Stamina is now absolute trash with new patch

[Tzone]

Get that light armor, it's like do you wanna take 40s and be able to run around or do you wanna take 20-25s and be flat footed. It's not ideal, but it's interesting for balance I think. It just sucks that it also works so well for magi ofr hybrid. If there were more athletic based action skills like climbing on top of jumping, etc, then you could really have light armor fighters, cuz that's a legit thing, dudes in the trees and stuff haha.

If you think about it, it should be easier to swing your wep and everything if you have on less armor. That would be 'skill based.'

It doesnt work out like that in practice. Even with light armor the stam situation is a issue and you are telling people if they want to play the game then they cant wear actual armor.

You have about enough stam to kill one and a half players if they don't block and you land all hits perfectly. When they start blocking then the amount of damage you could put out starts being limited by your stamina bar depleting. The stamina changes have increased the TTK of the game which is also bad for 1vX as you cant kill a player quick enough before having to worry about their friends.

You need to spend stamina in order to kill a player and even in duels both players stam out. In duels you need to do feints and morphs to get around parries which will cost you stamina. The game has gotten a lot slower and more drawn out which is at the determent of skilled players who are being held back unable to punish mistakes of the worse players.

Here is Cerqo 1v20 a group of extremely poor players. Its more just him as a ogh with almost 400 stamina trying to kill someone before he runs out of stamina. His skill is being limited by the stamina issues of this game.

They are removing the ability to self sustain in combat. First it was with health, now with stamina. Self sustain is the biggest factor is a skilled player winning 1vX. If you had the ability to self sustain in combat then a good player could survived against multiple bad players. If you could self sustain your stamina then a good player could kill multiple worse players which means zergs are less effective.

 

[AssassinOTL]

I'm here to say that this hypocritical argument of "if you run out of resources you cant play the game" was made for Mage Mana and Concentration. so i think Stamina is fine and is till OP regeneration compared to mana regen

you have about enough mana to kill about 1 person as a mage and you cant fight or support until you get it back so stamina is in a good place, it's balanced, it's just fighters that got used to Combat Alpha where you were unlimited in Stam and could kill endlessly without stam management.

and plenty of mages skill are being restricted by concentration and mana restrictions and cost, so i dont see an issue here, because when i make my case about it, these same people say, "get gud" or "you're not playing correctly" how about we make mage 1vX? fighters 1vX just fine already if they have adapted appropriately

 

[For Sure]

So, multiple threads have been made over the past few months complaining that it felt like we did not have enough stamina, or that we stam'd out too quickly in this game. Some people say TTL is too long- well yeah, because everyone is waiting on stamina to regen before they can finish off any player. Now, I'm not sure what changes were made this patch, but it is significantly worse. Just forget about playing melee if you had a fancy fighting style that involved skillful footwork and such, because you can barely get any stamina just standing still and parrying.

So, consistent complaints that stamina usage felt like trash, that stam regen penalties needed to be adjusted, how bad the game felt with how quickly stamina runs out- and StarVault's design change is to make it significantly worse? I spent several hours dueling/fighting today and it feels just awful. With over 1500 hours under my belt, I've never felt less motivated to play than when I discovered how easily I stam out now. All the time. Why run, why move, why even swing my weapon. Veela is going to be king again because of their stam regen clades combined with their speed, everyone will stam out trying to run and swing on a veela.

Was anyone even saying 'gee starvault I never stam out, can you adjust this?' Because I never saw that. All I saw was the opposite, consistently the opposite feedback that we need more stamina or it needs to regen much more quickly. And now it's garbage. It is not fun gameplay to die because you're out of stamina and can't parry. It's not fun gameplay to be unable to escape because you're out of stamina. Low stamina does not make for a higher skillcap. Who the hell thinks watching a yellow bar is fun gameplay? Oh boy, here I go carefully managing my stamina again. It's so hard to watch a yellow bar, it takes great skill to DO NOTHING SO THAT I CAN GET STAMINA.

This is horrible.

The fact you can stam out in a 1v2 from parries alone. Means you'll always die the 1vx is dead.

 

[LordMega]

The fact you can stam out in a 1v2 from parries alone. Means you'll always die the 1vx is dead.

Yep. I did a 1v2 this week, both of the other players are guys I flawless in a 1v1. I could just barely win a 1v2 against them several times, and after a few goes they improved enough to barely beat me. How, you ask? How did I possibly lose to 2 guys I flawless? Well, I was out of stamina and had a very, very hard time regaining it. Every time.

