Combat/Overall feedback

bbihah

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Looks more like a mistake on the attackers side though or just really bad luck? Add in a mechanic like block delay and the times it happens by pure chance is going to go down. But I can see this being frustrating, but its nowhere near as frustrating or as deliberate as getting hit through blocks and there being nothing you can really do about it.
 

Rhias

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Looks more like a mistake on the attackers side though or just really bad luck? Add in a mechanic like block delay and the times it happens by pure chance is going to go down. But I can see this being frustrating, but its nowhere near as frustrating or as deliberate as getting hit through blocks and there being nothing you can really do about it.
I assume my team mate in front of him charged a hit in that direction and it was bad luck. Don't think he saw me.
 
Are you saying 360 blocking is a good band aid so they can focus on more important issues with combat?
Or you mean that the entire thing underlying 360 is something that should be low priority?
I'm confused
Sounds to me like both:
There might be more important issues with combat.
And what underlies 360 deg. blocking, if it is issues of ping* that it compensates for, can only be fixed just so far. Especially without SV buying one of those cruise ships that's suffering from underuse during the current plague, and putting the server as well as all MO2 players on board in order to sail in circles forever on the high seas like some kind of Flying Dutchman... or putting some servers elsewhere... equally unlikely?

What do you think, @bbihah ? Is a block delay the answer?


Whether something is a good band-aid kind of depends on whether the underlying problem can ever get better.

*Ping is a thing. Ping happens. Even if it only seems to happen to the other guy.
 

bbihah

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I think block delay is the quick short-term answer to the turtling/blocking being too easy and forgiving and is relatively easy to implement. Its what a lot of games in the (melee combat)genre have done to make things challenging.

The 360 question however, honestly the ping, prediction etc cant get much better than it currently is. It can get a bit of tuning but the underlying "problem" is still going to remain and its never going to be doable in the way mordhau does combat and thats something every decision they have to make have to account for. Their code already works pretty good in making sure what people see happens, but put an arc with the current net code and that will start to change. The delay stuff is atleast accordingly to how americans say it is currently going to punish americans harder and there is where the majority of the backend work will have to complement. So that no matter your ping (to a certain point) you have atleast almost the same time as a good ping user to react so that the blocking mechanic doesnt become unusable.
 
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Rhias

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I think block delay is the quick short-term answer to the turtling/blocking being too easy and forgiving and is relatively easy to implement. Its what a lot of games in the (melee combat)genre have done to make things challenging.
Lot of games in the meele combat genere also don't support holding the attack... If you can't refresh your parry it's basically just wait some time and get a free block hit.
 

bbihah

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Hence the delay? Someone comes at you holding an attack, you hit block. Oops, you are now locked out of refreshing and changing direction for X amount of time. Guy coming at you stops his attack and changes direction, or just waits until your attack turns into a normal block. This delay would also make it so the time the block counts as parry can become much shorter. But things like, slower swings as well as looking over so that higher ping players have the same time to react is most likely going to be needed.

Then there will be the risk in changing your attack direction too, since you have to hit block to cancel your attack fast right now. So now you are yourself locked out of blocking, the guy blocking can then try to get out a atleast partly charged swing if he acts fast enough.
 
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Livingshade

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Are you saying 360 blocking is a good band aid so they can focus on more important issues with combat?
Or you mean that the entire thing underlying 360 is something that should be low priority?
I'm confused :(

Cause frankly, no one has even tried to convince me why 360 blocking is bad or brought an example when it has a detrimental effect on combat, more than the massive turtling we have, but then again getting hit in the back through your blocks is infinitely more detrimental to progress of developing combat. At this moment adding more depth to the combat to make blocking harder rather than taking steps back and constantly fighting the netcode seems more like a waste of time in my opinion.

Personally im still of the belief its a great band aid for the current situation of international players and should stay until combat gets deeper and the netcode can reliably handle a blocking arc.
mate what are you MUMBLING ABOUT 360 degree block is so AIDS. have you ever tried blocking someones attack IRL by turning your back and holding your weapon above your HEAD. ABSOLUTE DOGSHIT MECHANIC
 
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bbihah

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mate what are you MUMBLING ABOUT 360 degree block is so AIDS. have you ever tried blocking someones attack IRL by turning your back and holding your weapon above your HEAD. ABSOLUTE DOGSHIT MECHANIC
Have you also tried blocking an attack that you can not see, hear or feel or even know is coming IRL?

How about have you tried blocking an attack IRL from someone phase shifting through dimensions?



360 blocking > Getting hit through blocks.
 
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Livingshade

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Have you also tried blocking an attack that you can not see, hear or feel or even know is coming IRL?

