Clades and their Specialties.

Phen

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Im reiliterating what the post is with some pictures. Judge as you like, this isn't what i normally do, although i feel it will help show what i'm talking about better.

Here's an idea on how to utilize the Clade Gifts to create an fair gameplay with stats. Ideally creating a baseline stat cap for each attribute. Maxing a particular stat would become obtainable through potions, min/maxing, rings, amulets, ect.. Hopefully this could allow players to play by lore and not feel gimped due to stats being unachievable. I'll be going over The Clade Tree and how stats and abilities could be used for balancing. While talking about a few unbalances that could make the Clades specialized against one another, also few of the Clades lores that have already been posted on the Mortal Online 2 Website to used as my examples for why I choose particular Clades.



Example:1
Main Clade Human: (Red)
*Main Tree for Humans are bottom of Clade point tree.

Sub Clade (1) Sadoin: (Light Green)
*Left side of the Clade point tree.

Sub Clade (2) Kallidarian: (Dark Green)
*Right side of the Clade point tree.

CladePointsystem.png
Example1

By the Example 1 above, building a Human, Sadoin, Kallidarian, would look similar to how they have it looking now. Each area would change depending on what Clade and Sub Clades you pick. In total creating 220 different places to put Clade points. Then showing to the right is the gifts you obtain by selecting each Clades Tree.

Example 2:
Main Clade: Alvarian. ( Red )
Sub Clades: Veela, Veela. ( Both Greens mixed)
PureBreedCladePointExample.png

Above I'm showing a pure breed of a Alvarian Veela's. Instead of keeping one of the Clade Tree, the pure Clade would get a bonus Gifts from the start and less Clade points over all. Ideally, because the Clade is a pure breed they get some benefits sooner than others while missing out on other opportunities in a mixed Clade.


Example 2.1:
Main Clade: Alvarian. ( Red )
Sub Clade (1) Veela: ( Light Green)
Sub Clade (2) Veela: ( Dark Green )


Cladepointss.png


Example 2.1 would be keeping it the same as the Human side, with a slight difference in which Clade Points you can put into. By not removing the Clade Tree for the pure breed effect, it would seem that the Clade Point Selection should at least change because of it being they are the same Sub Clade. To prevent over stacking of bonuses and not pushing any one Clade to have a meta feeling.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Below here are the the Attributes, Statistics and Gifts my Clade has during alpha. You can see where some of the Gifts stay things like size up +1, HP up, Stat Caps Up, ect.. Which does affect the Stats of the your Clade, as well as the statistics. Some of these aren't test able during alpha so I am short on some information to validate everything. Though based off what Ive seen with the stats, combat points, clade points, gifts, ect, I feel each Clade could reach a particular stats baseline cap if the Clade points and Clades ability to min max are balanced with the ideal stat cap per stat.

CharStats.png
statisticsmo2alpha.png
CladeGifts.png



For the Gifts, each directly affects your stats and other futures of your Clade. If take the idea of a baseline stats for each stats. Below i'll give some numbers of what im talking about, though these numbers do not represent anything in the game, simply place holders for the topic.

Some examples.

Strength Capped at 110 ( General Physical Damage / Carry Weight )
Dexterity Capped at 125 ( Stam pool / Max Speed )
Psyche Capped at 100 ( Magical Defence / HP )
Intelligents Capped at 110 ( General Magic Damage / Personal Awareness (Thieves!! ) )
Constitution Capped at 80 ( HP / Carry Weight )

Those would be some baselines, then each clade would be starting with 10 points in each of these areas. As they play and build up, the stats will naturally cap on their own as attribute points run out. Then a player could min max to find either Clades standard min max stats. Once a player has determined if that build works for them or not, they can then choose to min max more by utilizing gear, potions, foods, enchanted armors, jewelry, clade point system and such to reach the baseline state cap. By doing this a Clade by have some faults similar to how weight affects stats by level of health. Using a pure breed Veela would then have the chance to lose there max capped speed for max capped strength if they choose. For then a set of stats may be called meta, but not a particular Clade. ( Notice im not putting attribute points per Clade down as it would take a lot of time and thought process to make everyone happy with each Clade. )

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Phen

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For the Gifts themselves, its fairly hard to go to in depth, as for some of the functions aren't working due to things already being capped in Alpha. That being said, using the Clade Gifts to manipulate your Clade to be better balanced in stats and gain special abilities via the Main Clade / Sub Clades you picked. The Clade's Main Ancestry could be a passive while the Sub Clades could be active abilities. Bringing in lore, and where i feel Sub Clades is where the unbalancing should lay. Not within the Clades stats.


