What must be in game for Persistent?

Crom

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I understand the idea I’m just saying even though its going to be called an EA its still going to be the release because there will be no wipes after EA the general public will consider this as the release and grade the game on that especially since it will be full price. They wont have the same attention they have now 6months to a year down the line if they botch the “EA”. Few people will want to start a game knowing they will be losing every battle to the geared people who have figured out the game. I mean i did with mo1 but still most people wont. So I guess I’m trying to say SV needs to make sure their “EA” release is pretty on point or they may not get a second chance with this attention at “release”

Imo TC really should be ingame because its what gives people something to work/fight, a month or two after ea with no TC in a game that really has little to no grind and no quests will see a huge drop off in player base.
Ok, now this is where it gets really interesting! As a starter, I should say that I completely agree with the point you made: Most people ARE reactive to the fact of starting fresh in a full loot game in which a solid veteran player base is already established. In fact, I think if SV decides to skip EA and go right into full release, it would be precisely for this reason. But with that being said, let's think this through. The problem is real and the risk of losing players due to it is material, BUT, this isn't really an avoidable problem, right? Let's assume for a second that they decide to skip EA, making a single full release. For the launch, it works, crises averted: Everybody starts at the same moment and there is nobody reticent of arriving late to the party. Now, with this scenario in mind, what happens one year from the launch date? The fear of joining a game in which progression would be virtually impossible due to ganking veterans is not likely to have gone anywhere, and the situation is now dramatically worst. If a couple of months between EA and Release are enough to create a substantial gap between veterans and noobs, imagine what a year from the release can do. And if that is the case, then SV NEEDS to have a solution in place, because as critical as the launch date is for any game, in a subscription-based MMO, it does not surpass the importance of continually attracting new players. I think the solution SV has in mind is already in the game: Haven, but it must be dramatically improved to serve as a tutorial AND as a way to give new players some confidence they can take the game on even if they join years after release. To further complicate the situation, devs must make sure that, whatever new player benefits you can get from Haven does not annoy the current player base, which will be always tempted to say that everybody should come out to the main game immediately and get things the hard way (which is very easy to say from a position of strength). My head hurts just to think of the amount of balancing getting to this sweet spot will take (maybe that's why SV has been so hellbent to develop and polish Haven.
To summarize, I can see the initial problem being averted with a single release date (and no EA), but since they need a solution for it anyway, I'm confident this particular issue will the determinant factor in the decision. Anyway, I think we all will have to wait and see what they decide to do, and whatever it is, I do hope they are successful, because this game can still fail after a great release, but it will for sure fail without one.
 
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Crom

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I understand that you're saying "housing was already said to not make it before beta", but housing ABSOLUTELY needs to be beta tested prior to the game launching. The game doesn't have to launch with housing, but the system needs to be excruciatingly beta tested by players (not in house) prior to game launch. If there is a run at this game and 10,000 players sign up, and there are any issues with housing (bugs exploits), you will see a massive loss of player retention. Housing is the only thing in game that can destroy the world, bc it's semi-permanent, if there are issues when it launches. It's also the one thing that would lead to an early wipe.

Personally, I believe that the development team has a choice to make. They can go the route of MO 1 and keep the game "hardcore for hardcore's sake", or as I like to call it "hard on hard on hard." Or if they want to make the minor changes that will assist new player retention. If they want to keep it hard on hard, they can just continue on the path and let the 500 players white-knight defend everyone who has a legitimate gripe about the game. I will outline below a few of the things that new players will have issues with and could be fixed very easily.

The main thing they need to do is decrease the time that it takes to accomplish anything. The world has been made far too large for how fast our characters move. Horses should be in every major town that can be tamed. Having to travel 30 minutes to tame a horse (in all cities except Meduli) is a bad system, and you will find that most new players who aren't hooked on the idea of it being "hard on hard" quit due to the time commitment to do the most basic things. This isn't saying that everything should be easy, before you jump in and defend it. It's just a matter of time commitment just to do things like get a horse. Additionally, there should be specific mounts who lose basically no stamina but have very little health. It is NOT exciting gameplay to have to trout on a horse, or even stand still, while their stamina increases slowly because the world has been made so massive.

I personally believe there should be a global chat. It's not something I would debate, but you have to understand that there is now a global help chat, and a global guild chat. Because these two things exist, it is absurd to say that global chat can no longer exist due to 'realism". You have thrown the realism portion of the game out of the window because global guild and global help exist. Global chat would not break the game whatsoever. What it does, is give un-guilded players a communication method without having to use Discord.