How about have you tried blocking an attack IRL from someone phase shifting through dimensions?



360 blocking > Getting hit through blocks.
XD so binary you can either have 360 blocking or get hiit through blocks
NO MATE is not like so simple people with better ping with more fast weapon will be able to hit their attack faster than someone with less OP ping can see the attack and block so EVEN WITH 360 BLOCK is 0 USE but WITH 360 BLOCK people of similar ping will be playing turtle simulator
 

bbihah

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With the current system? yes. With international player base? yes.


Did you even read my suggestion for a blocking delay?
You do realize they should work forwards as well as planning forwards. Not just taking steps back all the time?

Like, trying the exact same thing they did for 10 years just to find out it still doesnt work?


If you are adamant in your belief that the only way turtling is done is through the 360 blocking system, then you are not very good at the game.
If you really believe that instead of adding more mechanics and depth to the combat system, we should make the entire combat based on tricking the netcode or using 40 million dpi to hide the telegraphing the devs have deliberately put in to make blocking a part of the game and have a slide fest instead, you can still play Mo1. its over there >
 
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Livingshade

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With the current system? yes. With international player base? yes.


Did you even read my suggestion for a blocking delay?
You do realize they should work forwards as well as planning forwards. Not just taking steps back all the time?

Like, trying the exact same thing they did for 10 years just to find out it still doesnt work?


If you are adamant in your belief that the only way turtling is done is through the 360 blocking system, then you are not very good at the game.
If you really believe that instead of adding more mechanics and depth to the combat system, we should make the entire combat based on tricking the netcode of the game and have a slide fest, you can still play Mo1. its over there >
when did i say turtling is only through 360 block WHEN you are making stuff up as you go
and you can add MORE MECHANICS MORE DEPTH and still FIX THE COMBAT at the same time this universe is not BINARY
 

bbihah

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But do you have the secret to faster than light information technology though? Because that is the only way you'd finally be able to prevent arcs from just being a way for people to abuse the prediction system to hit through blocks. That and putting a max ping limit to even play the game, which is out of the question because of our international playerbase.


You don't see how 360 blocking is not the main issue here and a literal non-issue in the greater scheme of things?
How is anyone seeing your swing direction if you are attacking them from behind @Livingshade? Could it be that you are in fact, not behind them?
Stop proposing to take steps back so the game gets perpetually stuck in the state it is right now, like mo1 was and is.


when did i say turtling is only through 360 block WHEN you are making stuff up as you go
EVEN WITH 360 BLOCK is 0 USE but WITH 360 BLOCK people of similar ping will be playing turtle simulator
There, there is where you said it
 
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Livingshade

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But do you have the secret to faster than light information technology though? Because that is the only way you'd finally be able to prevent arcs from just being a way for people to abuse the prediction system to hit through blocks. That and putting a max ping limit to even play the game, which is out of the question because of our international playerbase.


You don't see how 360 blocking is not the main issue here and a literal non-issue in the greater scheme of things?
How is anyone seeing your swing direction if you are attacking them from behind @Livingshade? Could it be that you are in fact, not behind them?
Stop proposing to take steps back so the game gets perpetually stuck in the state it is right now, like mo1 was and is.
MATE YOU HAVE TO BE TROLLING i do not believe for ONE MOMENT you have never played chivalry or mordhau where THERE IS 0 360 BLOCKING but you cannot just GET THROUGH BLOCKS SO EASY from prediction and SWINGS do not charge INSTANTLY i have seen MANY VIDEOS of people SEEING someone charge a swing just to turn around, run away THEN BLOCK WHEN THEY GET HIT IN THE BACK you must not play enough pvp if you do not know these BASIC MECHANICS right now
 

bbihah

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Neither of those games are MMOs or even have decently sized maps for that matter, and not a massive amount of players in it either.
It also doesn't have an international player base playing on the same servers and is not made with this in mind and keeping it relatively fair between low and high ping players.
 

Livingshade

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Neither of those games are MMOs or even have decently sized maps for that matter, and not a massive amount of players in it either.
It also doesn't have an international player base playing on the same servers and is not made with this in mind and keeping it relatively fair between low and high ping players.
because no one NA has ever played on EU and no on EU plays NA? i have so many PEOPLE that has played on EU server and it was not as good as them on NA but was VERY PLAYABLE NO 360 BLOCK NEEDED.. i also play on NA and was a little derpy at first but when you get used to it you just change your block and swing timing and is 100% playable ALSO MORDHAU can have 60-100 players on server EASILY and with same system probably can 200 people with minimal PROBLEM compared to MO where a single server node is crashed by just 40 people moving at same time so you have ABSOLUTELY no idea what you are saying
 

bbihah

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The game is also not made to work with high ping players vs low ping players as a mandatory thing when they were making it, so all the low ping players have an advantage.
Not to mention mordhau is written on an architecture as well as with code written this decade, not last decade. MO 2 shares a lot from MO 1 code and it shows. But they are working on it? Or what do you think?

