Haven MUST be Removed:

[Emdash]

I have written this before, and I tried to lay out the reasoning. It is hard to get people to move past a certain point, which is, "New players NEED to get a foothold," because that is a fair point. HOWEVER,

The best time to bind players to the game is when they are starry eyed. You are making them experience a version of the game that is IN NO WAY representative of the actual game. It serves only to deplete their refund time. It is a bandaid over the biggest flaw in the game. New players CANNOT get a foot hold. They can pretend they are getting one in Haven only to go into 'reality' and get their shit pushed and quit.

This is also, aside, why you should give people a 3 month sub on first purchase, because if they don't quit, they will likely stay. Most people are not gonna dabble in MO, but 1 month is too soon to ask for another payment.

Now, the second problem of why Haven is toxic for the game is that it removes that content, which is new players, as well as the resources they generate, from the economy and the sandbox. That is a much bigger deal than people think, apparently, because nobody has said UR RIGHT when I said it like 100 other times.

NEW PLAYERS MUST BE IN PERSISTENCE. They must have an area that is not awful like scraping dirt level gains, where they can compete with each other for spots and move up from there. It's good for guilds, to see what people can do, and good for players because they are a part of the real world. Even if they quit, they probably put some stuff into rotation.

One of the guys I talked to, who has likely quit, said he already lost all of his Haven shit and will probably remake a character in Haven and stay there til his sub runs out. THAT'S INSANE? But it's not abnormal. If you wanna make like pve haven game for a discounted sub where people can just dick around and ride horses and hit bandits, do it... but to have that as the entry or demo of this game is a waste of everyone's time. I KNOW you put dev time into it. Put that effort into smoothing out areas in the game where new players can flourish.

CREATE AREAS WHERE YOU CAN BAN SUPER TOXIC PEOPLE. The rules will apply like nub zone, etc, and people can PK... whatever, but if someone is just only PKing and griefing nubs, I know... sandbox, but it makes more sense to be like yea dude you gotta find another spot to grief than to REDESIGN THE WHOLE FUCKING GAME. But that's just my PoV.

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

I don't agree. Haven constructed as a F2P experience can be very good for the game's population. I really wish they would unlock the progression locks artificially imposed by Haven. The game has significantly evolved since Haven launched. Previously a low clade character was not inhibited very much when compared to a max clade character. With the release of the mastery system you might as well not even try to PvP unless your are at least 40+ mastery. If the current transfer requirements remain, I see no reason why player progress of clade levels and mastery should be locked while in Haven.

 

[Emdash]

I don't agree. Haven constructed as a F2P experience can be very good for the game's population. I really wish they would unlock the progression locks artificially imposed by Haven. The game has significantly evolved since Haven launched. Previously a low clade character was not inhibited very much when compared to a max clade character. With the release of the mastery system you might as well not even try to PvP unless your are at least 40+ mastery. If the current transfer requirements remain, I see no reason why player progress of clade levels and mastery should be locked while in Haven.

like I said, in theory it makes sense that people can safely level up, but when you decide that you are gonna make people grind m40 in Haven as f2ps before they decide they want to sub... I dunno. No words can prepare you for what happens in Nave haha.

My friend and I killed some nub around Duli and he talked so much shit. He probably quit the game soon after. Like, this guy was just doing his thing, but I think he thought he was good or something. We rolled up on MA Lyks in Cron and derped him out with ease. He kept talking about how much the skill difference was (that we were trash and he was an elite player, that MO isn't hard etc...) and it's like ok. I told him I liked his enthusiasm. I can't resist talking shit if people keep pushing, tho. Anyway, the point is that this dude probably felt he was in his happy home and doing something, and that's the kind of mindset Haven gives people.

But the first goal of competition is to rip that out from under someone, and in MO, it's super easy to do. And what have those players contributed to the game when they quit? Not much, sold a bunch of bandit heads prol. I'd like a world where new players were able to make gains by producing the baseline materials necessary for MO like wood and ore, mid tier butchery mats... if they are going to mastery 40 in Haven, they will expect to go right into something. They don't wanna go back to crawling on their stomach. They will likely either zerg up or quit.

It is a very complex issue and that's why they have been unable to solve it. I don't think I have the answers, but I know this answer is wrong. I would like to see them TRY to solve it.

