Mage Spell Idea

[Piet]

If we're talking about balance, it's the same thing i do every day, Concentration is a similar system to what i'm asking for. and I don't think it's unfair to ask for that when the Devs said that 30% concentration is fine for mounted mages, i literally had a fight where i was locked down to where spells were impossible to cast outside of the utility ones to try and make a play after.

So it's kinda Hypocritical (not you specifically) to Say "how can you fight against that?" it would be the same suggestions I've received for months on this Forum... you just kite, you run and make opportunistic openings to get in the damage you need, and in Melee range you just hit them and interrupt their spells,

if it's good enough for the mage, i don't see why it's not good enough for Melee. The community according to the 2-3 guys in here stands on the no damage or faster casting for mages, ok well let them have utility... or are they just not allowed to have any arsenal to properly be competitive in a fight? I've thought long and hard on this and this would be really the only answer... but here we are again with more of that "that's OP" "and that would be bad" that's literally a mechanic the mages deal with on a daily.... so it just goes to show that what people are saying just doesn't add up.... do you see what i'm trying to say?

i think the Disarm spell would fit in with the class well and add to the synergy of the kit that mages have been given

even on the Zerg concern that you have, it's terrible playing mage against a Zerg, there's not frontline and backline, because there's not enough FFs to peel when they are fighting 1vX and mounted archers go straight for mages because there's no way to punish them when most of the Frontline are fighting and the mages are being interrupted by arrows. so it's something the common mage would deal with on the daily, why should it be different for the other classes? why is it different? i think it's completely within the balance of the game to add that, Henrik said on stream there will be a lot of time before the other things like knockdown will be in game, this is a simple system that can be implemented by Persistence and a needed one at that

Ooooo you're mounted. Gross. Who cares then, ya I could see a mounted only version that makes it so they are off balance or something stupid. Although you can purify corrupt and so they would need a way to react too. That same spell would crush foot combat though. Mounted isn't as much skill. They simply can't hold lines or cycle or anything like that which is the basics of foot and takes a lot more skill. Hell most mounted can't even focus they just spam attack the nearest enemy and first to lose the horses loses.

 

[AssassinOTL]

Ooooo you're mounted. Gross. Who cares then, ya I could see a mounted only version that makes it so they are off balance or something stupid. Although you can purify corrupt and so they would need a way to react too. That same spell would crush foot combat though. Mounted isn't as much skill. They simply can't hold lines or cycle or anything like that which is the basics of foot and takes a lot more skill. Hell most mounted can't even focus they just spam attack the nearest enemy and first to lose the horses loses.

Yeah right now there's not much skill cap to it, i think it would add to the class a little more diversity since it's been stacked with so many Handicaps in the favor of literally most things out there

 

[Fargus]

If you want to start adding spells and mechanics in the name of fairness and balance your first step should be changing all spells from hitscan to projectile, because right now it's not fair to have a source of damage that is unblockable and undodgeable, I should not be able to charge a spell hold it for 20 seconds and be able to at any point I wish release it and hit someone for free with zero counter play other that run at me and hope you make it before I kill you or run away because I am probably faster than you are.

Putting in a primary needed for mounted mage was necessary because you got too much utility for almost no points invested. Even with out controlled riding anyone short of a dedicated MA could not kill you. Period. If you died to anyone other than mounted archer before it was because you played extremely poorly not anything you opponent actually did. Now you don't do nearly as much damage without it and foot archers can actually fend you off.

 

[AssassinOTL]

If you want to start adding spells and mechanics in the name of fairness and balance your first step should be changing all spells from hitscan to projectile, because right now it's not fair to have a source of damage that is unblockable and undodgeable, I should not be able to charge a spell hold it for 20 seconds and be able to at any point I wish release it and hit someone for free with zero counter play other that run at me and hope you make it before I kill you or run away because I am probably faster than you are.

Putting in a primary needed for mounted mage was necessary because you got too much utility for almost no points invested. Even with out controlled riding anyone short of a dedicated MA could not kill you. Period. If you died to anyone other than mounted archer before it was because you played extremely poorly not anything you opponent actually did. Now you don't do nearly as much damage without it and foot archers can actually fend you off.

First off i dont disagree the class needed the MM skill, i actually asked Henrik for it with Bits on his Q&A stream and he said they would not do it. fast forward 4 months and here we are with a terrible version of it. First off the reason casting was longer on mount was because it was free. That's straight from Henrik's mouth. now it's 100 points, you pay the player for investing the 100 points, same cast times as on foot, MA dont pull slower on mount, they actually get smoother aiming.

unforgeable? Have you seen Tzone's Mage video? you don't have to dodge it for it to miss. and second i've had many FFs do a Z pattern to me and makes it really hard to hit, so it is dodgeable unless you want to run at a mage in a straight line, Unblockable? you can litterally reflect 100% of the damage back to the mage, so all wrong points all you FFs echo that make no sense.

the problem is when you spend the points you get now 2 handicaps, 30% concentration with long cast times, you cant put both on a skill that costs 100 points. there is litterally no skill in the game that asks for 100 points to be worst at something. It's a bad add and i think the Disarm will make the class just effective, not strong, and not weak, just at a middle point where it needs to be.