Cartography should be a PASSIVE ability and all characters should have a completely empty world map (at the very least, art with the major guarded towns.) This map should be able to add all of your own markers. Again, we have to understand that Mortal Online map exists, and 90% of the userbase will use it. The idea of 'no map is hard' does not effect most players, it only effects new players who don't know to look at a third party map. It's absurd. If we want cartography to be an active ability, that's also fine, but it needs to have the exact same functionality as mortal online map.The better system is everyone has a custom map and it doesn't require skills. Again, EVERYONE has a map, it's called Mortal Online Map, not giving everyone in game a map is just 'hard for the sake of hard". If the mortal online map did not exist, I would have a different opinion on this, and I like the overall theory of cartography being in game, but the existance of the third party map just makes it annoying having to alt tab, and give a bonus to anyone with a third party set up.

A marker should pop up on compass to show your last death location. Most people will waste hours looking for their last death. This is not a fun game mechanic. Just the fact that the game is full loot /loot drop and you have to run back for your loot is enough difficulty. This is called a quality of life change that does not make the game any easier. Less frustrating is not the same as making the game easier. Difficulty grows players, frustration sheds players.

In order to move the game population out of Fab/Meduli, the games basic resources (up to steel, for example), need to be spread more closely to all cities (both red & guarded). You have to understand that, as a crafter, it takes hours to farm enough materials from nothing to steel. Having to travel 30 minutes from GK to get Calx to make steel is not fun. You are already spending hours busting the rocks alone. Alot of the issue here has to do with the map changes, but there is also a very skewed material allowance to the west side of map. i'm not saying this is a finished system, just that it needs to be looked at.

Finally, I will make my last suspension of disbelief argument. If we can teleport to home priest, we should be able to teleport to any priest (at least those that we have unlocked). Again, we have to understand that teleportation already exists in game, through the teleport to home priest option. We can also ghost run to any priest in the game, it is just a massive amount of time spent to do these runs. When we arrive in those locations, we still have to build up our bank there: teleporting changes NOTHING other than SAVING THE PLAYERS TIME. The preference here would be the ability to teleport, with no inventory weight, via portals that mages could make in a city. This would also allow guilds to rally easily. I understand that this will never happen. I am just telling you that the suspension of disbelief is totally gone when teleport to home priest exists but I have to suicide + ghost run to get anywhere within any meaningful amount of time.

If we are saying that this is not MO 1, this is a new game, and MO 2 wants a substantially larger player bases, changes like this have to be made for player retention. Otherwise you will have the same player base from the first one, but paying for 4x accounts each, which might be the ultimate goal here anyway.
 

Crom

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Holy crap! Wow, dude! Thanks for this! There is so much great stuff here that, although I don’t agree with everything, I now feel obliged to comment on every point you made, simply because I think there are great conversation to be had on all of them!

The first point you made is amazing, and I hadn’t really think about that until now: What is tested on Beta does not necessarily have to make the way into Day 1, and housing is for sure one of the system that needs to be extensively tested before reaching the live server (as you mentioned, the potential, for better or worse, is colossal). With that in mind, and if we expand this issue further down the timeline, I think we start to see the inevitable necessity to have a way to player-test new systems before releasing them. Sure, right now, we can test things in Beta and decide to release than later on, but what about the dozens of things that will come later and for which development has not even started, things that haven’t still been though about. What I’m envisioning here is that, for the reasons you mentioned, this game will need a what WoW has in the form of its PTR (Public Test Realm): a test only server in which new patches are deployed first. I think I get a chance, I would like to ask Henrik about this in his next live.

On your second point, you state that the world and the current travel speed are not consistent with each other, resulting in a less than fun combination. Analyzing by what we currently have in game I would agree, but here is my take: I think the relationship between players and with the massive world will change dramatically as some of the core systems are in place. As a headline for what I think it will happen, I could say that “Travelling will be optional.” With Broker and Auction Houses (supported by wagons and better mounts), those who decide not to travel too much will have a very viable way to do say, and at the same time, create content for those who want to explore the world. And those people exist right now, and they will exist in much more substantial volume in the future, when the world will be better populated, carrying weight greatly enhanced and substantial profits from moving goods (and even people!) from one place to another can be achieved. Staying faithful to its primordial promise of choice and consequence, I think MO2 will leave braving such a massive world for a subset of players that really enjoy it.

I totally agree with your point of the Global Chat, no “buts” or “ifs” here. Without a global chat in game, players will look for a global chat somewhere else, achieving the same results but spending twice as much time and having to deal with additional headaches. I also agree that “realism” is a lame justification for everything that is game related. Starting by the fact that you can revive your character by talking to a priest, nothing else makes sense under the “realistic” perspective. Finally, at the end of the day, you can always disable the chat if you desire to do so.

