Old Weapon Stats

Old Stats or New stats?


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    6
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Eldrath

Well-known member
Yes, crafting is here to stay. I think that is fair to say. Having complex crafting was one of the major features of Mo1 and is supposed to be the same in MO2. The misunderstanding is that every weapon crafted needs to be balanced against each other. This extends to other playstyles as well. I see nothing wrong with fighters having a pole type weapon to dismount and a sword/axe/mace for ground work. That in turn means that not every poleaxes need to be viable in a duel or even a regular melee.

Addionally being able to craft "shit-tier" weapons is good to differentiate between good, honest crafters and others. If every weapon was viable there is not way to scam, hoodwink or take advantage of. It´s one of those mechanics that makes a sandbox work.

The current problem seems to be with heads when it comes to spears. Their heads take up too much materials, which increases their weight. Since that weight does not translate into piercing damage they don´t scale well.

IMO they could scale up the durability loss when using sponge/white wood even more. I would like to have a leather type material for testing handles though. I´m assuming those and scales are gonna be awesome coat materials.
 
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Teknique

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Jun 15, 2020
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Slightly off topic but did weapons always lose 30 dura in a single duel or is that new?
 

Dracu

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Jul 13, 2020
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Yes, crafting is here to stay. I think that is fair to say. Having complex crafting was one of the major features of Mo1 and is supposed to be the same in MO2. The misunderstanding is that every weapon crafted needs to be balanced against each other. This extends to other playstyles as well. I see nothing wrong with fighters having a pole type weapon to dismount and a sword/axe/mace for ground work. That in turn means that not every poleaxes need to be viable in a duel or even a regular melee.

Addionally being able to craft "shit-tier" weapons is good to differentiate between good, honest crafters and others. If every weapon was viable there is not way to scam, hoodwink or take advantage of. It´s one of those mechanics that makes a sandbox work.

The current problem seems to be with heads when it comes to spears. Their heads take up too much materials, which increases their weight. Since that weight does not translate into piercing damage they don´t scale well.

IMO they could scale up the durability loss when using sponge/white wood even more. I would like to have a leather type material for testing handles though. I´m assuming those and scales are gonna be awesome coat materials.
Yeah you might be right about the spears, what exactly the issue is no idea. The whole calculation mentioned stuff sounds way more complicated then it might has to tbh, can only speculate.

Regarding balance, every weapon needs to be atleast viable for something imo.
Having choice over what to use depending on preffered playstyle and still be able to not automaticly fight at huge disadvantage for not choosing a specific meta weapon.

That was the state pre this patch. Weapons were choices and i loved it. No weapon did feel unviable.

Dismount weapons were a very bad design. Beat money with more money... instead of skill. Mount and blade handled mounted best imo. Every weapon could stop a horse. Maybe not dismount it but stop it with a good hit. But this didnt mean that mounteds were bad oh no they were still good and a viable choice. Ofc different game etc just copying wont be the right thing.


Shit tier combos yeah... exist, thats the downside pf this crafting system. Thats something that cant be fixxed even if wanted i guess.
 

Rhias

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May 28, 2020
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Did yesterday a few duels. Basically lost every fight using poleaxes, spears or maces. They feel to heavy now and I get parried 24/7. Most viable weapon for duels seems to be 1h & 2h swords.
 
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Waalan

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May 28, 2020
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Did yesterday a few duels. Basically lost every fight using poleaxes, spears or maces. They feel to heavy now and I get parried 24/7. Most viable weapon for duels seems to be 1h & 2h swords.
I would even say swords are op and in need of a small nerf. Or we will end up with swordfighter online.
 
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Eldrath

Well-known member
Yeah you might be right about the spears, what exactly the issue is no idea. The whole calculation mentioned stuff sounds way more complicated then it might has to tbh, can only speculate.
Since that info comes directly from Herius I don´t we need to speculate on it. You can look it up on Discord.

Regarding balance, every weapon needs to be atleast viable for something imo.
Having choice over what to use depending on preffered playstyle and still be able to not automaticly fight at huge disadvantage for not choosing a specific meta weapon.

That was the state pre this patch. Weapons were choices and i loved it. No weapon did feel unviable.

Shit tier combos yeah... exist, thats the downside pf this crafting system. Thats something that cant be fixxed even if wanted i guess.
No, not every weapon out of the thousands of combinations needs to be "viable". A bone tissue sword does not need to be viable in PvP, but it should be craftable. There will be meta weapon regardless of how simple you make the game. Even with the 20 something weapons we had before we had meta weapons. How many people used one handed axes and specifically the khurite one? Exactly. There will always be meta weapons, because people want to go for the easiest choice and that is fine.