I'm here to say that this hypocritical argument of "if you run out of resources you cant play the game" was made for Mage Mana and Concentration. so i think Stamina is fine and is till OP regeneration compared to mana regen

you have about enough mana to kill about 1 person as a mage and you cant fight or support until you get it back so stamina is in a good place, it's balanced, it's just fighters that got used to Combat Alpha where you were unlimited in Stam and could kill endlessly without stam management.

and plenty of mages skill are being restricted by concentration and mana restrictions and cost, so i dont see an issue here, because when i make my case about it, these same people say, "get gud" or "you're not playing correctly" how about we make mage 1vX? fighters 1vX just fine already if they have adapted appropriately

For the record, I think the changes for mana regen were harsh and unneeded as well. Whatever monkeys starvault has on the balance team need to just go, because they've only made the game worse and made changes literally nobody asked for or wanted.

 

[AssassinOTL]

Yep. I did a 1v2 this week, both of the other players are guys I flawless in a 1v1. I could just barely win a 1v2 against them several times, and after a few goes they improved enough to barely beat me. How, you ask? How did I possibly lose to 2 guys I flawless? Well, I was out of stamina and had a very, very hard time regaining it. Every time.



For the record, I think the changes for mana regen were harsh and unneeded as well. Whatever monkeys starvault has on the balance team need to just go, because they've only made the game worse and made changes literally nobody asked for or wanted.

I appreciate the honesty

 

[LordMega]

So, we did a little testing and once your stam drops below 50%, you regenerate significantly less stam while blocking. Very punishing mechanic, it's noticeable.

Every person I've asked agrees that stamina needs a better baseline. Whether that means everything takes less stam, or the baseline regen is higher, whatever it takes- but everyone agrees on this. I haven't seen a single veteran melee fighter dissent from this opinion. People like me who have 1000+ hours or so in this game, who are top tier fighters, all agree here that stamina needs to be more. The recent changes on mechanics - many of which appear to be undocumented, "forgotten" balance changes that never made it into patch notes- have all trended towards a single purpose: making the zerg stronger. Making individual skill matter less, and zerg targetting more effective. It's pretty difficult to 1v2 now, 1vX is dead and it's sad. Two people who have two hours in the game might be able to take down 1 good, decently geared player who has two thousand hours in the game.

Quite frankly, if combat is not improved to allow individual skill to matter much more, I don't see myself playing this game long term.

Let that sink in. I have averaged 50 hours in this game every week for well over a year now. And I will walk away because combat has progressively gotten less fun. If all that is going to matter is numbers, why bother practicing? Why am I going to spend time training and dueling and perfecting mechanics when I can just join a giant zerg guild and auto-win? Why on earth would I pay $30 a month for my two accounts to play a zerg game when there are many that are much more rewarding for a skilled' player and allow for a higher skill ceiling?

Top tier pvpers consistently providing feedback that stamina sucks and consistently being ignored is one thing, but to completely go the opposite way is just a slap in the face. Why would you not listen to people who are effectively play-testing this game full time? Why would you not listen to players who have made a name for themselves with their skill and reputation? Why would you ignore people who are passionate about having rewarding, compelling, fun game mechanics? 1650 hours in so far, and I will happily play this game for years to come, if the combat is balanced to be fun and rewarding. I simply can not immerse myself in a game where my individual skill matters way less than numbers and gear.

I believe in this game's potential, and I believe in the vision behind MO2. I wouldn't waste my time if I didn't think that I could make a positive impact on this game's development. So here's my feedback. I hope it's heard.

Thanks for reading. See you guys in game.

 

[Emdash]

It doesnt work out like that in practice. Even with light armor the stam situation is a issue and you are telling people if they want to play the game then they cant wear actual armor.

ehh, what is actual armor? I feel you, somewhat, but you know I play diff than you guys. I admit I am not executing what I'm trying to do often (and I take parries to try to get people on the counter), but I do a lot of 'needless running' and I don't think it's THAT BAD. I do think light armor should make it easier to swing your wep tho. Speed/stam is the ultimate, you know? But if you're going in on siege, you'd probably want strong doods in heavy armor cuz you just keep pushing and they can't really move you back, but in terms of roaming the world, might as well do light armor. Cheaper, too. If you're an alv resting pulse turns out actually pretty amazing, you just have to know when to sit there for a sec. Every 3-4 sec of stillness adds up. I don't think it's right, but I do think it's probably more right than it was before.

I still believe wholeheartedly that major dmg mitigation parry system is the biggest flaw in all of this. I'd be cool with people getting a larger stam pool overall, but I like the regen ideas. It just means you have to really be methodical. But yea, I don't plan on gimping my jump/stam by wearing heavy armor lol. So maybe you're right. If anything, maybe there isn't enough prot difference between them. Does kind of help you understand why most people are on hybrids atm.