 

[pooternackle]

Mages would be vastly improved if obesity wasn't a prerequisite for decent damage. It doesn't make sense that there is no +20 int for low-weight characters. Dex mages essentially have to accept lower damage and much lower HP in order to run as fast/slightly faster than a foot fighter of their same clade.

 

[Tzone]

Mages would be vastly improved if obesity wasn't a prerequisite for decent damage. It doesn't make sense that there is no +20 int for low-weight characters. Dex mages essentially have to accept lower damage and much lower HP in order to run as fast/slightly faster than a foot fighter of their same clade.

Im playing a lean dex mage as well now with 105 int. Still slaps and hits pretty hard.

 

[pooternackle]

Im playing a lean dex mage as well now with 105 int. Still slaps and hits pretty hard.

The difference between 105 int and 130+ is huge though, and lean still gives you decent HP. I'm talking about Skinny and Bony (or, inshallah, skeletal). Skinny gives +5 int, bony gives +10, skeletal gives nothing -- it's still a mystery to me what the point of skeletal even is. The +10 is enough to make a good damage mage build (120+ int) across several clades, and sheev can hit +119 on bony; but you have to deal with being two shot due to the hp reduction. Bony also hits your mana pool due to the -5 to psyche.

The HP reduction would be fine if the damage and speed advantages warranted it.

 

[AssassinOTL]

The difference between 105 int and 130+ is huge though, and lean still gives you decent HP. I'm talking about Skinny and Bony (or, inshallah, skeletal). Skinny gives +5 int, bony gives +10, skeletal gives nothing -- it's still a mystery to me what the point of skeletal even is. The +10 is enough to make a good damage mage build (120+ int) across several clades, and sheev can hit +119 on bony; but you have to deal with being two shot due to the hp reduction. Bony also hits your mana pool due to the -5 to psyche.

The HP reduction would be fine if the damage and speed advantages warranted it.

This is what i'm talking about when it comes to the mage class all the logic used for balance is thrown out, the other classes would get a similar advantage, but not mage they use reverse logic

 

[Tzone]

The difference between 105 int and 130+ is huge though, and lean still gives you decent HP. I'm talking about Skinny and Bony (or, inshallah, skeletal). Skinny gives +5 int, bony gives +10, skeletal gives nothing -- it's still a mystery to me what the point of skeletal even is. The +10 is enough to make a good damage mage build (120+ int) across several clades, and sheev can hit +119 on bony; but you have to deal with being two shot due to the hp reduction. Bony also hits your mana pool due to the -5 to psyche.

The HP reduction would be fine if the damage and speed advantages warranted it.

for foot the meta is pretty much buldging sheeva for mage which is around 115 You still do 62s most of the time with a fulm or flamestrike. 50s a lot with tlash. Outburst is just busted with 32s. This is still a dex mage.

And 105 int on a lean is still hitting for just a little less while having a lot more dex. lean is still like 160 hp. skinny and lower is obviously a no go but lean is faster then everything and you get.

You are only getting 138s as a mounted mage which changes everything as you are limited to only being on horse.

 

[WolfAchilles]

unforgeable? Have you seen Tzone's Mage video? you don't have to dodge it for it to miss. and second i've had many FFs do a Z pattern to me and makes it really hard to hit, so it is dodgeable unless you want to run at a mage in a straight line, Unblockable? you can litterally reflect 100% of the damage back to the mage, so all wrong points all you FFs echo that make no sense.

God man, make up your mind. First you say Tzone's mage video was an example of how magic doesn't actually have range and mages go oom instantly. That was obviously BS. Now, FFs doing a Z pattern is too hard to land your hitscan. Totally equivalent to actually having to land a projectile or having a blockable directional attack. Obviouslyyyy
Magic reflect exists and that's a melee's counterplay? I don't know many foot fighters that cast magic reflects. Do you?
I have to predict that I'm going to be targeted by spells and then call for a preemptive reflect and if I don't get targeted by spells it can end up killing me by reflecting a friendly heal? If magic reflect could be used on reflex and not prediction, you'd have a point there, but you don't.
Great job sidestepping the projectile vs hitscan topic though!

now it's 100 points, you pay the player for investing the 100 points, same cast times as on foot, MA dont pull slower on mount, they actually get smoother aiming.

