Why Democratic Design is Killing MO2

[Sally]

Humans gravitate to what is easy over what is difficult when stakes are at play; in MO2, this is ego and loot. It is in our nature.

In turn, this means people will use builds that are easier than those that are harder.

This means that MORE people use what is easy or powerful, than use what is hard or weak.

People like easy, easy is comfortable.. They will DEFEND this comfort.

In turn, what happens?

Things that are broken and unfair end up being defended BECAUSE they are broken and unfair. Not only are they defended; they are defended ENMASSE, because most people have gravitated towards what is easiest. This results in a spiral effect, whereby what is broken becomes more and more broken; when what it really needs is a substantial nerf.

THIS is the problem with Mortal Online 2 at the moment; and it has been perfectly demonstrated by the recent Deathhand changes.

Deathhand is a skill that is overwhelmingly powerful; it is both EXTREMELY offensive, and EXTREMELY defensive AT THE SAME TIME. It allow mages, a class that should, by all rights, die in melee range; end up having an advantage in melee range. A melee should not have to fear a mage in melee range; to do so is to give mage no downsides.

Somehow, this overwhelmingly powerful skill has just had a 1.3-1.6% dps damage buff (when you look at the numbers); AND a substantial mana cost reduction.

HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN???

This game is stuck in a pattern where what is broken keeps getting more and more broken BECAUSE you keep listening to feedback by the numbers. When in reality, there are things being completely left behind and outright ignored; archery was one of those things (although the weapon abilities have made it slightly more tolerable).

DEATHHAND NEEDS A COMPLETE REWORK. IT IS NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE.

That is the truth; and it is lost in the sea of people defending what is easy.

STOP listening to the majority; it will spiral your game into MASSIVE imbalance.

A lot of stuff in your game is UNUSABLE because of this spiral effect you're trapped in.

The same issue applies to spam healing; BECAUSE THEY DO NOT LIKE DYING; because it is EASY AND POWERFUL; it is comfortable.. But it KILLS all build diversity in your game. Every fight ends in trying to overwhelm someone's heal loop; endless health regen mid combat. You quite literally cannot stop it, even with corrupt, because purify is so easy to access, and cheap to use.

YOU MUST CHANGE HOW YOU TAKE FEEDBACK, you are quite literally regressing the game, and things that should've been changed years ago are still lingering as persistent detractors to your game; and making it steadily worse by listening to the feedback of the majority.

 

[Emdash]

My only ingame experience with SALLY was when we were riding around Duli cuz someone wanted to show me something (someone who has since QUIT,) and we were riding by the water and someone peeked out, then went back under when they saw we had a few people. IT WAS SALLY.

Moral of the story: people's game play is different. I agree with one part, that the game is becoming more homogenized and I don't like it. Death hand tho hmm... p funny to reflect a death hand. Would be nice to keep it as a true dmg melee spell that was low damage (25~) more spammy, with heavy mana use. Not so much a get out of jail card but a pressure sustain sort of thing, and remove the ability to reflect it.

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

Spot on analysis. There are a lot of things like this in MO2 (Swords, 1H hammers, Earthquake, most magic, etc), but since this is focusing mainly on Death Hand, I'll talk about that.

Since all skills and mechanics were copy/paste from MO1, MO1 never allowed you to take damage during spell build-up without your spell charge being cancelled. This was balanced as a mage would have to plan out their positioning and stay out of range of melee or they would be killed. The mage builds were also very good at burst speeds, being able to out run fighters over short distances. This burst speed had a downside though as mages would be caught over long distances making them vulnerable given enough time and a 1v1 situation. Another mechanics that mages had in MO1 that helped balance them is that they had limited options to wear heavier armor with the mana regen penalty being extreme. Due to the endless screaming of mage mains, magic has become an ungodly amalgamation of incredibly unfair game-play as many of the systems that restricted there power.

Death Hand: Discussing the mechanics of just this skill. Any mechanic that deals damage and heals the user based on the damage dealt is extremely valuable and should have great limits to its use. The same mages screaming about Thursar life leech have no problems that their Death Hand has the same function, except there are no limits to Death Hands use.

