Patch 0.0.0.18 - Community Testing Feedback & Suggestions

[bbihah]

Great feedback in here thanks a lot.

Hey Seb, since you are here.

Will we ever get like regular ex. Weekly reports from you guys about upcoming things and plans?

As of right now, all we know is the roadmap and that's it, but we have no idea how you guys envision things to change and other features. It would be really cool if you guys could have something along the line of like a Weekly report, no matter how short about a feature or something and how you envision it. Not necessarily too technical. There could be some short ones, some longer ones. It all depends how much you guys want to delve into talking about it, you could reference other games or whatever. It would be really nice and would bring up more discussion and give you Pre-implementation theory and feedback.

Ex. to stay on the topic of blocking(being whats hot right now) How you envision blocking to fit into the MO combat and how you guys want combat to look and feel when its closer to complete(example, no need to answer).

Other topics could be things like Taming, Crafting, Refining, Ecumenical, Mounted combat, Breeding, storage, inventory management, travelling, reputation(new flag system "replacement"), heck even how you might be thinking or are planning on adding X graphical feature or Y mechanic to the prediction system or lighting system. There are so many topics you guys could touch on to get the community a better look into your plans and build up a sustained hype for the game. As it is now, there isn't really any meat to even grab the occasional passerby.

 

[Kavu]

I strongly disagree to slowing down weapon speed even further. Right now people parry even my parry attacks.
If you slow down it even further the only way to get a hit through is by doing some abusing of the animation.

Right now hardly anyone uses in duels those swords with > 2kg. Slowing it further down will limit the valid weapons further, and everyone with use the lighter ones.
Also you need to keep in mind that in the finished game there will be craftable weapons, with different speeds. You really want to hear "go grab a flakestone sword, the steel sword is too slow to do duels"?

Please watch Dracu swing through my block with a heavy ass zweihander a few times until you understand the suffering.

I do agree with you that the heavier weapons need more of a place in game, but if not slowing down the swings to create a fixed reactionary period, then what? Its a hard question to answer because the obvious solution is off the table, and there are many factors at play, some of which, when removed, greatly diminish other problems.

 

[bbihah]

There both needs to be time to block, even for when its high ping vs high ping but on top of that there needs to be more mechanics in play other than Attack>Block>Counter.
Really interested to know if there is any plans in that department.

 

[Rhias]

Please watch Dracu swing through my block with a heavy ass zweihander a few times until you understand the suffering.

I do agree with you that the heavier weapons need more of a place in game, but if not slowing down the swings to create a fixed reactionary period, then what? Its a hard question to answer because the obvious solution is off the table, and there are many factors at play, some of which, when removed, greatly diminish other problems.

I've seen it and I agree that it's an issue.
But the issue does not go away by making swings slower.
If you block "close" before the hit is triggered it will go through, regardless how fast the swing was.
Yes, making it slower gives you more time to react, but it's more a shifting of the issue rather than a solution.

To my understanding the issue is that the block needs to reach the server, before the hit. And since it takes longer for high ping players, those ones have a shorter time to react and it looks on their screen like the attack goes through their block.
@Sebastian Persson Would it be possible to add some "increased parry window" depending on ping to server?
Example:
Hit is triggered on the server against player A. Player A has an average ping of 150ms. Server waits for additional 150ms after the hit was "triggered" on the server if a block comes in, that would have parried the attack on the blocker's screen?

 

[bbihah]

I've seen it and I agree that it's an issue.
But the issue does not go away by making swings slower.
If you block "close" before the hit is triggered it will go through, regardless how fast the swing was.
Yes, making it slower gives you more time to react, but it's more a shifting of the issue rather than a solution.

To my understanding the issue is that the block needs to reach the server, before the hit. And since it takes longer for high ping players, those ones have a shorter time to react and it looks on their screen like the attack goes through their block.
@Sebastian Persson Would it be possible to add some "increased parry window" depending on ping to server?
Example:
Hit is triggered on the server against player A. Player A has an average ping of 150ms. Server waits for additional 150ms after the hit was "triggered" on the server if a block comes in, that would have parried the attack on the blocker's screen?

So the defensive biased blocking that we used to have?