The differences in Main Clade and Sub Clade, The War of Balancing.

Being that the main Clades aren't the pure blood line according to lore, and each Clade has a Sub Clade which in turn can make a player a blood line of an ancestor. I suggest using the Ancestors as a passive ability that only the 4 Main Clades can have. Each very different but not super effective to combat or crafting. Things like Night Vision / Dodging ( Alvarian ), Better Hearing / Sight ( Ohgmiers ), Riding / Swimming / Jumping ( Thursars ), Group Fight Buffs / Natural Defences ( Tindremers ). These are mostly based off the lore. Alvarians Sheevas live in Caves, Ohgmiers on the high mountains wery of Tindrem's Empire ( Also highly intelligent crafter/builders ), Thursars being war babies they learned to escape from Tindrem Armies, Tindremers fight in large numbers to overwhelm their opponents. Those are some ideas i would use for passive abilities for Main Clades.

While the Sub Clades have a good amount of lore and enough to go into some depth. I will just use a few of them as examples in this war of balancing. One of which being Veela Sheeva and Veela pure breed, another following suit to the Human example 1 above, last a view of Thursars as they are guaranteed to be a mixed breed.

The Sheaves are known for living underground in caves, while the Veela are jungle roamers. If we put them as pure breeds in their respects, the pure breed sheevas would have better Main traits for its Night Vision side of the Ancestors while the pure blood Veela would get better Dodging abilities ( Sheeva = Old dead walking and using mana to see better, Veela would get double tap dodge ability. )
Then the mix of the Alvarians would give a slight bonus to both, night vision and the dodge abilities but at a lesser effectiveness.

Oh the mighty options of the Human Clade! First off the Humans should have a general grouping buff for the lore shares the Tindrem Empire to be vast in numbers when it comes to war. That being a Main Clade trait, each Sub Clade would follow its own Sub Clades focus within the lore. The Sadoin "The meticulous dogmas of Sidoian society have resulted in a racial inclination towards logic, reasoning, and sagacity. Despite their intellectual skills, they’re a powerful people who value raw strength and endurance over physical agility." Right out of the Lore, they are psyche based Clades with a liking to raw strength. This could give these players better use of stamina when using weapons in both hands. Giving them a nice trait to use 2 swords or Shield/Sword with less of a stamina penalty when attacking / blocking. As for the Kallidarian, " The harsh conditions of this northern realm have fostered a tall and physically strong race in the Kallards. Though not as physically or mentally dextrous as other races they have a strength of will that is unmatched. " Boom baby! This Sub Clade has the ability of sustainability, could have ability to use a "harden" skill to protect themselves from elements and physical damage while getting a small weather buff that protects them in the cold ( This cold protection would be the same for heat with the Sarducans).
From this idea, lots of different path ways for players to pick from, while giving a player the ability to role play as without being grimped by stats.

War babies.... Well as they are... I feel these guys should inherently hate everything about Tindrem and those who don't accept their kinda for being different. Using the example off the humans, the human Sub Clade that is chosen could be boosted while using the Thrursars. As they are outcasts to everyone, and were only used and created for work. They deserve a bump from the Sub Clade to show what breed they stemmed from. I'll use Khurites as the Sub Clade, Khurites I would suggest have lesser issues using mounts with lower skills ,while be able to utilize an ability that hold their breath or controls breathing for a period of time stabilizing the bow and Clade movement on the mount.. Mixed with the Thrusars they would get a longer controlled breathing and would have additional stamina when using a mount. Then brings in the Main Clade passive ability, which would be survival skills are learned when your born as your ancestors have been doing such for generations. NOTE: If a human was made as a pure Khurite, than that pure breed would have similar controlled breather, additional stamina, and lesser needed skill points for riding than the Thursars.



Overall I think this could be a fun way for everyone to be whatever Clade they want to and use them within the lore that is placed without consistent rerolls. Using lore has been a thing for SV in the past and you have to learn romers through bits and pieces of information. Trying to bring light to the lore and place it in the game, feels like each Clade would have its way of living from the start. Also if you didn't see the unbalanced in the above text. Clades like Sarducan and Kallidarian have buffs for cold and warm weather while the others wouldn't, or Khurites having special mount abilities while no other Clade does. As these ideas are taken from the lore I've read, if I missed something that could make the lore placed better in the game, please let me know in the comments, if it seems like it would fit nicely and not push any one Clade or unbalance the game. I would love to add it into this if anyone has suggestions. Criticism is welcomed to! This is just an idea after all!!