Did it slip your mind that MAs can't use longbows or longbow arrows? Do you think an MA does as much damage as a foot archer with the same stats? No... They don't. Do you think MC does more damage on foot or on mount? MC used to do more damage, and it was broken, so MC was systematically nerfed so that that they are limited from reaching such high damage by restricting the weight of their weapons while mounted. That, coupled with how crappy the MC swing animations are is why MCs are all couching spears now, just FYI. An MC on foot can do more damage than an MC while mounted. Why then would they choose to be mounted? You guessed it, the speed.
A mage on foot outputs more dps than a mage with the same stats on mount. Just like every other class.
Your mouth rivals the biggest cattle ranch in the world for BS production.
I will say that maybe addressing the stats of weight classes is a good area for discussion if you want mage buffs. That was a practical and reasonable thing to address. That said, I think the old int curve was better for overall balance in this regard, as well as making hybrids viable. I personally would love to see more human mages and would love to see them get buffed in the clade gifts department to make another breed of viable foot mage. Make human hybrid meta!

 

[Fargus]

First off i dont disagree the class needed the MM skill, i actually asked Henrik for it with Bits on his Q&A stream and he said they would not do it. fast forward 4 months and here we are with a terrible version of it. First off the reason casting was longer on mount was because it was free. That's straight from Henrik's mouth. now it's 100 points, you pay the player for investing the 100 points, same cast times as on foot, MA dont pull slower on mount, they actually get smoother aiming.

No they don't pull slower but they don't get access to their highest damage weapon in the long bow and their damage is mitigated by armor on both targets of the rider and the horse, where as the mage's damage is only blocked once with a magic reflect on the horse and reduced only on the rider with psy which was nerfed because now all MA's and MC's need higher dex for the sacrifice of lower psy.

unforgeable? Have you seen Tzone's Mage video? you don't have to dodge it for it to miss. and second i've had many FFs do a Z pattern to me and makes it really hard to hit, so it is dodgeable unless you want to run at a mage in a straight line, Unblockable? you can litterally reflect 100% of the damage back to the mage, so all wrong points all you FFs echo that make no sense.

Both these points are very disingenuous on your part. Unblockable yes because you can literally reflect all damage once and even then you can break that quite easily if you are paying attention, where as with fighters you can 100% block and reflect damage on any character no primary points required with the parry systems, just need a weapon which is much easier to use than reapplying magic reflect in the middle of a fight without using a mount to disengage and returning to the fight.

the problem is when you spend the points you get now 2 handicaps, 30% concentration with long cast times, you cant put both on a skill that costs 100 points. there is litterally no skill in the game that asks for 100 points to be worst at something. It's a bad add and i think the Disarm will make the class just effective, not strong, and not weak, just at a middle point where it needs to be.

You are completely disregarding everything else they put in into addition the mounted magery skill. You have long cast times and 30% concentration and for those you gain increased mobility/survivability due to the horse movement speed and horse armor even without dex. You gain more damage now that both MAs and MCs can no longer dump dex in favor psy or int for casting and they also receive a nerf to the healing they can use on their own horses without going into MM themselves. The only time the 30% concentration comes into play is the MM v MM and the MM v MA, They MM v MM fight is obnoxious and is a battle of attrition over a battle of skill while the MM v Ma is much more dependent on skill but is still highly in your favor when you look at the entirety of the comparison of the classes with the reduction of Psy and healing for MA.

 

[Tzone]

No they don't pull slower but they don't get access to their highest damage weapon in the long bow and their damage is mitigated by armor on both targets of the rider and the horse, where as the mage's damage is only blocked once with a magic reflect on the horse and reduced only on the rider with psy which was nerfed because now all MA's and MC's need higher dex for the sacrifice of lower psy.

On my MA the most annoying player to fight is a mage. On my mage I dont fear or worry about mounted. Just fulm into a mental projection kills most horses unless they are max level. Even with out it outburst slap and if they get close there horse gets a fulm.

 

[Tzone]

God man, make up your mind. First you say Tzone's mage video was an example of how magic doesn't actually have range and mages go oom instantly. That was obviously BS. Now, FFs doing a Z pattern is too hard to land your hitscan.

When people are zig zagging I find that favorable to me as a mage. That means they are lose ground to me when they are running away or covering less distance if they are trying to run up to me. Its of not really any skill to land hits on a zig zaging player with hit scan like how it is if they are a bows.

 

[AssassinOTL]

No they don't pull slower but they don't get access to their highest damage weapon in the long bow and their damage is mitigated by armor on both targets of the rider and the horse, where as the mage's damage is only blocked once with a magic reflect on the horse and reduced only on the rider with psy which was nerfed because now all MA's and MC's need higher dex for the sacrifice of lower psy.



Both these points are very disingenuous on your part. Unblockable yes because you can literally reflect all damage once and even then you can break that quite easily if you are paying attention, where as with fighters you can 100% block and reflect damage on any character no primary points required with the parry systems, just need a weapon which is much easier to use than reapplying magic reflect in the middle of a fight without using a mount to disengage and returning to the fight.



