Mounted Combat Balance

[Tacticaldonut]

I have asked this question several times during stream and gotten sidestep answers:

Why is Mounted Archery so powerful compared to Mounted Mages?

The reason i ask this question is due to the many negative traits Mounted Mages must work through to accomplish anything. We can't turn while prepping, we are very easily interrupted if hit. Keeping our mounts alive requires a lot of time to produce decent armor vs arrows and weakspot chance negates that. Mounted Archers just need a bow, and decent ones require easy materials. There is a base attribute that negates some spell damage, but nothing against phsyical damage other than small amounts of hp. Mounted Archers have way less time to full draw an arrow than it does to cast any spell other than spurt MAYBE, and we know you ain't winnin with spurt.

The answer i have gotten:

'The way magic works, you are fully concentrating on a spell, so you cannot steer as well.'

Rebuttal: Concentration is nerfed to 35% while mounted and is already a huge problem when not mounted. The only downside Mounted Archers have is getting staggered if they get hit, they don't lose their current draw on a shot, and can turn while aiming.

'You need 2 hands to cast a spell.'

Rebuttal: You definitely need 2 hands to use a bow....

'Archers do not have many of their special skills yet. Mages have lots of utility.'

Rebuttal: There are 3 spells that i think qualify as utility against Mounted Archers; Corrupt (it has a medium range and is easily cleansed by having the 20pts in ecu, a potion, or just shooting between ticks), Earthquake (need to be literally ontop of them), and Heals(very low ECU requirement of 10, almost anyone can get it, including the Mounted Archers) Mounted Archers can just stay out of our largest-spell-range and kill our horse, then us. Preventing us from doing anything at all.

Currently in open world, mounted combat, it feels like if you don't have a bow, you lose. It feels like my only options as a pure mage is to run, and try to outheal damage (usually doesn't work because i have to stay straight, giving them easy shots), or fight and hope they are extremely bad at aiming. Any halfway decent Mounted Archer can win a 1v2, 1v3 if they are against Mounted Mages or Footies.

I fully understand that everyone should have their strengths and weaknesses, but the negatives put on Mounted Mages seems extreme. As a pure mage, my argument is from this side, i'm sure Footies have some say in this as well, although i think a lot of them are able to use some points in bows as well due to stat distribution.


Possible Recommendations (some, not all):
Remove the ability for Mounted Archers to turn while aiming, making it consistent between MA/MM.

Revisit concentration as a whole. Why does it need to be nerfed on Mounts if that's ALSO the reason we can't turn?

Lower damage from bows while mounted by 15-20%, and/or revisit Weakspot chance for Mounted Archers to be lowered.

Increase range on some spells ex. outburst, corrupt.

Increase the ECU requirement on some spells ex. Purify, Heal.

These are listed from my opinion on what i think would be most helfpul down to least helpful, but i still think they are all options that could be looked at.

I'm open to being proven wrong, or having a nice discussion on this, but i will say, every mounted combat i have been in has been severely dominated by the Mounted Archers, both on my team and against me. It just feels like they are a bit OP when it comes to smaller Mounted combat scenarios.

 

[Teknique]

lmfao

 

[Jackdstripper]

With elementalism and pets being so broken right now, i really dont think anyone care about Mounted Mages not being able to win against MA.

MM are pretty much at the bottom of the “to balance” list.

 

[Tacticaldonut]

With elementalism and pets being so broken right now, i really dont think anyone care about Mounted Mages not being able to win against MA.

MM are pretty much at the bottom of the “to balance” list.

You can't cast elemental spells on mounts. Not all mages use pets. But i do see your points. It's closer to a balance for MA's honestly.

 

[Gladiator]

Despite not being able to win against a mounted archer, a mounted mage won't lose either, because, guess what, you put steel horse armor on your dandy, and you can light heal it for miles before a singular mounted archer can take it down.

Telling me that Mounted Mage needs buffing, what the actual fuck man...
Mage is the most overpowered class in the game right now. Mainly due to Pets and elementalism, but giving them better mounted magery too? why would anyone in the right mind do something like that.