My thesis is this: Players should be able to clade and progress in THE REAL GAME. If they can't, the game is broken. Creating a mirror server for people to grind up is not healthy for the game at all, whether it is free or not. It might inflate the population numbers, but as long as there is no connection between Haven and Nave, so many nub sweat hours are wasted, and the whole low end of the game will be imbalanced. People will think they come in the game as ready to be a factor, and it will create entitlement.

In a game like NBA 2k, you have to pay real money + grind ai relentlessly to spec your character. The harder they have made it, the more toxic and entitled the playerbase has gotten because they think they can do the shit they did vs bots vs players. I encourage you (and SV) to really consider what I am saying.

But haven as a f2p aside, that is not necessary, as a pseudo tech demo, wouldn't be bad.

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

My friend and I killed some nub around Duli and he talked so much shit. He probably quit the game soon after. Like, this guy was just doing his thing, but I think he thought he was good or something. We rolled up on MA Lyks in Cron and derped him out with ease. He kept talking about how much the skill difference was (that we were trash and he was an elite player, that MO isn't hard etc...) and it's like ok. I told him I liked his enthusiasm. I can't resist talking shit if people keep pushing, tho. Anyway, the point is that this dude probably felt he was in his happy home and doing something, and that's the kind of mindset Haven gives people.

This is why the game is failing. You ganked someone with your boyfriend. There was no player vs player. It was playerS vs player and it really further reinforces my initial point. Besides Haven, the game needs purely safe areas in Nave that players can level up or just play the game casually. The sewers would be a perfect setting for this. Low reward, low risk, close to town.

 

[Emdash]

This is why the game is failing. You ganked someone with your boyfriend. There was no player vs player. It was playerS vs player and it really further reinforces my initial point. Besides Haven, the game needs purely safe areas in Nave that players can level up or just play the game casually. The sewers would be a perfect setting for this. Low reward, low risk, close to town.

So emo. I was just chilling. He was just chilling. We were talking about SOUP and shit, 1 hr + into a roam thru all the hot spots, we ended up coming down toward duli from tin area. We saw ONE DUDE. He was not yellow. His horse was named FREEPALESTINE. He said don't fight me I'm newwww, and then he proceeded to talk about how he was so much better.

However, that aside, I wish you would look at what I am saying. That was just outlining unrealistic expectations of 'new players,' and their egos. He had 43 gold on him, or something, so it was worth.

I think safe-ish areas are indeed good, but that there should still be conflict, and Haven should be removed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MortalOnline2/comments/1sjdv7r
I feel like this guy reads my posts and dumps it into AI and posts it on Reddit. I agree with what I skimmed. That's still not an excuse for Haven or safe zones. Now, you can mine in the guard zone safely. In MO1, you could mine in the guard zone, but if someone wanted to, they could get you.

I was a peaceful player all of MO1, and tbh I am mostly peaceful in MO2, unless people piss me off. I usually die because I am giving people the benefit of the doubt then they come up my back and own me. But w/e. I don't mind cuz it's a long game, and I will know next time.

You can't really say that I am killing the game with my behavior because I really feel like I am helping the game. I try to keep producing things, etc. Look at the brokers. 100+g for wood, hard to even get some items. No food in most places or shit food like PIG. This is because people come into the game and are not forced to get a foot hold. I made a lot of ambrosial pig in MO1 haha. That was how I got my start. Oats and pig. There's nothing WRONG with that.

Just like there is nothing wrong with developing the PvE / world interaction part of the game, but people should be able to run up on you and kill you at any time. Why? Because that is a vital part of the game. It helps make people stop being dickwads, believe it or not. It creates energy which leads to larger things.

However, if someone is just a total griefer, they should be banned from said area. There should be like 2 or 3 people, who can be content creators or something, and let them grief the new area, then the nubs will have villains and they can band together. Instead, we get outlaws.

Safety is IN THE GAME. You can make tons of progress safely in game. But if you want to PLAY THE GAME you are going to be vulnerable. They made the game super super safe, and nothing changed with people raging about being killed every time they leave town. Interesting! I want to see a playstyle for people to stay in the guard zone if they want. Let them milk cows, breed horses, build furniture, whatever... that's awesome. I support that, and if the system was interesting enough, I would get down on it, but safety is a whole different ballgame. It's like the flag system, anything that protects nubs is of more advantage to vets. Safe areas = bots probably.

- shrug - please consider tho.

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

I don't have a reddit account, but sure man, think whatever you want about me.

 

[finegamingconnoisseur]

The game started out with no Haven, people complained that it was too harsh for the new player.