You are completely disregarding everything else they put in into addition the mounted magery skill. You have long cast times and 30% concentration and for those you gain increased mobility/survivability due to the horse movement speed and horse armor even without dex. You gain more damage now that both MAs and MCs can no longer dump dex in favor psy or int for casting and they also receive a nerf to the healing they can use on their own horses without going into MM themselves. The only time the 30% concentration comes into play is the MM v MM and the MM v MA, They MM v MM fight is obnoxious and is a battle of attrition over a battle of skill while the MM v Ma is much more dependent on skill but is still highly in your favor when you look at the entirety of the comparison of the classes with the reduction of Psy and healing for MA.

Yeah they dont have access to the Long bow, but they gain more than they would on foot, a long bow archer being pushed by two footies is a dead man shooting, if he has a horse and a shortbow, he can easily now put those two footies down and chase, not worry about stam too much and keep his distance with a higher vantage point over cover and obstacles which is huge for archers.

on your last point i'm sorry but it shows you dont use a mount and if you do, it's not well now with the current changes, you can start a fight and never cast a spell as you get focused down and die, there's not balance in that, it's just irresponsible development and balance catering to melee and foot fighters that have been crying grown men for over 10 years there's not a mobility factor for having to cast a long time in a straight line, there's not ability to chase, and if you're trying to escape, you're an easy target to line up on MA or MC. it's not even much of a contest against the other mounted because one hits you for TRIPPLE DIGITS, that's right 100+ per hit. no way to out heal that with interruption or try to out DPS with damage and long cast times with almost guaranteed interruption and moving in a predictable trajectory. and if you're not an Alvarin build then you fall into the Nerf on dex they did to Oghmir months ago and have terrible handling even if you do put all your points into dex

 

[pooternackle]

for foot the meta is pretty much buldging sheeva for mage which is around 115 You still do 62s most of the time with a fulm or flamestrike. 50s a lot with tlash. Outburst is just busted with 32s. This is still a dex mage.

And 105 int on a lean is still hitting for just a little less while having a lot more dex. lean is still like 160 hp. skinny and lower is obviously a no go but lean is faster then everything and you get.

You are only getting 138s as a mounted mage which changes everything as you are limited to only being on horse.

Bulging sheev is really the only non-obese mage that is competitive, and that's because it exceeds obese mages in hp, has fast speed, and average damage. Basically a dex mage, as you say, without any of the downsides. If anything the bulging sheev highlights the problems facing non-fat mages -- in order to be a competitive dex mage, you still have to be bordering on obese.

It's clear that bony and to a lesser extent skinny are designed for a mage archetype, but they are totally out-classed in both pvp and pve.

 

[AssassinOTL]

When people are zig zagging I find that favorable to me as a mage. That means they are lose ground to me when they are running away or covering less distance if they are trying to run up to me. Its of not really any skill to land hits on a zig zaging player with hit scan like how it is if they are a bows.

You love calling me a liar, but you can barely hit a player running a slant at 5 ft in front of you. dont lie or i'll link the timestamp

 

[FreeHorses]

class is fine

 

[AssassinOTL]

class is fine

Your skill and placement might be in this situation where you have time to cast but the class is not fine... get on with your chubby sexy ass picking on noob footies

 

[Tzone]

Bulging sheev is really the only non-obese mage that is competitive, and that's because it exceeds obese mages in hp, has fast speed, and average damage. Basically a dex mage, as you say, without any of the downsides. If anything the bulging sheev highlights the problems facing non-fat mages -- in order to be a competitive dex mage, you still have to be bordering on obese.

It's clear that bony and to a lesser extent skinny are designed for a mage archetype, but they are totally out-classed in both pvp and pve.

buldging sheeva certainly is current meta but there is room for stout dagger mage and leand dex mage.

Lean will be nuking less in fights but that doesnt really matter if you have multiple mages. Lean is better solo or when you get caugth out of position.

Mages are really strong at 105 int still and the higer dex I find mean more dps on fleeing or kited targets.

 

[pooternackle]

buldging sheeva certainly is current meta but there is room for stout dagger mage and leand dex mage.

Lean will be nuking less in fights but that doesnt really matter if you have multiple mages. Lean is better solo or when you get caugth out of position.

Mages are really strong at 105 int still and the higer dex I find mean more dps on fleeing or kited targets.

I guess I just don't buy that a mage is still really strong as 105 int. That's probably around the upper-borders of a mage hybrid, but they're still doing somewhere between 10-15% less damage per spell cast than a 130-138 int mage. At 120 int, which is what I'd consider the baseline for a pure mage, damage is 6-10% higher than a 105 int mage.

A non-veela foot fighter with a 15% lower damage bonus than another foot fighter would not be considered as having a "really strong" foot fighter build.