They nerfed Mounted Archers a little while back, making it absolutely nauseating to use it without ALL the required points. You dont see that with magic. You dont have all the required points? you deal less damage. Just like Archery used to be, you know? So let's not fucking talk about the conveniency of being able to turn

 

[Tacticaldonut]

Despite not being able to win against a mounted archer, a mounted mage won't lose either, because, guess what, you put steel horse armor on your dandy, and you can light heal it for miles before a singular mounted archer can take it down.

Telling me that Mounted Mage needs buffing, what the actual fuck man...
Mage is the most overpowered class in the game right now. Mainly due to Pets and elementalism, but giving them better mounted magery too? why would anyone in the right mind do something like that.

They nerfed Mounted Archers a little while back, making it absolutely nauseating to use it without ALL the required points. You dont see that with magic. You dont have all the required points? you deal less damage. Just like Archery used to be, you know? So let's not fucking talk about the conveniency of being able to turn

Seems like you obviously picked out the bits of my post that you wanted to instead of reading through it completely. So, i will repeat, Elementalism cannot happen on a mount so i'm not sure why that's an issue. Everyone has to use mounts to get places, afterall, as Henrick says "speed is key" and if mounted combat is balanced around grounded spells, then i believe that is problem. I also mentioned how easy it is to get a bow compared to steel armor. Mounted archers can have pets too....matter fact, they can have pets and heal pretty easily. Pets does not directly relate to mages except for domination. Which is pretty equivelant to marksmaship for archers, but pure mages have nothing of the sort.

I'm here to talk about the convinience of turning because it a point in my post. It interrupts my prepping (which already takes longer), which requires me to drive straight (which makes me an easy target), and means there is no way for me to out skill anyone.

Matter fact, your starting argument is a mage already on the run. I also didn't say mages need buffs techincally. I gave several OPTIONS.

 

[Jackdstripper]

My personal experience as a MM (not fat mage) is this: if i have no horse armour and he does, i can usually 4 speed away ( unless he is right on top of me) and heal my horse especially if he misses a few shots. A high level desert can take quite a few shots while i create a gap in distance which makes it harder for the MA to hit me. The further i get, the easier it is to out heal his damage.

If we both have horse armour then i probably wont get away and eventually his damage will win over my heals. At this point i might as well just nuke the rider instead and try to scare him away. This has mixed results and more often than not i lose my horse at minimum.
However, most MA use horse armour because they cant afford to lose their horse so not wearing horse armour myself i usually get away.

Where its really hard to balance MA and MM is the fact that wheelchair builds can actually have both. So a true mounted build can have the best of both worlds. Those builds are insanely strong in the right terrain. Buffing MM will only buff those builds too. How do you go about balancing that?

 

[Tacticaldonut]

My personal experience as a MM (not fat mage) is this: if i have no horse armour and he does, i can usually 4 speed away ( unless he is right on top of me) and heal my horse especially if he misses a few shots. A high level desert can take quite a few shots while i create a gap in distance which makes it harder for the MA to hit me. The further i get, the easier it is to out heal his damage.

If we both have horse armour then i probably wont get away and eventually his damage will win over my heals. At this point i might as well just nuke the rider instead and try to scare him away. This has mixed results and more often than not i lose my horse at minimum.
However, most MA use horse armour because they cant afford to lose their horse so not wearing horse armour myself i usually get away.

Where its really hard to balance MA and MM is the fact that wheelchair builds can actually have both. So a true mounted build can have the best of both worlds. Those builds are insanely strong in the right terrain. Buffing MM will only buff those builds too. How do you go about balancing that?

I think making turning available wouldn't really buff anyone, just allow people to play with some skill, rather than being locked in.

I also think it has been mentioned, or has already been done. Making attribute bonuses more linear. Can't say i'm super familiar with this, but i know my 138 int doesn't seem to do much more than people at 100ish, which seems insane to me.

 

[buffalo]

I have asked this question several times during stream and gotten sidestep answers:

Why is Mounted Archery so powerful compared to Mounted Mages?

