Clades and their Specialties.

[Phen]

As a player of lore, I'm wondering how or what you guys think these of abilities / specialized skills (Clade Tree Stuff).

Seeing humans having just one Clade tree, will this mean theres only 4 Clade trees all together? Humans, Oghmiers, Alvarians and Thursars being the main races, could this mean that each sub race will have it's own set of Clade trees depending on which sub clade you choose?

Example:
Main Clade Human:
*Main Tree for Humans are bottom of Clade point tree.

Sub Clade (1) Sadoin:
*Left side of the Clade point tree.

Sub Clade (2) Kallidarian:
*Right side of the Clade point tree.

Example 2:
Main Clade: Alvarian. ( Botton)
Sub Clades: Veela, Veela. ( Left and Right, or one on top. )

What do you guys think of having each Clade choice changing the outcome of the Clade Tree itself? By mixing races you get different choices in the Clade tree. Or even using the same Sub Clade like Veela Veela, giving possibly less Clade points overall in exchange for different stats due to being "pure" breed?

Just been wondering what everyone thinks of Clade Point System and what they may like to see in the future. I understand this is a work in progress, just thought I'd open the topic for conversation.

-Phen

 

[bbihah]

-Phen

Would be a pain to balance that many different variations in the clade trees, people would find the min max and people would have to reroll to get to it, especially if its a big difference between that and someone just picking something that fits.


IMO they could to everyone's benefit make race and race mixture play more role in only appearance and leave the clade stuff for the entire race(as it is right now to my understanding, have not bothered too much looking into clade gifts how they work right now as i have not rolled multiple chars).

If they wanted to do more permanent selections at char selection, they could have you select your immediate family genetics and your background and just have it impact starting stats, starting skills(unlocked and maybe little higher starting skill) and maybe starting reputation with cities but leave the stat caps tied to the generic race Human, Oghmir, Alvarin and Thursar. Then screwing up in character select wont force you to reroll down the road, unless you are tempted away to a different major race.

Clade things being the same within the major race could be explained off as the char select races are your parents direct apparent ancestry while the clade could be the distant genetics and traits that dont impact your appearance, don't make much sense that you unlock it after char select though, but w/e I guess.

Would be easier to balance between the races without all the extra parameters.


IMO having such a huge difference inside of a race from a encounter perspective is not very intuitive. You can most of the time distinguish between alvarin, oghmir, and at least thursar or human. Thursar and human in armor can be hard to tell a difference between but if its an obvious human or thursar but he is not so big, then its probably a normal human and not a thursar. So when you encounter someone, you can tell its an alvarin, thursar or oghmir pretty easy and you can have a slight hint of what his character is capable off. Meanwhile if you run into a specific race, say thursar, its very hard to tell what he is capable of as the clades do make a big difference, at least it does if they are doing the mo1 system all over again. there is a big difference between a 107? max dex thursar/khurite and a 80? max dex thursar/kallard. Granted you might pick up on the difference in height, but it isnt that big.



Long Tldr;
Dont know exactly how the clade gift system works right now or is planned in the immediate future but personally think it should stay within the race categories(Human, Alvarin, Thursar, Oghmir) and not be different depending on clade selections in the Char select.

Basically make Char select have no permanent choices and instead have char background for selecting starting (not caps) stats and skills. Fewer differences = less min maxing = less being stuck with a crap character. Races will still be different, so people would still min max the general race selection because of different stat caps and clade gifts but leaves lot less chance of new players selecting something permanently completely trash.



Short Tldr; Permanent char select choice gimpness = bad(in my opinion)

 

[Eldrath]

The way I see it the clade gifts could be a way to provide long-term balance to the races.

As i understand the plan there is gonna be big differences like night vision, social isolation etc. between the "main" clades. If one of those proves to drastic, instead of gimping it SV can simply make everyone else clade gifts better till a good balance is archived.