 

[Agog Vilechopper]

Totally agree, stamina drain when you get hit is a way to much.... 1vX become harder and zerg have a big advantage !
And plz do something about stamina drain when you jump, for me its migth be more interesting to link it to dexterity. Its seem normal for an high dext char to be able to jump more than other.

 

[Tzone]

So, we did a little testing and once your stam drops below 50%, you regenerate significantly less stam while blocking. Very punishing mechanic, it's noticeable.

The 50% stam drain was a thing from mo1 to stop people from running away from combat all the time and why when you combat kite you want to keep stamina at above 50% so you dont get that penalty.

This mechanic would not be a issue for combat if stamina regen wasnt penalized based on armor weight, you didnt lose stamina while being hit, and there was another mechanic for stamina sustain.

The TTK being over half a stam bar is a very big issue. Some one has suggested to give stam back on successful hits to lessen this issue. This might help for 1vX balance.


The path of this game has with in the past several months been concerning. So far outside of counter reduction and recent 1handed changes their changes have had a negative affect on the game and its PvP mechanics.

They really need to step back and talk with top players to fix this issue because combat has been getting more and more shallow which causes dedicated PvPers to get bored and not want to play anymore.

I just wish they would listen, get a internal test team of players because self admittedly Henrik isnt a PvPer and hes doing changes with little insight into PvP based mainly off of his spread sheet of data. We need people who know what they are doing to balance out PvP and make the PvP have more depth so it lives for a long time.

 

[Emdash]

The 50% stam drain was a thing from mo1 to stop people from running away from combat all the time and why when you combat kite you want to keep stamina at above 50% so you dont get that penalty.

This mechanic would not be a issue for combat if stamina regen wasnt penalized based on armor weight, you didnt lose stamina while being hit, and there was another mechanic for stamina sustain.

The TTK being over half a stam bar is a very big issue. Some one has suggested to give stam back on successful hits to lessen this issue. This might help for 1vX balance.


The path of this game has with in the past several months been concerning. So far outside of counter reduction and recent 1handed changes their changes have had a negative affect on the game and its PvP mechanics.

They really need to step back and talk with top players to fix this issue because combat has been getting more and more shallow which causes dedicated PvPers to get bored and not want to play anymore.

I just wish they would listen, get a internal test team of players because self admittedly Henrik isnt a PvPer and hes doing changes with little insight into PvP based mainly off of his spread sheet of data. We need people who know what they are doing to balance out PvP and make the PvP have more depth so it lives for a long time.

seems like they are trying to make the game harder, but in really weird ways. Like the stam after hit thing. I dunno if I like that, but I also dunno if I like stam regain on hit suggestion. I'm cool w/ whatever change you guys want as long as light armor stays way more mobile. If you've got what you want in mind, then just put light armor on top of that at a similar rate as it is now.

I just think the whole face up, parry, repeat thing is pretty wack. Y'know another change I really like is how the handles work and low dmg 'clean' hits if you take them at the right angle. It adds a lot of depth. There is a lot of deep stuff there, but it's just being hidden by BS imo.

 

[LordMega]

The 50% stam drain was a thing from mo1 to stop people from running away from combat all the time and why when you combat kite you want to keep stamina at above 50% so you dont get that penalty.

This mechanic would not be a issue for combat if stamina regen wasnt penalized based on armor weight, you didnt lose stamina while being hit, and there was another mechanic for stamina sustain.

The TTK being over half a stam bar is a very big issue. Some one has suggested to give stam back on successful hits to lessen this issue. This might help for 1vX balance.


The path of this game has with in the past several months been concerning. So far outside of counter reduction and recent 1handed changes their changes have had a negative affect on the game and its PvP mechanics.

They really need to step back and talk with top players to fix this issue because combat has been getting more and more shallow which causes dedicated PvPers to get bored and not want to play anymore.

I just wish they would listen, get a internal test team of players because self admittedly Henrik isnt a PvPer and hes doing changes with little insight into PvP based mainly off of his spread sheet of data. We need people who know what they are doing to balance out PvP and make the PvP have more depth so it lives for a long time.

Another mechanic regarding stamina regen to note is that once you drop below 60% HP your stam regen is reduced. Just one more thing that makes it difficult if you're fighting outnumbered or disadvantaged. I would not mind these mechanics so much if the baseline stamina OR stam regen was improved by say, 25-30% or so.