Dismount weapons were a very bad design. Beat money with more money... instead of skill. Mount and blade handled mounted best imo. Every weapon could stop a horse. Maybe not dismount it but stop it with a good hit. But this didnt mean that mounteds were bad oh no they were still good and a viable choice. Ofc different game etc just copying wont be the right thing.
Yes, the threshold blunt damage system was shit. You cannot stop a horse with any weapon in Warband or Bannerlord though. Especially in Bannerlord you nearly always use a pole weapon. Or do a jump attack, which is high risk, high reward. Last one wouldn´t work in MO2 because it relies on one-hit kills to be effective. Anyway, it was just an example. Another would be that fighting in a building SHOULD be easier with a short weapon. Demanding that poleaxes are just as good in a tavern brawl as a short sword would be silly IMO.

I would even say swords are op and in need of a small nerf. Or we will end up with swordfighter online.
Dunno, I think swords feel good. I´d prefer for the other weapons to get fixed rather than nerfing what is working. Swords will always be the preferred weapon in a duel because they are easiest to use. So balancing along those lines (only duels) will get the same result unless you make them completely useless.


Did yesterday a few duels. Basically lost every fight using poleaxes, spears or maces. They feel to heavy now and I get parried 24/7. Most viable weapon for duels seems to be 1h & 2h swords.
Well, they are in fact heavy. If you make a flakestone poleaxe it will be pretty fast. As soon as you enter steel/tung it´s impossible to keep them under 2 kg. Which might be intended.

I think the starmace and flanged mace (both two handed variants) suffer from the same problem as the spear heads. Their mesh is huge, and thus become extremely heavy. The warhammer on the other hand works just fine, same as the sledgehammer.

Most axe head are a bit too heavy as well. So it´s a theme all across the board really.
 

Dracu

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2020
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Since that info comes directly from Herius I don´t we need to speculate on it. You can look it up on Discord.



No, not every weapon out of the thousands of combinations needs to be "viable". A bone tissue sword does not need to be viable in PvP, but it should be craftable. There will be meta weapon regardless of how simple you make the game. Even with the 20 something weapons we had before we had meta weapons. How many people used one handed axes and specifically the khurite one? Exactly. There will always be meta weapons, because people want to go for the easiest choice and that is fine.



Yes, the threshold blunt damage system was shit. You cannot stop a horse with any weapon in Warband or Bannerlord though. Especially in Bannerlord you nearly always use a pole weapon. Or do a jump attack, which is high risk, high reward. Last one wouldn´t work in MO2 because it relies on one-hit kills to be effective. Anyway, it was just an example. Another would be that fighting in a building SHOULD be easier with a short weapon. Demanding that poleaxes are just as good in a tavern brawl as a short sword would be silly IMO.



Dunno, I think swords feel good. I´d prefer for the other weapons to get fixed rather than nerfing what is working. Swords will always be the preferred weapon in a duel because they are easiest to use. So balancing along those lines (only duels) will get the same result unless you make them completely useless.




Well, they are in fact heavy. If you make a flakestone poleaxe it will be pretty fast. As soon as you enter steel/tung it´s impossible to keep them under 2 kg. Which might be intended.

I think the starmace and flanged mace (both two handed variants) suffer from the same problem as the spear heads. Their mesh is huge, and thus become extremely heavy. The warhammer on the other hand works just fine, same as the sledgehammer.

Most axe head are a bit too heavy as well. So it´s a theme all across the board really.
its not about making every material combination viable, its about making every weapon type viable. A spear, sword, mace, axe, poleaxe, polesword should all be similiar in viablity with similiar materials, ofc not the exact same materials, but in sum close to each other in worth and work to aquire... that would be balance.

A bone sword should be close to viability to a close to bone material spear for example... dont have to be the same material but close in work to get a somehwat sameish result.
I hope its understandable what i mean.

Just using current broken stats as example:
A steel sword getting bested by pure flakestone warhammer is a good example for not following this idea.
the super cheap material is far better in dmg and speed then the higher work material sword.
 
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Eldrath

Well-known member
its not about making every material combination viable, its about making every weapon type viable. A spear, sword, mace, axe, poleaxe, polesword should all be similiar in viablity with similiar materials, ofc not the exact same materials, but in sum close to each other in worth and work to aquire... that would be balance.

A bone sword should be close to viability to a close to bone material spear for example... dont have to be the same material but close in work to get a somehwat sameish result.
I hope its understandable what i mean.

Just using current broken stats as example:
A steel sword getting bested by pure flakestone warhammer is a good example for not following this idea.
the super cheap material is far better in dmg and speed then the higher work material sword.
Yeah I get what you are saying but that is not how the crafting system works. Cheap, heavy materials can be very useful in blunt weapons. Cheap sharp materials can be useful in spearheads. Sometimes they can even outperform their steel equivalent. This also means that a bone sword is not the equivalent of a bone maul even though they are made from the same material.

The crafting system is not designed to provide a linear scaling of power, it rewards experimentation and trade offs. Being able to use flakestone/maalite spears is part of that. They do have shit durability and that is part of balancing. Trying to force a linear scaling (like in Albion for example) onto the crafting system will not work.