-Phen

P.S. Will be back to edit, I got hungry making this.....
 
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Slammington Unchained

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For the Gifts themselves, its fairly hard to go to in depth, as for some of the functions aren't working due to things already being capped in Alpha. That being said, using the Clade Gifts to manipulate your Clade to be better balanced in stats and gain special abilities via the Main Clade / Sub Clades you picked. The Clade's Main Ancestry could be a passive while the Sub Clades could be active abilities. Bringing in lore, and where i feel Sub Clades is where the unbalancing should lay. Not within the Clades stats.


The differences in Main Clade and Sub Clade, The War of Balancing.

Being that the main Clades aren't the pure blood line according to lore, and each Clade has a Sub Clade which in turn can make a player a blood line of an ancestor. I suggest using the Ancestors as a passive ability that only the 4 Main Clades can have. Each very different but not super effective to combat or crafting. Things like Night Vision / Dodging ( Alvarian ), Better Hearing / Sight ( Ohgmiers ), Riding / Swimming / Jumping ( Thursars ), Group Fight Buffs / Natural Defences ( Tindremers ). These are mostly based off the lore. Alvarians Sheevas live in Caves, Ohgmiers on the high mountains wery of Tindrem's Empire ( Also highly intelligent crafter/builders ), Thursars being war babies they learned to escape from Tindrem Armies, Tindremers fight in large numbers to overwhelm their opponents. Those are some ideas i would use for passive abilities for Main Clades.

While the Sub Clades have a good amount of lore and enough to go into some depth. I will just use a few of them as examples in this war of balancing. One of which being Veela Sheeva and Veela pure breed, another following suit to the Human example 1 above, last a view of Thursars as they are guaranteed to be a mixed breed.

The Sheaves are known for living underground in caves, while the Veela are jungle roamers. If we put them as pure breeds in their respects, the pure breed sheevas would have better Main traits for its Night Vision side of the Ancestors while the pure blood Veela would get better Dodging abilities ( Sheeva = Old dead walking and using mana to see better, Veela would get double tap dodge ability. )
Then the mix of the Alvarians would give a slight bonus to both, night vision and the dodge abilities but at a lesser effectiveness.

Oh the mighty options of the Human Clade! First off the Humans should have a general grouping buff for the lore shares the Tindrem Empire to be vast in numbers when it comes to war. That being a Main Clade trait, each Sub Clade would follow its own Sub Clades focus within the lore. The Sadoin "The meticulous dogmas of Sidoian society have resulted in a racial inclination towards logic, reasoning, and sagacity. Despite their intellectual skills, they’re a powerful people who value raw strength and endurance over physical agility." Right out of the Lore, they are psyche based Clades with a liking to raw strength. This could give these players better use of stamina when using weapons in both hands. Giving them a nice trait to use 2 swords or Shield/Sword with less of a stamina penalty when attacking / blocking. As for the Kallidarian, " The harsh conditions of this northern realm have fostered a tall and physically strong race in the Kallards. Though not as physically or mentally dextrous as other races they have a strength of will that is unmatched. " Boom baby! This Sub Clade has the ability of sustainability, could have ability to use a "harden" skill to protect themselves from elements and physical damage while getting a small weather buff that protects them in the cold ( This cold protection would be the same for heat with the Sarducans).
From this idea, lots of different path ways for players to pick from, while giving a player the ability to role play as without being grimped by stats.

War babies.... Well as they are... I feel these guys should inherently hate everything about Tindrem and those who don't accept their kinda for being different. Using the example off the humans, the human Sub Clade that is chosen could be boosted while using the Thrursars. As they are outcasts to everyone, and were only used and created for work. They deserve a bump from the Sub Clade to show what breed they stemmed from. I'll use Khurites as the Sub Clade, Khurites I would suggest have lesser issues using mounts with lower skills ,while be able to utilize an ability that hold their breath or controls breathing for a period of time stabilizing the bow and Clade movement on the mount.. Mixed with the Thrusars they would get a longer controlled breathing and would have additional stamina when using a mount. Then brings in the Main Clade passive ability, which would be survival skills are learned when your born as your ancestors have been doing such for generations. NOTE: If a human was made as a pure Khurite, than that pure breed would have similar controlled breather, additional stamina, and lesser needed skill points for riding than the Thursars.