Because no 'guard break' mechanic really exists, we're forced to use stamina creatively to land some hits. This often means that you need to blow stamina on some good footwork to get around their guard and hit them with an attack they won't see in time. Another combat style you can use to land hits is feinting, but using any kind of mechanic for parry return feints or morphing is also a stamina-draining endeavor.

I saw in another thread there was a suggestion to regain stamina back on successful hits, and I am all for that, but I don't think that mechanic alone would solve the issue. It would certainly help, though.

Last night I was dueling, like I do everyday, and I dueled a few different people. One guy I flawlessed, but it took a while to kill him. He was a newer player, but had a "mediocre" parrying ability. So despite being new, it took me a while to land some hits. By the time I got around his defenses to land my combo, I got in 2-3 solid hits and was out of stamina, so that ended my little combo and back to standing around getting stamina while parrying. So people I can flawless still take a few minutes to kill, which is fine with me, but it obviously needs to be taken into account.

Another guy I dueled was a good bit better, someone who can make me sweat a little bit when we fight. We both have a more aggressive playstyle, so we wound up at around 75% HP each when we both stammed out for the first time and began the game of standing around waiting to have enough stamina to try and kill each other.

The point being, it's not fun right now. You guys who are focusing on armor are wayyy off the mark. It doesn't matter if I'm in full steel or in Light Armor. 6% or 8% or even 15% more stamina regeneration isn't going to cut it. That's not the issue. These issues 100% still exist with a little bit more stamina. At no point lately have I thought, "jeez if I just had 10% more stamina this would be fine." Because it's that big of a difference. My suggestion is to increase baseline stamina regeneration by about 30%, and maybe add in a stamina gain on a successful hit, so you won't stam out when you finally get around a parry.

 

[Tzone]

Henrik just said that he is going to look into the possible bugs that are causing stamina issues and that they didnt change anything.

Its better but still would be but yeah the stamina needs to be better before it was before those changes. The stamina issue was already a issue for a while and before the stamina regen nerf back when they removed threshold.

You have to spend so much stamina like Mega has said to get past the parries and even if you land all your hits its more then half a stam bar to kill a player.

 

[LordMega]

Henrik just said that he is going to look into the possible bugs that are causing stamina issues and that they didnt change anything.

Well, there has to be something that did happen. This past patch it's been very noticeable- starting patch day of course, when I played just like I do every day. I know it's not just me, as my friends who have 2K+ hours in this game commented on it as well, and I asked a lot of people who are very active players, they agree something happened with stamina and it's noticeably worse lately. I'm not sure exactly what it is, we've been going over different mechanics with others and we've been trying to quantify what changes were made exactly. I'll be doing some more testing tonight with others so we can see if it's a bug that we can replicate, or what the issue is, but being as these mechanics we know of are hidden and don't have known tooltips regarding how it works, it might be hard to pinpoint what's going on.

 

[For Sure]

They always ninja patch things and never state anything. There's no way its accidental you lose stamina when hit, and "bug" lose minimum 15 stamina a swing regardless of weapon. As if parrying didnt already cost too much stam. I'm a mage player, and I feel bad for anybody who wants to touch melee.

It's so hot garbage in comparison to anything in the game. Mages and bows can't be parried. Mages aren't dps bottlenecked from stamina. Mounted have 2x the hp of a footy and 5x the stamina bar of one. Tamers, I don't even want to talk about how bad dsync is making it impossible to parry them without animations.

Let's talk about how henriks vision of the game is completely killing the balance of combat. He must choose one side to cater to, and he will probably choose the wrong side again just like mo1 lol. Imagine getting another chance and making the same exact mistakes at the first game lol. BTW, things in the bank are still disappearing and combat is atrocious. Yet, we added mount armor in the game.

 

[For Sure]

seems like they are trying to make the game harder, but in really weird ways. Like the stam after hit thing. I dunno if I like that, but I also dunno if I like stam regain on hit suggestion. I'm cool w/ whatever change you guys want as long as light armor stays way more mobile. If you've got what you want in mind, then just put light armor on top of that at a similar rate as it is now.

I just think the whole face up, parry, repeat thing is pretty wack. Y'know another change I really like is how the handles work and low dmg 'clean' hits if you take them at the right angle. It adds a lot of depth. There is a lot of deep stuff there, but it's just being hidden by BS imo.

The game is only harder in the skillful combat department. None of this matters to 90% of the game. Henrik just wants to make it impossible to win outnumbered it seems like. Everything always goes in favor of zerging nothing changes.