For your example:
Warhammer and sledgehammer heads seem to be very good right now. Yet Rhias, Waalan and you have claimed that swords are too good. That does not make sense to me. The main advantage of a flake warhammer/sledge is the swing speed and stamina usage right now, because they relate to the weight only(and two handed usage). I think this needs to be adressed on a mechanical level - not in crafting. So don´t make flakestone somehow less dense, but increase the minimum swing speed of all weapons. That way any fast weapon gets slightly less effectiv. This ofc will also affect steel one handed swords and daggers, which probably don´t need a nerf.

Mostly this is about everyone being able (in theory anyway) to parry the riposte of any possible weapon. I´m fairly certain that in terms of DPS a flake warhammer is not actually better than a tungsteel/steel sword. That is because the "hard" charge is the same for every weapon, thus every charge by a heavy weapon deals more damage in the same time. Differences in swing speed are not big enough to outweight that.
 
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Dracu

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Jul 13, 2020
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Yeah I get what you are saying but that is not how the crafting system works. Cheap, heavy materials can be very useful in blunt weapons. Cheap sharp materials can be useful in spearheads. Sometimes they can even outperform their steel equivalent. This also means that a bone sword is not the equivalent of a bone maul even though they are made from the same material.

The crafting system is not designed to provide a linear scaling of power, it rewards experimentation and trade offs. Being able to use flakestone/maalite spears is part of that. They do have shit durability and that is part of balancing. Trying to force a linear scaling (like in Albion for example) onto the crafting system will not work.

For your example:
Warhammer and sledgehammer heads seem to be very good right now. Yet Rhias, Waalan and you have claimed that swords are too good. That does not make sense to me. The main advantage of a flake warhammer/sledge is the swing speed and stamina usage right now, because they relate to the weight only(and two handed usage). I think this needs to be adressed on a mechanical level - not in crafting. So don´t make flakestone somehow less dense, but increase the minimum swing speed of all weapons. That way any fast weapon gets slightly less effectiv. This ofc will also affect steel one handed swords and daggers, which probably don´t need a nerf.

Mostly this is about everyone being able (in theory anyway) to parry the riposte of any possible weapon. I´m fairly certain that in terms of DPS a flake warhammer is not actually better than a tungsteel/steel sword. That is because the "hard" charge is the same for every weapon, thus every charge by a heavy weapon deals more damage in the same time. Differences in swing speed are not big enough to outweight that.
I honestly just want the prepatch stats back on the weapons. They were pretty well balanced. Steel as a base and cheaper and more expensive materials to adjust the damage and weight and stuff upper and lower. A more linear system is something the game can profit from where mixing and matching can be used. Together with a speedcap on swing this will eesult in a much much more balanced experience. I know its not the current system and i do find this troublesome.

The game wouldnt loose its magic of crafting it would still utilise the current crafting system.
 
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PatWins

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I honestly just want the prepatch stats back on the weapons. They were pretty well balanced. Steel as a base and cheaper and more expensive materials to adjust the damage and weight and stuff upper and lower. A more linear system is something the game can profit from where mixing and matching can be used. Together with a speedcap on swing this will eesult in a much much more balanced experience. I know its not the current system and i do find this troublesome.

The game wouldnt loose its magic of crafting it would still utilise the current crafting system.
Perhaps we just lack the proper materials to create the pre patch weapons? Who knows?
 

Eldrath

Well-known member
nah the prepatch weapon were solid copys of mo1 steel weapons.
They were not, they had different models. It was new models that simulated the old stats from steel weapons out of the old crafting system.

This is why they were placeholders. They were never intended to stay that way, because the crafting system would make them obsolete.

Again, there is no way to return to the old values. You would have to use the exact same models from MO1, with the same calculations, same materials values and then adjust for mechanical differences. That is why you have to base your feedback on the current crafting system.

Perhaps we just lack the proper materials to create the pre patch weapons? Who knows?
No, the models have changed and the calculations have changed. To create the pre patch weapons you would have to changed everything back to Mo1 values.

You can however try to simulate the qualities of the prepatch weapons with the new system.

Just saying go back to the old system simply does not work and I would encourage everyone to learn the basics of crafting. This would make this feedback much more relevant.

I honestly just want the prepatch stats back on the weapons. They were pretty well balanced. Steel as a base and cheaper and more expensive materials to adjust the damage and weight and stuff upper and lower. A more linear system is something the game can profit from where mixing and matching can be used. Together with a speedcap on swing this will eesult in a much much more balanced experience. I know its not the current system and i do find this troublesome.

The game wouldnt loose its magic of crafting it would still utilise the current crafting system.
Agree to disagree then. Cause I think that would take away everything that is special about Mo1 crafting. Min/Maxing in a linear system is boring as hell. It does not incentivise sandbox gameplay. You would take away one of the things MO1 did right.

Anyway luckily for me the devs have already decided on keeping an interesting crafting system instead of sinking to the level of Albion or similar games.
 
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