I LOVE the point you made about the online map and how it affects the future cartography skill. I think you hit the nail in the head there: There is already a map in this game (the online one) and denying that is ridiculous. So, once and for all, I totally agree that everybody should stop discussing if this game should have a map or not, that boat sailed when the player-developed map went online. Now, the question that SV should be asking themselves is: How this our own official map. The one I see this, they have two options

1: Do nothing and leave it be. Scrap the plans for in-game cartography and accept the fact that the community will hold the maps

2: Put something in game that is at least as good as what we have online.

And if they go with option two (which I hope they take), I don’t see another way to do that but to go with what you said: making it a secondary skill (that everybody can get at no skill points cost). If they don’t do that, people will be ponder if the benefits generate by the in-game skill are worth the additional skill points given that there is already a functional option online. Honestly, in this context, the only thing worth 100 skill points is that if the cartography skill actually include some sort of GPS (a.k.a showing where in the map you currently are), and, in my opinion, I don’t SV open to that idea, and thus, I think they are forced to where you pointed: a secondary skill that works very similar to the online map.

Your point about making it easier to find your dropped loot after death is something, I’m sure SV is thinking about right now. I was surprised that this was one of the very things they addressed when players starter to pour in the server during the stress test: They made your loot bag red to increase visibility. I honestly don’t think this is the last addition they will make there, although I don’t dare speculate what they may implement in the future. One idea that crossed my mind was to make your loot shine a beacon of light, just like the red beacon from priests. This way, if you want, you could run back to a priest while dead having a persistent reference of the location where you died, and thus making it way easier to find your back to retrieve your things.

As for your point regarding the resources’ location, I want to believe that the logic here will be very similar to what we discussed in the point of the size of the map and the speed of the travel. Gathering resources and moving them across the map will be a task designed to those that enjoy it. We must also keep in mind that, right now, there is barely enough profession points to specialize in both producing Tungstell AND making plate armors of Tungstell (just one example). As such, I can totally see that gathering raw materials will not be essential if that’s not something you enjoy.

Finally, I understand the frustration with the lack of teleports, specially when there two already in the game (from home and to the next priest). Honestly, I think this will hold for some time, but I’m not sure these will never happen. The official material of the game already states that there will be “dangerous” way to magically travel to another locations, and I think this kind of thing will continue to expand as the world gets even bigger. When we have 4 other continents in game, I basically don’t see SV insisting in hinder all forms of fast travel, simply because they will want people to move from one place to the other in less time than it would take to make it by horse (on the same note, I think it is a given they will make their best to do not allow the player movement impact the movement of goods in any substantial way).

Phew! That is it! Again, man, thanks so much for putting the time and effort to share these ideas with us! Great stuff! All the best!
 

Crom

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MO1 for a keep not a house
Got it, Thanks! If this is what we will see on MO1, then I totally agree, Housing/TC will be not an End Game feature at all. 5K G for a guild will be something I'm confident the biggest guilds will achieve relatively fast. I can't however, escape the impression that this number is not in the ballpark of what Henrik was mentioning. He never gave any numerical precision, but he was referring to a huge amount of resources, some of which could not be obtained easily and would take substantial effort even players on the right side of the progression curve. I guess we will have to wait and see if new information comes through. For now, I think the safe bet is to assume they will keep the plan of not including it on release/EA.
 

Crom

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basic housing, 2nd magic school, polished criminal system at the least need to be in at EA launch. Not to mention fixing various bugs.
Just to clarify, because I think you touched a point we haven't yet discussed: Are you referring to Broker Houses (where players can provide tasks, and the correspondent compensation, to other players), Auction Houses (where all sorts of resources and gears will be auctioned and acquired by the highest bidder) or both? I think both of them have a substantial effect on the trading of good and in-the-game experience, but on the list, we only currently have the Broker House, as they are the MO2 way of providing quests to the PVE audience. Do you think the Auction Houses would also be fundamental to day 1?
 

Jhackman

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Glad to see someone new to mo(i think u you are?) excited to see it become a great game.
 

kiwiitis

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Not sure if this is appropiate here but here goes.

In Darkfall ROA I could drop loot bag hopefully in a hidden spot,collect later.Especially usefull for a solo gatherer extraordinaire :).

Is this likely to be doable in MO2 ?

Regards Gramps
 

KermyWormy

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Just to clarify, because I think you touched a point we haven't yet discussed: Are you referring to Broker Houses (where players can provide tasks, and the correspondent compensation, to other players), Auction Houses (where all sorts of resources and gears will be auctioned and acquired by the highest bidder) or both? I think both of them have a substantial effect on the trading of good and in-the-game experience, but on the list, we only currently have the Broker House, as they are the MO2 way of providing quests to the PVE audience. Do you think the Auction Houses would also be fundamental to day 1?
In MO the auction house in each town and later as a TC structure in player made villages serves both purposes, to buy gear/materials and posting buy orders, both of which I would expect to be implemented simultaneously since they had support for both already previously, and hopefully soon.
 