So SV added Haven.

Now people are complaining that Haven is toxic and bad for the new player.

Human beings are a funny species.

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

The game started out with no Haven, people complained that it was too harsh for the new player.

So SV added Haven.

Now people are complaining that Haven is toxic and bad for the new player.

Human beings are a funny species.

No "people" are complaining. It's one guy on the forums, the forums of maybe 10 active accounts.

 

[Emdash]

The game started out with no Haven, people complained that it was too harsh for the new player.

So SV added Haven.

Now people are complaining that Haven is toxic and bad for the new player.

Human beings are a funny species.

this game never was without Haven. I remember leaving it on launch day.

Back when you could leave haven when you wanted to haha.

It's not overly toxic and bad for the new player, not more so than any of the other options (pluses and minuses,) but it IS bad for the (real) game world and proof the game has failed at developing an early game that is engaging enough to make people continue on, even with the possibility of dying (a MO staple,) and all of the mats / work that is done in haven is not transferred to the game world.

It's way more asinine when you look at it without the 'foregone conclusion' that it is the only option. It's an instanced zone that people are expected to learn how to play MO, a hardcore pvp mmo, that doesn't have pvp at all. It is peak absurdity, but the argument that it is necessary is strong. I just disagree with it, and I think the cons outweigh the pros. The only real pro for SV is possibly stealing people's refund window.

Cuz people posting reviews I LOVE THE TUTORIAL ISLAND but I got derped out every time I left town... is not a good look for the game. It's not so different from the old reviews that were I LOVED THE IDEA OF THE GAME but I got derped out every time I left town. One seems more compelling imo, makes it seem like that part can be eventually fixed, the whole... giving people a chance.

 

[finegamingconnoisseur]

this game never was without Haven. I remember leaving it on launch day.

Back when you could leave haven when you wanted to haha.

It's not overly toxic and bad for the new player, not more so than any of the other options (pluses and minuses,) but it IS bad for the (real) game world and proof the game has failed at developing an early game that is engaging enough to make people continue on, even with the possibility of dying (a MO staple,) and all of the mats / work that is done in haven is not transferred to the game world.

It's way more asinine when you look at it without the 'foregone conclusion' that it is the only option. It's an instanced zone that people are expected to learn how to play MO, a hardcore pvp mmo, that doesn't have pvp at all. It is peak absurdity, but the argument that it is necessary is strong. I just disagree with it, and I think the cons outweigh the pros. The only real pro for SV is possibly stealing people's refund window.

Cuz people posting reviews I LOVE THE TUTORIAL ISLAND but I got derped out every time I left town... is not a good look for the game. It's not so different from the old reviews that were I LOVED THE IDEA OF THE GAME but I got derped out every time I left town. One seems more compelling imo, makes it seem like that part can be eventually fixed, the whole... giving people a chance.

Well, I didn't say at launch, but during alpha and beta there were plenty of threads asking SV to add Haven. If we want to go back even further, people actually asked SV to add Haven back in the latter years of MO1, and they did.

 

[Emdash]

Well, I didn't say at launch, but during alpha and beta there were plenty of threads asking SV to add Haven. If we want to go back even further, people actually asked SV to add Haven back in the latter years of MO1, and they did.

yea, I know. I had left before haven. Like I said, I think the steam launch ruined SV's ability to make a hardcore game because they became obsessed with protecting people instead of inspiring them. They have put so much into protection when they could have just made more stuff for people to do at the ground level. They don't need to keep the players who wanna be mid level players but don't have the heart, they just need players in general. People who are farming, mining, etc as a profession are important as well.

Also @ enjoyer. I didn't say that was you. I was saying he is speaking the same language I am. The game needs more base level production tasks, that aren't gated... they need basic time investment content that cant be gated like a bandit camp. I remember saying that they needed to get people out of the GY back in MO1, and their solution was to add haven. Then you go to haven, spec, then go to GY or go to a nearby bandit camp. It's flawed.

Creative solutions are good, and @ people asking for shit, people have asked for wild shit. People were asking for a pve server, too, since forever. Not everything people think they want will be good for game.