The current tree is a placeholder, but probably shows the direction. You can sort off arrange you character towards "magic", "quickness" and "strength. Bit basic really. I´d like to social benefits (faction standing, flags, criminal ratings) and crafting stuff instead of just straight attribute increases.

 

[bbihah]

Literally made two TLDRs for you.

 

[Phen]

@bbihah
This idea wouldn't gimmp any race. It would push for reach Clade to have it's own ways to preform. Possibly making each Clade have a magic, fighting and crafting chance. Like how they want each race to have reputation within Empires and colonies. It's not ment to be fair in every aspect, but personaliztion will make the game way more interesting.

The way MO1 is, well doesnt compair to MO2 and I wont fall backwards talking about the future of this game. That said, @Eldrath is right when it comes to balancing. Just keep making tweeks untill they all seems fair.

The Clades have always seemed straight forward to me ( based on lore). I would like to see less meta in the Clades. Just cuase I love the Veela Veela life style doesnt mean I should have to be a speedster to be effective. To fix this I think the Clade gifts can come into play. Not just the standard min / max of a Clades stats. If the Clade system is left similar to this than every one would push for min maxing, they havent even touched into night vision or Clade abilities. Which by all means, night vision for Sheeva and Blairn? ( I dont recall atm ) makes them "broken".. not according to lore though, they are cave dwellers, and crafters.

So if one goes with Alvarians and picks pure Veela veela, they would NOT get night vision due to not being cave dwellers, unlike a Veela sheeva would have slight night vision capabilities, and full Sheeva sheeva would have standard night vision.

That's all I'm saying. Not everything will be balanced but if you want max anything, I think the Clades should get stats to max not the start of the game when no one knows about the lore.

 

[bbihah]

Well i'm not saying your idea would gimp any race, but i'm saying, if they are going the mo1 route + an additional layer of race with clade specific things its going to be just as broken as Mo1 was, you cant pick X clade because its just straight up worse than others *Ahem* Tindremene *Ahem* because its stat caps are just not good, or rather it does nothing well. Which almost always gets beaten by doing some things bad and some things great.

If The entire alvarin race(and the other ones too) had a generic clade gift rather than one specific to what clade you put in what slot in character creation and the entire alvarin race had the same stat caps rather than it being dependent on the mix. Then it would be 100% down to the clade gift mechanic's content(and what you decide to plop your attributes into) if it will give you the option to go less speedy for more other things and it would make it a 2 factor(race+clade gift tree) versus 2x3(cladegift+race X Oghmir, Human, Thursar) balancing rather than..... a vastly larger number.


Maybe making it a little bit simpler this time around would avoid some of the pitfalls of the mo1 character creation.


I could be wrong though. I liked the premise of mo1 character creation I like the vast options, but seeing as not much was done to it over the years, will they do anything this time around once the meta settles? It seems like everyone is just going to be the same 3(or 4 when fatties became a thing) race combinations if the races and their stat caps remain how it was in mo1. The splitting up of crafting and combat skill caps might have a small impact on this though, but IMO the clades should be more about aesthetic/lore than anything. I can't count how many newbies I had to tell their character build was permanently gimped because of their clade selections and that they would have to remake their chars to actually get their stats up higher.

 

[Phen]

I'm so confused. You liked how to it was? Like to be the fastest you must pick Veela veela 26? Which I couldnt find anywhere in the lore that say one Clade is faster than another.

I'm just pointing out that every main Clade should be fair without anyone needing to be a particular Clade, just to have a particular stat maxed, just doesnt flow well imo.

If it stays as it was Veela Veela will run a muck, the new system makes it so much easier to run. Run fight run, isnt that the Veela way?

I propose removing meta from Clades is all. Giving every Clade and sub race their own way of living. Not purely based on stats at the character creation.

P.S. @bbihah I have played with the Clade stuff and it has does have a huge change on stats, hp, maybe stat caps ( we are all capped atm it's hard to know.) , and buffs. Buffs alone have a damage reduction and damage increase for humans. That kinda shows how the balance might be uneven, although it does give each player a chance to build a more specialized char. With all stats capped it doesnt show much, but 176 to 197 health is enough to show how effective the Clade can be.

