The physics is insane.

But yea... that's the first step to MA just as runner's high armor pen is first step to alv. We gotta start thinking about why Alv went from a huge annoyance to meta meta. I'd bet dmg is a big reason...?
MA is inherently OP with weapon abilities. It needs to get stripped of them just like MC and MM did. We do not want to nerf somethinf that isnt even used much for non Alvarins. Nerf Alvarins and specifically target MA too. Not a weapon rarely anyone other than them uses.


You attack the outliers, not what outliers happen to use.

It's as simple as - I wanna use bows, bows are not op at all on my class or any class other than Alvarin - I don't want bow nerfs.

MA obviously needs a direct nerf they should get damage penalty no weakspot and no abilities. You cant have 450 hp (taur dog) 1000 speed and do 75s trhough steel. Thats inherently OP.

They also shit on draco even if you make it 75 pierce lmao. They weakspot and armor pierce mate.
 

Iloros

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Dec 14, 2023
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You're better off forwarding your thoughts/feedback to nebulous for game-design and balance, Henrik shrugged off the change in the stream and simply said Alvarins are Flavour of the Month.

They've been Flavour of the Month since MO1, not only that they added the Runners High to counter high defense Thursars only to Heavily Nerf the same clade it was meant to counter in the first place making it much worse.

Personally I think "Runners High" should be nerfed, Remove the armour penetration but replace it with the weapon hitbox going through equipment hits, This would be to counter Shield users specifically mages.
Should be the first step.
There needs to be multiple things but yes Henrik is very stubborn on balance for no reason, "flavour of the month" is a CRAZY thing to say and proves he, himself does not.pay attention to balance at all.

They got bombarded with anti Alvarin questions on the stream to a point where they def did notice a pattern they also did surveys asking what the strongest competitive clsde is and it has to be Alvarin. They asked that like 2 days before releasing the patch so I'd assume it was meant for next (this) patch. And I mean the community is overwhelming now excluding myself even, discors is full od it, forums have 5-6 Alvarins are OP posts excluding myself last month, his twitch got spammed, PTR will get spammed

When pop goes up and new and returning players en masse see the current dominant clear meta they will cry, complain, leave bad reviews due to it and quit till SV folds.

We will gain tons od new players, current pop is literally all pro Alvarin people who are willing to stay in this goofy meta, if we get 2k concurent 1500 ppl will not only dislike the meta but be completely unable to play the game due to it, tons of streamers too like Lordus will come back and complain about literally gettinf 3 shot by MA, Klean was very meta focused, Barados will roll a Thursar and get rolled by Alvarins even though he will be on great ping and is a good player already he is all smiles but he is playing another game rn the meta is goofy asf.

Like every non Alvarin player and streamer (the reason I mention streamers is because Henrik folds to streamers) will get rolled on repeat unless they are in a 10 man with Alvarins lmao. Its the most dominant and consistent meta they cannot put a blind eye on forever, Henrik barely did it for 2 hours in a stream he was struggling to find any question not balance related (he hates balance) so he was talking about rideable Campadon for 3 minutes to say "we are working on it".

Did he act weird about it? Yes. Did I expect him to ever say "the class you all plsy is getting nerfed for Sarducca and we want negative review bomb before new players join and I really care about balance" no. He never talked balance always brushed it off and then Nebulos would nerf Oghmirs and tower shields a week after a stream where Henrik said "balance is hard people never agree".
 

Emdash

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Sep 22, 2021
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MA is inherently OP with weapon abilities. It needs to get stripped of them just like MC and MM did. We do not want to nerf somethinf that isnt even used much for non Alvarins. Nerf Alvarins and specifically target MA too. Not a weapon rarely anyone other than them uses.


You attack the outliers, not what outliers happen to use.

It's as simple as - I wanna use bows, bows are not op at all on my class or any class other than Alvarin - I don't want bow nerfs.

MA obviously needs a direct nerf they should get damage penalty no weakspot and no abilities. You cant have 450 hp (taur dog) 1000 speed and do 75s trhough steel. Thats inherently OP.

They also shit on draco even if you make it 75 pierce lmao. They weakspot and armor pierce mate.

it was 78/79. It was crazy. Steel blood silk draco was over 70. There is a difference. Keep in mind you get base then you get all stacking bonuses on top of it that are % based. That's why like I rolled a Thur MA for trolls and I hit ridiculous dmg because the base of a 125 asym when put thru the ringer of modifiers, turns out to be a noticable difference. If I ever get lucky, I'll get some +4s, too, and end up with 133 :eek: :eek: but I need % pierce, too.

I think you understand part of the game, but you don't understand as much as you think. I have my viewpoints on melee, for instance, but I don't go around talking like I know the best way because 'it's obvious.' If you don't think people use volley, I dunno what to say. It's not only alv that uses volley. MA volley is very strong. If it was ground only, that would be a nerf. And that would be good, to me.

Dunno what else to say, man.

I'll make some vids of how fast and how much dmg ma volley actually does. You're thinking about v foot, but MA generally is a roaming class and thus starts with dismounting. The dmg a volley can do to a mount is out of this world.
 

Iloros

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it was 78/79. It was crazy. Steel blood silk draco was over 70. There is a difference. Keep in mind you get base then you get all stacking bonuses on top of it that are % based. That's why like I rolled a Thur MA for trolls and I hit ridiculous dmg because the base of a 125 asym when put thru the ringer of modifiers, turns out to be a noticable difference. If I ever get lucky, I'll get some +4s, too, and end up with 133 :eek: :eek: but I need % pierce, too.

I think you understand part of the game, but you don't understand as much as you think. I have my viewpoints on melee, for instance, but I don't go around talking like I know the best way because 'it's obvious.' If you don't think people use volley, I dunno what to say. It's not only alv that uses volley. MA volley is very strong. If it was ground only, that would be a nerf. And that would be good, to me.

Dunno what else to say, man.

I'll make some vids of how fast and how much dmg ma volley actually does. You're thinking about v foot, but MA generally is a roaming class and thus starts with dismounting. The dmg a volley can do to a mount is out of this world.
There is literally no stackinh bonuses anymore.

All MAs are op not just Alvarins though Alvarin is the best choice. MA needs a nerf. Most mounted builds are MAs if not all.

All foot archers and other builds too are mostly Alvarins, Alvarin needs a nerf.

Most players are not bow users and especially do not have more than 100 points into it. Bows are NOT op they are average on 3 out of 4 races.
 

Emdash

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Sep 22, 2021
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There is literally no stackinh bonuses anymore.

All MAs are op not just Alvarins though Alvarin is the best choice. MA needs a nerf. Most mounted builds are MAs if not all.

All foot archers and other builds too are mostly Alvarins, Alvarin needs a nerf.

Most players are not bow users and especially do not have more than 100 points into it. Bows are NOT op they are average on 3 out of 4 races.

Maltie sez whatever dood.
 

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