I want the game to be fun. The difference between me and other people is that while we both want the game to be fun for us, they generally want it to benefit their playstyle or make life easier for them. I want the game to be functioning as a system, where energy starts at the bottom and moves up through the levels of players, then top level energy / TC and Siege stuff pushes down against it to help refine it. I am not the target demographic, per se, but I am highly sure I know how to make the game good. I have been here a long time and watched a lot of shit. I dunno how to fix... the flag system, combat, lag, etc, but I can come up with a way to make the game function. A task system that starts and ends in NPCs is stealing energy, just as haven is. The idea of tasks is good, though, but it would be nice if the people doing said tasks could be bringing back mats or something, and the idea of a place for lower level / nubby players is good, too, but having it be offset from the game defeats the purpose imo. The biggest impact Haven has had on the game is arguably when people used it to transfer money to Nave at launch. That's the only time haven sweat has been meaningful.

 

[Yeonan]

"Im a mostly peaceful player"

"Me and my friends rolled up on a noob while in cron and blasted him, bet he quit"

By all means play a murderer, but something aint adding up here.

Haven is good for the game.

One thing not often considered is not simply new MO2 players, but players new to the genre of hardcore mmo pvp games.

Haven allows people to get aquainted with the basic systems and controls of the game, and get oriented as to how a game functions at the base level.

And if its their first experience in a pvp mmo like this, having them get invested in it and built up a little before the real shenanigans begin is a good thing

Using your example, you think that noob is more or less likely to quit if you killed him in his first few hours of playing, or after hes invested 50+ hours and has a small bank to fall back on?

 

[Emdash]

"Im a mostly peaceful player"

"Me and my friends rolled up on a noob while in cron and blasted him, bet he quit"

By all means play a murderer, but something aint adding up here.

Haven is good for the game.

One thing not often considered is not simply new MO2 players, but players new to the genre of hardcore mmo pvp games.

Haven allows people to get aquainted with the basic systems and controls of the game, and get oriented as to how a game functions at the base level.

And if its their first experience in a pvp mmo like this, having them get invested in it and built up a little before the real shenanigans begin is a good thing

Using your example, you think that noob is more or less likely to quit if you killed him in his first few hours of playing, or after hes invested 50+ hours and has a small bank to fall back on?

You should meet me in game.

He had already played 70 hours, he said. He quit, I think.

That was my point: it is nice to let people get a foothold; however, there is a level of entitlement that comes with that. People have different expectations after putting time in as well. If their expectations do not match the world they were sold on, that could be problematic. It is problematic. Look at steam reviews.

That aside:

Why are we trying to appeal to players who are not ready for a core feature (pvp?) opposed to trying to balance the game to make it so that it works? You can say now people enter the game with more of a foothold, but they still get rekt the same.

Other games have tutorials and they work; it's not necessary to, like MortalEnjoyer said, have somewhere to grind up to x levels for y hours. If you are not grinding up as much crafting shit as you can in Haven, you are derping out.

Can somebody please lay out a more complex case for Haven? I think it's good for new players to be protected, too, but that could happen in game. They wouldn't get 100% protection, but nobody gets that... anywhere but Haven. There are some people that will benefit from Haven, like if they group up etc, but again... I have tried to help a few groups of people, and I bet they are all gone now. I certainly haven't seen them, but I am getting kind of worn out with the whole MO thing now, too, on a few levels.

IF the issue is that new players come in, even if they have heart and skill, and are unable to compete with vets because of action skill levels and trinkets / mastery, then I suggest they address that. Nothing will ever match the feeling of spawning into MO. I remember when I did it in MO1. If I had not had that feeling, I probably would not have stuck around haha. I know I am different than other people in some ways, but give those kind of people something to aspire to, give them a decent pathway that is 'sandbox' and it'll be fine.

Nobody should play MO for like 50 hours and then quit, but they do a lot. They build all their shit and let it fall. Why is that? That's a very important issue to address. They didn't get sieged out. They just uninstalled and never came back.

It's hard life for new players in Nave, but, as I tried to explain, imagine an economy where the whole low end of production is cut off and quarantined. You go to McDonalds and there is like one guy who is selling burgers as well as gold chains and the guy who is making the burgers is in the UFC.

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

One thing not often considered is not simply new MO2 players, but players new to the genre of hardcore mmo pvp games.

SV has never advertised MO2 as a hardcore game like they did for MO1. There is zero language in any of their media supporting MO2 as a hardcore game. I agree with you. The reality is the game isn't meant to even be hardcore. Emdash thinks he performed PvP when he did not. He performed a gank on a low skill, low geared player, while also using numbers against him. This is a core flaw to the game. So many MO2 gamers won't even go out in the world solo because they are going to get their shit pushed in. It's just facts.