Overall I think this could be a fun way for everyone to be whatever Clade they want to and use them within the lore that is placed without consistent rerolls. Using lore has been a thing for SV in the past and you have to learn romers through bits and pieces of information. Trying to bring light to the lore and place it in the game, feels like each Clade would have its way of living from the start. Also if you didn't see the unbalanced in the above text. Clades like Sarducan and Kallidarian have buffs for cold and warm weather while the others wouldn't, or Khurites having special mount abilities while no other Clade does. As these ideas are taken from the lore I've read, if I missed something that could make the lore placed better in the game, please let me know in the comments, if it seems like it would fit nicely and not push any one Clade or unbalance the game. I would love to add it into this if anyone has suggestions. Criticism is welcomed to! This is just an idea after all!!

-Phen

P.S. Will be back to edit, I got hungry making this.....
Hello sir,

The content here is extremely well written as I have read through it and I agree with it full heartily. However, could you please summarize it to highlight the most important points? I feel that summaries can help reach a broader audience so you can receive better feedback.

Regards,
Slammington Chained
 
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Rhias

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In my opinion there shouldn't be one tree for all humans, but something mixed depending on race.

I would love to see the clade gift system as a goodie on top that makes every race unique, but doesn't interfere that much with balance.
Some stuff I have in mind: +10% mining or woodcutting speed, +10% pet breeding success chance, +10% increased taming chance,...
Stuff like that that is not "balance breaking" but saves some time in some areas.
 

Phen

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In my opinion there shouldn't be one tree for all humans, but something mixed depending on race.
This is brought up under SubClades. As Humans are a Main Clade they have a single Tree, same with Thrusars, Alvarian ect.. while the SubClade have their own, each type of Main Clade and Sub Clade will be separated into their own trees / abilities / bonuses. In turn making a balance in the world when some Clades benefit better in particular areas. Also known as the unbalance that brings a unique value to each Clade choices. While one Clade may have heat resistance another would have cold.

I like that you brought up percentages. The only thing is that I see this portion of the game to be lore focused. Which sadly, I couldnt figure good numbers nor make it sound balanced based off the lore. Though I was able to get simple ideas of what could be based on general information in the lores. ( I'll try to add percentages when transferring to suggestions page. )

When talking percentages, I worried valuables that revolve around those kind of Clades would be targets by the Clade they are not by the skills they possess. While I say this, refreshing to the Sarducan Clade example. That would be a percentage of some sort to make it easy to balance, though the numbers would be low like you mentioned, around 10-15%. Clade targeting due to Clade bonuses doesnt feel like it flows with the lore. Humans Clades would all be gathering / extracting / butchery bonuses than with a abilities based on their Sub Clade. Which works, just makes Humans feel weak via lore. Only becuase they are the largest civilization, they deserve more than just some resource traits, this is all my opinion of course.
 

Phen

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Hello sir,

The content here is extremely well written as I have read through it and I agree with it full heartily. However, could you please summarize it to highlight the most important points? I feel that summaries can help reach a broader audience so you can receive better feedback.

Regards,
Slammington Chained
You read it!...-smh- NO F'N WAY!!

Thank you kind Sir! I'll try and make a cleaner version in suggestion/feedback once I gather others thoughts. I'll start with a summary, honestly never did something this in depth. I greatly appreciate your advice.
 

Slammington Unchained

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You read it!...-smh- NO F'N WAY!!

Thank you kind Sir! I'll try and make a cleaner version in suggestion/feedback once I gather others thoughts. I'll start with a summary, honestly never did something this in depth. I greatly appreciate your advice.
Yes, I definitely read it and am in no way coerced into saying so by certain people. You're welcome for the advice, after all, constructive feedback is what this forum is all about.

Regards,
Slammington Chained
 
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Phen

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Yes, I definitely read it and am in no way coerced into saying so by certain people. You're welcome for the advice, after all, constructive feedback is what this forum is all about.

Regards,
Slammington Chained
Gave me some encouragement on creating some in depth suggestions for sure.

Feedback will need some work as it's fairly hard to test what they know are bugs and what we find as possible new bugs.
Over time I think I'll figure out whats on the bug list and whats not. Though finding bugs isn't my thing, they seem to find me a lot in games....
 

bbihah

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Are the images broken for only me?
Makes it really hard to understand exactly what it is you are saying.

I'll reserve judgement until I can actually read all of it and get my head around what it is you are suggesting.



Petty thing I noticed is you missed attribute impact on equipment weight.
 