Recap + Additions:
1) Cast Interrupt on damage. Removed in MO2
2) Burst/Distance mechanics on mage vs fighter play styles. Removed in MO2. All elf mages (which is the only mage you should play) have not only the highest speed, but also a larger stamina pool than most fighters.
3) Armor Change 1: Limited access to wear heavy armor. Heavy Armor was a locked parent to Armor Training in the first game, giving bonus points of only Armor Training. Low bonus to no armor training invest. Changed in MO2. Large lower armor weight with no armor points invested.
4) Armor Change 2: MO2 has a greater number of free armor points allowing mages to spec into full armor training and every magic school.
5) Armor Change 3: Min mana regen was drastically reduced in MO1 and there was no clade system that allows you to bypass this min regen.
6) Armor Change 4: Carapace was not a usable material for armors in MO1 and was only able to be used on shields. The ability for carapace to be used on light and medium armor in MO2 has quite frankly broken the game. You have low weight armor that has very high defenses.
7) Armor Change 5: Shields in MO1 could not be hit when not in the equip state. This changed in MO2 allowing a mage to add a massive high damage resistance hitbox to their player at will drastically reducing damage received with no downsides.
8) Damage scalar changes: MO1 had diminishing returns on upper level values of intelligence. This system has been changed in MO2 to be perfectly linear, drastically increasing damage dealt with extreme values of intelligence.
9) Trinket Changes: Trinkets are incredibly stronger in MO2, making mages do even more damage than initially designed.
10) Mastery Changes: Another bonus to damage dealt by mages and additional buff to their already OP clade tree.


TLDR: Mages are incredibly broken in MO2 and their magic spells have had patch after patch remove any limitations to their power.

And to the mage fan boys complaining that they get .5d while wearing keeled scaled armor, I don't care.

 

[Embuscade]

J'ai pas envie de traduire le post, je suis désolé j'en ai grave marre de vérifier que chaque trucs soit compris, donc traduisez la page avec googletranslattes ou un LLM de type ChatdeMistral ou claude ou autres, je vous laisse vous demerder.

Plusieurs questions, vue que je ne joue toujours pas au jeux :

a. Est-ce que l'on peut toujours faire tomber les joueurs en tant que mage depuis son cheval à l'un à l'autres de loin avec je ne sais pus quel sort, je crois que c'est Earthquake ou je ne sais pus quoi d'autres de l'élémentalisme ??
b. On peut toujours renvoyer à l'état actuel le sort deathhand qui vole de la vie par le sort "Reflect" de l'écunménial, la bulle bleu à la con.
c. Est-ce que l'arc court permet toujours d'annuler les cast des sortes ?
d. Est-ce que l'on est toujours ralentie quand on cast un sort de magicien voir limite statique ?
e. Est-ce que les bonus de régénération de vie/mana une fois que l'on touche une cible en lui tirant dessus, sont toujours accessibles et ça monte de combien ? Et cela donne combien ?
f. https://mortaldata.com/ > magic est que les donnés sont toujours à jours la dedans ?
f1. Est-ce que la demeure corrompue est toujours accessible et la portée de 2000 et la mort et la portée de 300 ?
g. Si je corrupt/purify si il ya une incrémentation de se dernier, par exemple je corrupt l'autres, plus ont me purify, il y a une incrémentation du coup du sort, ou du temps que le sort ferait effet selon les autres sortes ?

Autres, je suis un joueur de dota2 depuis de nombreuses années et je suis les patch assez régulièrement et l'équilibrage en plus que cela soit difficile à gérer, il y a aussi une volonté des développeurs à faire en sorte d'augmenter les winrate de certains matchup quitter à rendre le héros cheater dans dota2 pendant plusieurs patch ou maj, le but de rendre un personnage très cheater/très fort c'est de voir la limite de l'équilibrage et de qui est contenu et qui ne l'est pas, et aussi à quel point cela, et aussi à quel point cela impacte le jeu, les joueurs n'ont pas les mêmes compétences, temps de jeux, ne jouent pas le même héros tous le temps ni la même expérience fondamentale.