 

[bbihah]

I'm so confused. You liked how to it was? Like to be the fastest you must pick Veela veela 26? Which I couldnt find anywhere in the lore that say one Clade is faster than another.

No, read what I wrote. I liked the premise of how the system was in Mo1, with big differences between the races, but keeping it all balanced is more work than its worth. The way it played out in practice was not good at all. I'm saying they should probably work on bringing the variables required for balancing down by making things simple. do we really need 70 different stat caps for the human race alone? If they are bringing it down to 5 races with no sub selections there are still 5 different stat caps for the human race. 2 for alvarin, 2 for ogh, another 5 for thursar. This doesnt even touch on the fact that we have limited attribute points.

It does mention in the lore about races and clade's characteristics, a little bit.

I'm just pointing out that every main Clade should be fair without anyone needing to be a particular Clade, just to have a particular stat maxed, just doesnt flow well imo.

Much easier to balance 4 different clade gift sets with their racial stat caps than it is to balance 125 different human clade gift combinations, 8 different Alvarin, 8 different Oghmir and 125 different thursar with their stat caps. Like you suggested.

If they are planning one set of clade gift per main clade then thats harder, but still managable, but with different stat caps there is a lot of work.

If it stays as it was Veela Veela will run a muck, the new system makes it so much easier to run. Run fight run, isnt that the Veela way?

Speed will always be one of the most useful stats, its also one of the factors that give the net code a run for its money. Life is feudal made it quite apparent that if everyone has the same movement speed, it gets really hard to chase someone down. So yes, one race being faster than another will make this even harder. They'd either have to make everyone the same speed or find some other solution if they'd want to balance this. Mobility is always a really hard thing to balance in games, regardless of genre.

I propose removing meta from Clades is all. Giving every Clade and sub race their own way of living. Not purely based on stats at the character creation.

Isn't this exactly what I said? Make clade selection more about aesthetics and get rid of the newbie traps. A deep enough Clave gift mechanic that can be respecced(hard or easy doesnt matter to an extent vs rerolling) will be much better on the newer players and get rid of the "Oh they changed clade stats, guess im going to have to reroll my entire character now". Then race being the only thing if they nerf it and people feel the need to reroll.

P.S. @bbihah I have played with the Clade stuff and it has does have a huge change on stats, hp, maybe stat caps ( we are all capped atm it's hard to know.) , and buffs. Buffs alone have a damage reduction and damage increase for humans. That kinda shows how the balance might be uneven, although it does give each player a chance to build a more specialized char. With all stats capped it doesnt show much, but 176 to 197 health is enough to show how effective the Clade can be.

Not sure what to think of the system as im not 100% sure how it is planned to be further down the line.

Are we going to get keep the Clade gifts per race? Per clade selection? Only main clade selection?

 

[Phen]

Short Tldr; Permanent char select choice gimpness = bad(in my opinion)

^ This is what I was confused about..

Then my point of speed, is that not one clade should be able to reach the stat cap, rather all clades could by focusing points and using proper gear associated with the stat your focusing. Never can someone down the ability of speed when it comes to gaming..

As for your impossible to answer questions, as I'm only an alpha tester not a dev... From what was said through the QnA, each Clade will have their own gifts. Which is why I come to the question on what would everyone like to see?

Myself. Yes... lots of crazy possibilities for each Clade. Even if it takes a Veela veela 5 amazing growth potions and a couple rings to reach max in game stat for strength. I'd like to see that kind of depth in the Clades.

Then everyone can min max however they feel with any Clade. With the bonus of whatever their Clades ancestors had. In turn the only unbalancing would be the specialized inherent ability from their main Clade. All of which should be talked about in the lore of your Clade before you pick anyways.