Phen

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Petty thing I noticed is you missed attribute impact on equipment weight.
Petty?
Be nicer maybe? Idk why the images are broken they were fine yesterday when this was posted. I'll re input images.

Thanks for reading.

-Phen
 

bbihah

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Petty as in, its a really petty/small/pointless thing of ME to complain about/point out. ^^


Edit; can also see the images fine now. Imma give it a thorough read now.

Edit 2; Thing that instantly pop out at me is that subclade impacting the clade gift depending on where you put it will give star vault 25* different human+ 25* thursar clade gift combos to balance vs 4 alvarin and 4 oghmir ones. Im not saying its undoable, but its a lot of balancing.

With the suggested addition of the stat caps being related to race selection rather than directly by clade selection, like it is now and was in mo1 it deals with the issues I have with current/mo1 system. We'd still have min maxers and you'd still get people wanting to reroll different races and maybe reroll to get other clade gifts. But it wont be nearly as extreme as it is currently with, "Oh you selected tindremene or pure sarducaan?" "yes?" "sorry, you gotta reroll if you want to actually be have decent at X thing". If you gotta reroll your clade gifts and this is possible(even if costly, time consuming or elaborate) and thats what really limited what your character can do inside of the race selection, then its a lot less of an issue. Step in the right direction in my opinion.

The idea is nice though, and not being 100% sure how they are planning to go about adding systems and balancing systems this time around is making me a bit undecisive on what kind of suggestions would be good suggestions and bad suggestions. Are they going to go the old route and just bravely thrust big systems in, let them mostly settle on their own with people having to deal with how it turns out and then possibly balance it(balance part didnt happen last time, which its pretty easy to see why). Or are they going to be more methodical and do small additions all the time?

I think their previous strategy MIGHT work better this time around since they have access to more man hours to work on each system as well as work on them after the system is out or when its in testing.
 
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Phen

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Petty as in, its a really petty/small/pointless thing of ME to complain about/point out. ^^


Edit; can also see the images fine now. Imma give it a thorough read now.

Edit 2; Thing that instantly pop out at me is that subclade impacting the clade gift depending on where you put it will give star vault 25* different human+ 25* thursar clade gift combos to balance vs 4 alvarin and 4 oghmir ones. Im not saying its undoable, but its a lot of balancing.

With the suggested addition of the stat caps being related to race selection rather than directly by clade selection, like it is now and was in mo1 it deals with the issues I have with current/mo1 system. We'd still have min maxers and you'd still get people wanting to reroll different races and maybe reroll to get other clade gifts. But it wont be nearly as extreme as it is currently with, "Oh you selected tindremene or pure sarducaan?" "yes?" "sorry, you gotta reroll if you want to actually be have decent at X thing". If you gotta reroll your clade gifts and this is possible(even if costly, time consuming or elaborate) and thats what really limited what your character can do inside of the race selection, then its a lot less of an issue. Step in the right direction in my opinion.

The idea is nice though, and not being 100% sure how they are planning to go about adding systems and balancing systems this time around is making me a bit undecisive on what kind of suggestions would be good suggestions and bad suggestions. Are they going to go the old route and just bravely thrust big systems in, let them mostly settle on their own with people having to deal with how it turns out and then possibly balance it(balance part didnt happen last time, which its pretty easy to see why). Or are they going to be more methodical and do small additions all the time?

I think their previous strategy MIGHT work better this time around since they have access to more man hours to work on each system as well as work on them after the system is out or when its in testing.
I still dont know where you got those kind of numbers. Humans = 1 than 5 subclades total 6 different Clades. Where did you get 25? Thursars are even less cuase they have a blocked SubClade due to their Main Clade. If your referencing the mixes of the Clades ( btw Clades are Races ), then yes you have 30 total mixes to choose from. Though if theres a baseline for all capped stats. Then any player could be any Clade and not deal with meta Clades. They would be looking at the inherited abilities and lore at the start to pick their Clade, not using the best stats for min maxing. As said before, if we are all capped in each area, then the balance is small by ensuring all Clades can reach the max stat cap in any attribute that choose. Not forcing you to restart cuase of bad stats, though one may want heat resistance so they would reroll for that bonus, but rerolling for stats needs to go away some how.
 

bbihah

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well since two of the clades can be changed. thats 2 positions for 5 different clades. That means its a permutation of 2 positions and 5 numbers. That means 25 different outcomes.

And if they are going to keep the stat caps tied to each out of 4 clade selections(like mo1,unlike your suggestion), they have to keep balancing 70 different stat caps, as well, just for humans alone.
 
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