 

[Emdash]

Zerging has to happen, that's why half or more of this game is politics. I think it's bad to balance around anti-zerg, they should try to keep things equal but make it more skill based. In some ways... like I was thinking about what I was arguing w/ TZone about w/ real armor. For me... I'm good w/ a fight being fewer hits. I don't like long time to kill. I think adding in MORE DMG is a good way to fix the game. It might not fix zerging, but nerfing resources actually seems to favor the zerg. Anything that favors anything favors a zerg. If you are on the wrong side of the zerg, I salute you. Go down fighting. People are trash and they gang up on people. I really don't care about much tho. I'm tryin' to just play and have fun. But w/ more dmg you'd be able to focus people more quickly and if you could kite/focus/kite/focus you could actually do better vs a zerg. Plus if the zerg drops faster so does their morale. Just some 'other side of the coin' thoughts. I can't speak for what Henrik wants or is doing but in my humble opinion (typed out for trufax) this game has the tools to be a highly skill based game even vs zergs if they don't stay tight enough, and the way you can run thru people, but a well formation-'d army is gonna be hard to mess with. That's just how it is. That's why I take that as a random death roll. And if you're saying getting siege level stuff, that's why holding a keep is all politics. It's the MMO part of the game. I can have fun outside of that. That part makes it a little more real. If someone wants good fights, they will stay. I stay and let people beat my ass over and over if I find their fighting style interesting.

You can be a factor just by chillin in the game and pvping, and honestly if you're good enough someone will prol gear you. They might have minor 'friend requests' from time to time. It's a pretty optimal game for a pvp oriented player cuz you got all kinds of pve people wanting to gear you, but yea zergs gonna zerg.

think of it long-game.

 

[For Sure]

Zerging has to happen, that's why half or more of this game is politics. I think it's bad to balance around anti-zerg, they should try to keep things equal but make it more skill based. In some ways... like I was thinking about what I was arguing w/ TZone about w/ real armor. For me... I'm good w/ a fight being fewer hits. I don't like long time to kill. I think adding in MORE DMG is a good way to fix the game. It might not fix zerging, but nerfing resources actually seems to favor the zerg. Anything that favors anything favors a zerg. If you are on the wrong side of the zerg, I salute you. Go down fighting. People are trash and they gang up on people. I really don't care about much tho. I'm tryin' to just play and have fun. But w/ more dmg you'd be able to focus people more quickly and if you could kite/focus/kite/focus you could actually do better vs a zerg. Plus if the zerg drops faster so does their morale. Just some 'other side of the coin' thoughts. I can't speak for what Henrik wants or is doing but in my humble opinion (typed out for trufax) this game has the tools to be a highly skill based game even vs zergs if they don't stay tight enough, and the way you can run thru people, but a well formation-'d army is gonna be hard to mess with. That's just how it is. That's why I take that as a random death roll. And if you're saying getting siege level stuff, that's why holding a keep is all politics. It's the MMO part of the game. I can have fun outside of that. That part makes it a little more real. If someone wants good fights, they will stay. I stay and let people beat my ass over and over if I find their fighting style interesting.

You can be a factor just by chillin in the game and pvping, and honestly if you're good enough someone will prol gear you. They might have minor 'friend requests' from time to time. It's a pretty optimal game for a pvp oriented player cuz you got all kinds of pve people wanting to gear you, but yea zergs gonna zerg.

think of it long-game.

Stamina drain doesn't fix ttk by any means. Everything will always be easier when zerging ur right. Doesn't mean you should balance a game around dumb and bad players. It's as simple as that.

 

[Emdash]

Stamina drain doesn't fix ttk by any means. Everything will always be easier when zerging ur right. Doesn't mean you should balance a game around dumb and bad players. It's as simple as that.

I just meant that I liked how stam drain got u ded when you got low because of regen penalties. Just like dude said about stopping to parry people when his mages couldn't heal him, that's more TTK stuff. It might be 'skill based', but I mean it needs to be balanced. Nothing wrong with all of the things in the game as they are now but the balance is horribly off.

I'm legit trying to think of how to fix it tho. Even if everyone thinks I'm crazy and bad haha.

Edit: kinda like I feel they smoothed the gear gap out a little too much with all the changes. Tryin' to be anti-zerg, too, but the best players are gonna end up with the best gear and if they are in zergs then people gotta lay in wait and take it off them when they can until they are depleted.

 

[Tzone]

Stamina has been bad for a while. It was border line a issue before the stamina threshold was removed.

Its just been getting worse. Really just needs to be buffed outside of fixing the "bugs".

Why make zergs stronger? Your dedicated players who spend far more time in game arent going to keep dealing with this.