As for the Clades/Sub-Clades themselves, when I counted.
Humans 1 main Clade, 5 Sub-Clades; Alvarians 1 Main Clade, 2 Sub-Clades; Oghmiers 1 Main Clade, 2 Sub-Clades; War babies ( Thursars 1 Main Clade, No Sub-Clade ( Sub-Clades are humans, assuming they would recieve sub class blocked like before, though still receiving some Gifts in place.).

So I count Clades and Sub Clades 13 in total. Then if you go about it as I suggested, mixing the Sub-Clades based on pure bloodlines. 9 more Clade options would be added making a total of 22. Now the tree itself has 3 starting points, each having 10 total to select from. That would make a total of 220 Clade gifts they would have to create and balance with stats.

Which I havent played a bazillion games, but I think WoW has more to balance than what I'm offering. Plus these Clades gift could benefit FF vs MF, by simply giving a few races riding abilities while others may have dismounted abilities. Causing an unbalance for every Clade, then it comes to stats balancing to create a fair game play.

Not saying this would be easy work, but the depth would be awesome. Any Clade could do anything if they set their heart to it. Even if it cost them some stats, I'm sure people would adapt their Clade focused max stat(s) even if they had other disadvantages becuase of the route they took. I feel people who want to try speed wouldnt restart as much, I think they would learn how to make themselves that fast before restarting. Then after all that work if it's not exactly what they want. Sure makes sense to restart. Though I feel most would find a good middle ground for the Clade they chose ( it's a lore thing.. Alvarians 4Life!). Whether they are fighters, crafters, gathers, everyone could achieve a base line max stat regardless of Clade. It could come with penalties becuase of you Clade choices, but at least everyone could be Mr.Speedy or Papa Pump.

 

[Eldrath]

We must also keep the one-character concept in mind. With the old system me rolling a veela/sheevra would make it impossible to play an effective MA. That role would be forever out of reach (assuming low-str shortbows will be not as effective as high-str ones). Other way around for Thursar mages.

Should the new system completely compensate for that? Maybe the mechanics should not influence how effective you can be in any given profession?

 

[Phen]

We must also keep the one-character concept in mind. With the old system me rolling a veela/sheevra would make it impossible to play an effective MA. That role would be forever out of reach (assuming low-str shortbows will be not as effective as high-str ones). Other way around for Thursar mages.

Should the new system completely compensate for that? Maybe the mechanics should not influence how effective you can be in any given profession?

I wouldnt say completely compensate, though enough to where regardless of your choice of Clade. You could do anything if the right work is done to your character.

 

[bbihah]

Still seems like an absolute mess to balance, i'm just speaking from experience that it is a smarter choice to atleast start extremely simple and go from there(sort of what we got now, so we are on track I hope). instead of the mo1 method of just adding all the things at once and then spending 10+ years ignoring it because it would take too much work to fix.

 

[Zbuciorn]

With just one character per account the possibility of recreating your avatar ones or twice for free without loosing stats and items would let players to perfect their builds avoiding going for cookie cut all the time.

 

[Phen]

Still seems like an absolute mess to balance, i'm just speaking from experience that it is a smarter choice to atleast start extremely simple and go from there(sort of what we got now, so we are on track I hope). instead of the mo1 method of just adding all the things at once and then spending 10+ years ignoring it because it would take too much work to fix.

I believe this was an idea in MO1 and was never implimented due to the community rushing SV. We havent seen a 2nd Clade yet and with SV having 30 programmers / developers. They could easily make this suggestion happen.

As you say it would be a mess, although many many games balance more than 220 Skills vs Stats. It would just be another large improvement. Similar to wagons, never was it implimented in MO1, though Henrik said he wants them out before release due to how gathering has changed slightly.

This style of picking a Clade and deleting such Clade due to metas imo isnt fun. Though keeping the system too simple, I fear would cause a repeat on Clade metas. It would take a long time to learn if your Clade isnt perfect for you. Even though if you gave every Clade the ability to max cap a stat, I dont see where this would be unbalanced, if anything all Clades would be nearly the same overall with different stat caps based on Height, Weight, Gear, And Clade choice. In turn all Clades would be the same for stats just manipulate per Clade to show off their ancestors primary stats. The primary caps ( the ones we need when we create a character) would look different in each Clade. Although through the right foods, potions, gear, and magic a player could potentially reach any in game stat cap.