I mean, we've had it that way on 3? 4? occasions in Mo1. Not sure exactly why it was changed, if it works it works. I think main reason they moved past it was because it looks and feels weird for the people with low ping when fighting people with high ping, my best guess.

 

[Rhias]

So the defensive biased blocking that we used to have?

I mean, we've had it that way on 3? 4? occasions in Mo1. Not sure exactly why it was changed, if it works it works. I think main reason they moved past it was because it looks and feels weird for the people with low ping when fighting people with high ping, my best guess.

The low ping attacker does not instantly notice that enemy parried, cause the parry effect is only triggered after some delay...
Maybe there needs to be some kind of limit to make it no too extreme.
Right now it's alpha and the time to try out different things. I wouldn't like to see it getting changed back and forth when it's persistent.

 

[ThaBadMan]

Good luck explaining this to a new player.

Let's break this down, keeping in mind it's not even the worst instance of the issues on display here.

First and foremost, a nearly simultaneous hit-trade (sometimes they are actually simultaneous) that looks at first like a hit on both players. Suddenly, after being given feedback that you DID hit, you are then informed you did not, and not only that, but they have received a parry! Now they get a counter attack, which is even faster than the already accelerated swings being lobbed at you. Having fun?

Well it gets better. Anticipating the counter attack you prepare for the parry return. When the swing comes, put up a block in the incredibly narrow fraction of a second window and you've done it! You managed to read and react in split second timing to protect yourself. Except.. no you didn't. You still get hit. Why? Because you lacked the greatest skill one can master. Latency.

This is how its been ever since the delay was introduced.
This is how all my fights against lower ping players than myself. This is imo nothing new.
One fix could be as suggested before to reduce the delay. It is however a question if you want high ping or low ping to have the edge.
Before the delay high pinger hit low pingers from 10 feet and before their animations played fully, after the delay that effect was switched to low pingers not playing animation fully before the attack landed no matter if you had parry up on your screen in time.

But how is the ping difference between you and Draculina ? Cause I swear that is perfect example of me vs Waalan or Tyguy both having lower ping than me.
To parry their hits I need to have block there as their charge starts, or else it hits through.

 

[Amadman]

Not sure if it was suggested already, but why cant the charge circle go up and down?

Then someone would have to time it right to get the best damage. It seems like that would make it require more player skill.

Though they could still have a game skill that could slow it down if players put points in it.

 

[PatWins]

I strongly disagree to slowing down weapon speed even further. Right now people parry even my parry attacks.
If you slow down it even further the only way to get a hit through is by doing some abusing of the animation.

Right now hardly anyone uses in duels those swords with > 2kg. Slowing it further down will limit the valid weapons further, and everyone with use the lighter ones.
Also you need to keep in mind that in the finished game there will be craftable weapons, with different speeds. You really want to hear "go grab a flakestone sword, the steel sword is too slow to do duels"?

The suggested changes are not meant to all be permanent. I'm looking to test different changes out so we can better understand how to fix the current issues. It's hard to come up with solutions by testing the same thing.

 

[PatWins]

Great feedback in here thanks a lot.

Thanks for reading Seb!!!!

 

[Zbuciorn]

I would agree with you, if it weren't for the fact latency forces North American players (As well as others, like Australians, Asians, and those who just have below average net) to become perfect mind readers in order to parry anything a competent European throws at us. It doesn't feel like a skill at this point, there's nothing to learn, you do what you're supposed to in order to avoid taking damage, and you still get smacked for it.

Sick of putting up a block as the enemy is winding up, only to watch it come straight through my block because it had already swung true before even being wound up on my end.

As much as it pains me to say it, I think we need to reduce the importance of reaction time as a skill in the set. Replace it with something else. Something a little more thoughtful.

Reaction time should not be the most important skill.I like to smoke weed and cant enjoy fights when they too fast.

 

[PatWins]

Reaction time should not be the most important skill.I like to smoke weed and cant enjoy fights when they too fast.

haha I appreciate the perspective

 

[Kavu]

But how is the ping difference between you and Draculina ? Cause I swear that is perfect example of me vs Waalan or Tyguy both having lower ping than me.
To parry their hits I need to have block there as their charge starts, or else it hits though.