The reason i ask this question is due to the many negative traits Mounted Mages must work through to accomplish anything. We can't turn while prepping, we are very easily interrupted if hit. Keeping our mounts alive requires a lot of time to produce decent armor vs arrows and weakspot chance negates that. Mounted Archers just need a bow, and decent ones require easy materials. There is a base attribute that negates some spell damage, but nothing against phsyical damage other than small amounts of hp. Mounted Archers have way less time to full draw an arrow than it does to cast any spell other than spurt MAYBE, and we know you ain't winnin with spurt.

The answer i have gotten:

'The way magic works, you are fully concentrating on a spell, so you cannot steer as well.'

Rebuttal: Concentration is nerfed to 35% while mounted and is already a huge problem when not mounted. The only downside Mounted Archers have is getting staggered if they get hit, they don't lose their current draw on a shot, and can turn while aiming.

'You need 2 hands to cast a spell.'

Rebuttal: You definitely need 2 hands to use a bow....

'Archers do not have many of their special skills yet. Mages have lots of utility.'

Rebuttal: There are 3 spells that i think qualify as utility against Mounted Archers; Corrupt (it has a medium range and is easily cleansed by having the 20pts in ecu, a potion, or just shooting between ticks), Earthquake (need to be literally ontop of them), and Heals(very low ECU requirement of 10, almost anyone can get it, including the Mounted Archers) Mounted Archers can just stay out of our largest-spell-range and kill our horse, then us. Preventing us from doing anything at all.

Currently in open world, mounted combat, it feels like if you don't have a bow, you lose. It feels like my only options as a pure mage is to run, and try to outheal damage (usually doesn't work because i have to stay straight, giving them easy shots), or fight and hope they are extremely bad at aiming. Any halfway decent Mounted Archer can win a 1v2, 1v3 if they are against Mounted Mages or Footies.

I fully understand that everyone should have their strengths and weaknesses, but the negatives put on Mounted Mages seems extreme. As a pure mage, my argument is from this side, i'm sure Footies have some say in this as well, although i think a lot of them are able to use some points in bows as well due to stat distribution.


Possible Recommendations (some, not all):
Remove the ability for Mounted Archers to turn while aiming, making it consistent between MA/MM.

Revisit concentration as a whole. Why does it need to be nerfed on Mounts if that's ALSO the reason we can't turn?

Lower damage from bows while mounted by 15-20%, and/or revisit Weakspot chance for Mounted Archers to be lowered.

Increase range on some spells ex. outburst, corrupt.

Increase the ECU requirement on some spells ex. Purify, Heal.

These are listed from my opinion on what i think would be most helfpul down to least helpful, but i still think they are all options that could be looked at.

I'm open to being proven wrong, or having a nice discussion on this, but i will say, every mounted combat i have been in has been severely dominated by the Mounted Archers, both on my team and against me. It just feels like they are a bit OP when it comes to smaller Mounted combat scenarios.

If the all mounts that were competitive were bred and leveled horses (pipeline for stable leveling for some levels at gold cost) then mounted would be sort of a plug and go chance where MA/MC/MM had very serious different advantages. Rate of fire seems to matter when compared to time for casting. Most had back shields (without armor weight pen) when the original system was established (and was a fair bit more exciting). MM's were always subject to arrow damage but I think the horses were a fair bit more maneuverable because of speed disparity/maneuvering into quick circles and shifting gears to lose their aim and disparity in stam drain/stam regen and gear shift quickness which were all built onto the mount which was the breeding system. Breeding stats onto the mount was difficult because an attempt to bring certain stats over would hit a check counter that would nerf all stats to give one decent one, blood lines causing stillborns and every breeding attempt at vendor would be about 4 hours and 2.5 gold etc.
back then there wasn't anything like steel or tung armor for horses but the war horses more hp In general but at the end of the day MA for MM was very hard to deal with>

a very common build was mounted mage using dead lictor armor chest legs arms which had near steel slider but weighed 6 ish weight for the entire set and previously mounted could only hit head chest and legs for damage and that helped I would say a lion share amount. A Mounted Mage that could manuever in Lictor and use spells had a I would say not a hopeless chance.