I think SV could pull this off. Especially with the depth of the other systems.

 

[bbihah]

With just one character per account the possibility of recreating your avatar ones or twice for free without loosing stats and items would let players to perfect their builds avoiding going for cookie cut all the time.

Sure, its a band aid fix but the entire issue is there are straight out "best builds" in the first place. Even more so when it becomes a thing you have to reroll to, even if it means you can do so without losing your character(eventually you will). With races being distinct between each other and with less variables to balance within the races is what we need to prevent having to remake a character all together, then that is a good thing to strive towards.

I believe this was an idea in MO1 and was never implimented due to the community rushing SV. We havent seen a 2nd Clade yet and with SV having 30 programmers / developers. They could easily make this suggestion happen.

As you say it would be a mess, although many many games balance more than 220 Skills vs Stats. It would just be another large improvement. Similar to wagons, never was it implimented in MO1, though Henrik said he wants them out before release due to how gathering has changed slightly.

This style of picking a Clade and deleting such Clade due to metas imo isnt fun. Though keeping the system too simple, I fear would cause a repeat on Clade metas. It would take a long time to learn if your Clade isnt perfect for you. Even though if you gave every Clade the ability to max cap a stat, I dont see where this would be unbalanced, if anything all Clades would be nearly the same overall with different stat caps based on Height, Weight, Gear, And Clade choice. In turn all Clades would be the same for stats just manipulate per Clade to show off their ancestors primary stats. The primary caps ( the ones we need when we create a character) would look different in each Clade. Although through the right foods, potions, gear, and magic a player could potentially reach any in game stat cap.

I think SV could pull this off. Especially with the depth of the other systems.

Programmers don't always make good designers though.
There is also a saying, What one programmer can do in one month, two programmers can do in two months.
Anything is better than what they had back then and i'm sure they can work on more systems at one time now. But if they are using the extra resources just to repeat mo1 mistakes and adding even more work on top of that, what is the point?

In mo1 the stat caps made some clade selections complete garbage and since we are apparently inheriting that system, we will have the same problem.
If all clades within a race had the same stats and clade gift tree then the balancing would only be between races which is a much smaller scale.

What I proposed is that clade selection just doesnt have any impact other than starting stats, starting skills and appearance. Not stat caps.
That way there are only 4 different stat caps to balance around, and 4 different clade gift trees to balance out rather than up to 625+different ones.

 

[Nenju]

ofc the current clade gifts are just examples but giving straight STATS is not optimal imo cuz whoever wanna min max is still gonna roll best race and and on top gets +stat bonus.

what i think might help is "special/racial" abilites be it passive or actives. like the "remove debuff" could be a semi long cooldown for a instant self purify?

 

[Phen]

Programmers don't always make good designers though.
There is also a saying, What one programmer can do in one month, two programmers can do in two months.

To this is sir! I say great job to SV for not letting programmers to do the main designing. Hints why they have 30 people on a team doing all sorts of projects, not one small thing at a time.

 

[Slammington Unchained]

Programmers don't always make good designers though.
There is also a saying, What one programmer can do in one month, two programmers can do in two months.

Are you criticizing the work of our Glorious Leader Sebastian?

 

[Sebastian Persson]

I am not a very good designer no.
But luckily most of the time I dont make these decisions in most cases we all have a meeting and come up with a good direction.

I find the clade stuff super interesting there are more stuff like this like..late game character building coming soon.

But ya this is alpha we are trying stuff out and most likely a lot of the clade stuff will change even for the human clade. This makes this type of threads super good for the development of the game.

 

[Slammington Unchained]

I am not a very good designer no.

Quit being humble. You are a great designer, and I know it.