NY State Vs. Germany respectively.
Outside of the city, NY Ping is somehow worse than Texan ping, hilarious but unfortunate. I vary from 125-160 ping depending on the time of day.

TyGuy lives in the same city as the server, so yes he does that to me too, except worse. I don't have any footage of that though. The thing about blocking the charge as soon as it starts is that not only do you have to guess beforehand where theyre going to swing from, it doesnt even work THEN if its a counter attack on a sub 2kg weapon.

If they parry one of your attacks on a flamberge or a katana or an estoc/bastard? Well you cant run because you stand still in the spot you were a second ago on their screen and you cant parry because as far as the server is concerned your character will not block until they've had their way. Its a guaranteed high damage hit.

It sucks because the only counterplay to learn seems to be: "Try being British next time."

and I can't I just can't be British. I like tea, but that's excessive.

 

[Livingshade]

NY State Vs. Germany respectively.
Outside of the city, NY Ping is somehow worse than Texan ping, hilarious but unfortunate. I vary from 125-160 ping depending on the time of day.

TyGuy lives in the same city as the server, so yes he does that to me too, except worse. I don't have any footage of that though. The thing about blocking the charge as soon as it starts is that not only do you have to guess beforehand where theyre going to swing from, it doesnt even work THEN if its a counter attack on a sub 2kg weapon.

If they parry one of your attacks on a flamberge or a katana or an estoc/bastard? Well you cant run because you stand still in the spot you were a second ago on their screen and you cant parry because as far as the server is concerned your character will not block until they've had their way. Its a guaranteed high damage hit.

It sucks because the only counterplay to learn seems to be: "Try being British next time."

and I can't I just can't be British. I like tea, but that's excessive.

try being DUTCH its THE BEST

 

[WesleySnipes]

@Kavu I feel like we're beating a dead horse. Everyone knows the solution when it comes to latency. That video is as clear indicator of what the issue is as any possible video could be.

 

[ThaBadMan]

NY State Vs. Germany respectively.
Outside of the city, NY Ping is somehow worse than Texan ping, hilarious but unfortunate. I vary from 125-160 ping depending on the time of day.

TyGuy lives in the same city as the server, so yes he does that to me too, except worse. I don't have any footage of that though. The thing about blocking the charge as soon as it starts is that not only do you have to guess beforehand where theyre going to swing from, it doesnt even work THEN if its a counter attack on a sub 2kg weapon.

If they parry one of your attacks on a flamberge or a katana or an estoc/bastard? Well you cant run because you stand still in the spot you were a second ago on their screen and you cant parry because as far as the server is concerned your character will not block until they've had their way. Its a guaranteed high damage hit.

It sucks because the only counterplay to learn seems to be: "Try being British next time."

and I can't I just can't be British. I like tea, but that's excessive.

You cant parry play against them you simply got to dip in and out of range and trade hits. Parry and you lose big time.

 

[Kavu]

You cant parry play against them you simply got to dip in and out of range and trade hits. Parry and you lose big time.

Except you appear to them where you were a like full second ago. Which means you're still in range for them, even when you're 10 feet back. The strategy you suggested does work high ping vs other high ping though, as it makes it look like you never even came in range. I will have to experiment to see what the cut off is as far as who that works on and who just laughs at you.

There might be some way to play the latency, but ya shouldn't have to.

 

[TheTyGuy]

I also dont really like lowering speed of swings and charge as that is another place that lowers the skill ceiling immensely. Less time to react = harder = increases skill ceiling.

Rebalancing the swing release to be slower and the charge to be faster on weapons could fix the issue where players react to the charge and not the swing. When players react to the charge it creates this situation where the attacker is holding a swing waiting to use block abuse. However the charge should not be instant on really fast weapons and the swing should be really slow to the point that it makes the game boring. Maybe tweaking the feint and re blocking timer (0.25-0.5 secs) could increase the skill ceiling with this test. (Right now the swing release speed is so fast that its very difficult to react to the swing and forces players to pre block by parrying the charge, patching the blocking desync could help this but I guess we will have to wait)