Does Mordhau have all these 100 people running in a enormous world, with item databases, AI, persistence and literally [INSERT MO FEATURE HERE]?

Mortal was made with a lot of things in mind, Mordhau just had to be a good melee death match game with good fighting in it. B-B-B-BUT IT HAS RANGED WEAPONS COMBAT TACKED ON TOP!


i have seen MANY VIDEOS of people SEEING someone charge a swing just to turn around, run away THEN BLOCK WHEN THEY GET HIT IN THE BACK you must not play enough pvp if you do not know these BASIC MECHANICS right now
You do not think adding things to combat that make this harder or impossible is a better way to go about it? Some sort... of... delay, that would let you feint people into blocking early so that you could get a hit in?

Rather than error 404 argument not found [DEFAULT;RESPONSE]:Remove 360 blocking, Beep boop. ?
 
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Livingshade

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The game is also not made to work with high ping players vs low ping players as a mandatory thing when they were making it, so all the low ping players have an advantage.
Not to mention mordhau is written on an architecture as well as with code written this decade, not last decade. MO 2 shares a lot from MO 1 code and it shows. But they are working on it? Or what do you think?

Does Mordhau have all these 100 people running in a enormous world, with item databases, AI, persistence and literally [INSERT MO FEATURE HERE]?

Mortal was made with a lot of things in mind, Mordhau just had to be a good melee death match game with good fighting in it. B-B-B-BUT IT HAS RANGED WEAPONS COMBAT TACKED ON TOP!



You do not think adding things to combat that make this harder or impossible is a better way to go about it? Some sort... of... delay, that would let you feint people into blocking early so that you could get a hit in?

Rather than error 404 argument not found [DEFAULT;RESPONSE]:Remove 360 blocking, Beep boop. ?
XD carebears giving combat advice and saying is stupid to want to fix AS SOON AS POSSIBLE 360 blocking problem in PVP game
 

bbihah

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XD carebears giving combat advice and saying is stupid to want to fix AS SOON AS POSSIBLE 360 blocking problem in PVP game
You are not very constructive. My idea to fixing people having an easy time blocking is through mechanics demanding skill from both attacker and defender. What is yours? development working backwards so we can all have that AUTHENTIC Mo1 sliding, phase shifting interdimensional combat?

Check 0:51 to 60 seconds in the video you linked. The exact same prediction issue as in mo1. With your "solution" of delete every sign of progress they'd be both just swinging wildly at each others backs, as they are both at each others backs at the same time. This is a common occurrence in Mo1.



Also It is very funny you call me a carebear. How many server wars did you win again?
Probably less than me.

The north won the war.
 

Livingshade

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You are not very constructive. My idea to fixing people having an easy time blocking is through mechanics demanding skill from both attacker and defender. What is yours? development working backwards so we can all have that AUTHENTIC Mo1 sliding, phase shifting interdimensional combat?

Check 0:51 to 60 seconds in the video you linked. The exact same prediction issue as in mo1. With your "solution" of delete every sign of progress they'd be both just swinging wildly at each others backs, as they are both at each others backs at the same time. This is a common occurrence in Mo1.



Also It is very funny you call me a carebear. How many server wars did you win again?
Probably less than me.

The north won the war.
WHY ARE YOU SO BINARY you can have NON SLIDING PREDICTION combat without 360 BLOCKING if you think 360 blocking is anyway GOOD for GAME you are WRONG and SERVER WAR i do not believe you fought 1v50s BY YOURSELF maybe you sit in BACK and let others fight while you complain about PING
 

bbihah

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WHY ARE YOU SO BINARY you can have NON SLIDING PREDICTION combat without 360 BLOCKING if you think 360 blocking is anyway GOOD for GAME you are WRONG and SERVER WAR i do not believe you fought 1v50s BY YOURSELF maybe you sit in BACK and let others fight while you complain about PING
10+ years of MO development says otherwise.

The fact you are still stuck on 360 blocking being the problem and not the fact that the combat gameplay contains only Charging attacks, blocking, perfect blocking/parry and counter. With only one of those mechanics having any sort of semblance of a restriction is getting a bit worrying.

Is it the fact that blocking is easy to do in general that is the problem or is it 360 blocking? which one is it?
 
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