Rankor

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Not sure if this is appropiate here but here goes.

In Darkfall ROA I could drop loot bag hopefully in a hidden spot,collect later.Especially usefull for a solo gatherer extraordinaire :).

Is this likely to be doable in MO2 ?

Regards Gramps
Yes, but after a set amount of time the bag dissapears never to be seen again.
 

Xunila

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Yesterday we had a discussion in the guild and many players would like to get the persistent state as soon as possible. Reasons are "there is nothing to do yet" and "why should I log in?". During stress test all players tried different builds of their character, and some already bought a second account and know how to build both characters.

Most players (from our guild) don't care about houses or keeps in the game at the day of persistent state. There is no problem to get those features after some month. Current interest is in a stable skill system and banking and inventory system without major issues (means, a potential bug in such a system would not end in a wipe). Also some very important stuff is missing like bags, horse bags and the auction house together with the veredari (mail items to other players). With some more horse types, more spawns of some new animals and another dungeon the persistent state could come.

We are all waiting for the new roadmap!
 

StreamerLord

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Server lines at least that is what players are calling them. Reminds me of the node lines in the old game. They cause lost pets lag and bugged animations pvp by one is really bad.
 
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finegamingconnoisseur

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I forgot to mention that I would like to see a much more live cities/villages, with NPC interactive citizens walk around , visitable houses, no closed doors, etc.
To add to this good suggestion, a more lively nature inhabited by all manner of creatures of different sizes and types. Small rodents scurrying through town streets, stray dogs (though I doubt we'll see cats), birds flying around, insects which can be caught and used for natural light or alchemy, and the like.

We have such a well put together world which is beautiful beyond belief. The only problem is that right now it just feels too... still... and inanimate.
 
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Grasthard

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I would have a nice player housing system before TC. I know guilds will be penalized more than solo players this way, but a house can serve as a guild "keep" temporarily until the real ones are in game.

kinda like it was in MO1. even though is not the optimal solution, is much better than having a bad TC system in imo.
 

Taurus

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Everything Weathermore brought up is absolutely great, and the notion several has brought up that persistence is a kind of Early Access and launch whether the developers want to view it as one or not. Don't rush into it, your trusted core of players (from MO1 and new) will be around and wait patiently anyway, and newcomers as myself can still enjoy thinking about which way we want to focus our characters by trial and error in the closed beta.

With that said, I'd add that some clearly visible end-game (in different play-styles) is very important even from the start (persistence). Even though player-built housing may be tested and added later on, I'd recommend adding empty houses that one could buy or rent. In this way you can start testing the indoor mechanics of player-built houses early, like furniture/decoration placement and carpentering skill(?)
 

Wesley Snipes

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Just to clarify, because I think you touched a point we haven't yet discussed: Are you referring to Broker Houses (where players can provide tasks, and the correspondent compensation, to other players), Auction Houses (where all sorts of resources and gears will be auctioned and acquired by the highest bidder) or both? I think both of them have a substantial effect on the trading of good and in-the-game experience, but on the list, we only currently have the Broker House, as they are the MO2 way of providing quests to the PVE audience. Do you think the Auction Houses would also be fundamental to day 1?

AH would definitely be up there on the list of things to have day 1.
 

Taurus

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Playing around more, I'm sure we should all calm down. Persistence is far off still, and would be detrimental to the game in the long run if it came anywhere close to the current state.
 

Crom

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Not sure if this is appropiate here but here goes.

In Darkfall ROA I could drop loot bag hopefully in a hidden spot,collect later.Especially usefull for a solo gatherer extraordinaire :).

Is this likely to be doable in MO2 ?

Regards Gramps
Totally makes sense for the game. I think you just described the famous "loothole". I don't think there is any word about actually having it, unfortunately
 

Crom

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Yes, but after a set amount of time the bag dissapears never to be seen again.
Totally makes sense, and it actually raises a good challenge. There is a mountain of evidence pointing in the direction of Persistent still being many months away, and there is also the intention of only adding content that needs to be tested and reserving as much as possible to persistent. With both of these ideas combined, what you just described within your will become increasingly more common: Beta players get demotivated by the lack of content, so they quit, which makes testing longers, which hinders further content, which demotivates more players... and we have a vicious cycle. Unless SV makes some miracle and shorts this Beta to weeks instead of months (highly improbable), I think they will need to keep adding some sort of content just to mitigate a massive player evasion. Thoughts?