> Donc en gros c'est long à équilibrer et chiant et faut passé par un moment rendre les Héroes trop fort pour voir le plus potentiel d'une courbe que l'on essaie de rendre exponentiel petit à petit pour savoir comment adopter le bon nerf, en général c'est ce qu'il est fait, dota2 pendant c'est 10 dernières années, il y avait des héros qui étaint complément cheat au bout d'un moment quoi qu'il adviens et impossible de gagner contre, ce que ont les développeurs de dota2, c'est de rendre tout les héros avec des gros cheat au fur à mesure de faire de l'inflation de partout un peu comme dans notre monde, ou dans les étoiles, l'inflation est un principe d'économie j'ai l'impression.
> > Exemple dota 2 : Phantom Lancer, avec l'item qui enlève de la mana à chaque attaque et que ses illusions sont indissociables de lui même, toute la mana disparaisse au fur à mesure que l'on l'attaque, ce hero à toujours étaient une énorme plaie ouverte, un couteau dans la plaie de dota2 (et c'est pas le pire mais soit il est modérer nulle car son item à était nerf, soit il est trop fort, soit vous l'avez pas gank en début de partie, et pourtant ils ont tout fais pour le nerf, la jungle/forêt dans lequel tu dois farm les mods balancer des sorts dés qu'il y a plusieurs unités genre des stuns, des dammages quoi qu'il en soit et c'est violent et difficile à contrés en micro gestion d'unités secondaires à ce qu'elles déclenche pas les sorts ou ailleurs que à cotés de toi, sauf que c'est des AOE large et que selon l'angle/degrès tu te le prend souvent dans la gueule, et si derrière tu te fais gank alors que tu es stun, comment te dire que tu as tellement la haine.)

Exemple court :

Et dans un des derniers patch de dota 2, (je ne sais pus lequel demerder vous sur liquidpedia dota2 pour trouver la source si ils l'ont mise.) toutes les illusions ne peuvent pus utiliser le vole de mana, (le pire c'était avec AM anti mage qui à un passif qui par défaut chaque attaque enlève de la mana c'est désormais le seul perso sur dota2 qui peut enlève de la mana avec ses illusions qui ne possède pas par default mais il existe une item qui le permet de ce dupliquer par des illusions 2 bref.)

Cependant phantom lancer demeure grave cheater malgré tout (faut le défoncer en début de partie comme tout les hardcarry. )

Alors que les supports/mages bha tu existe pour mourrir en faite, donner ta vie à la place du carry, dans MO2 il n'y pas ce genre de dynamique
Donc des conclusions ? Attendez-vous à "nerf" des mages ?
1a : Non mais à un buff quelconque qui permettras d'enlever de la mana, ou
1b : d'incrémenter l'inefficacité d'un même sort s'il est relancer trop de fois sur un même personnage, fin c'est mécanique d'anti zerg, ça me semble pas franchement idéal et les limites me paraisse assez vite franchissable, genre ça vas temporiser les combats et ça vas hurler aux besoin de healer qui joue défensif et non offensif doivent dissiper le carry/autoattackmêlée mais c'est dêja le cas à vrai dire et ils ont des potions pour des tas de trucs dans le genre tout les gros richesses de corporations d'alliance de guilde là qui ont toutes les ressources
2.Donc non, ça va devrait aller pour les grosses guilde/alliance (je plains les esclaves qui farm les minéraux et autres conneries pour mourrir asp et devoir refarm derrière.)


3. la nécromancie ça demeure difficile à farm, c'est uniquement car il ya pus de monde sur le jeu que cela deviens un problème car les gens ont des réserves, tout coutes moins chères, il ya moins de joueurs, donc plus facile de farm et de montés full nécromancien, bien sur que c'est fort sinon dans la série SoloLeveling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solo_Leveling#Plot (vous spoiler si vous ne l'avez pas vue.) Mais en gros ça démontre bien, le strip/fantasme de tout les joueurs de jeuxvidéo cette série, l'abus de pourvoir en une seule personne.

3a. le vol de vie à c'est limite, suffit juste de créer une mécanique anti vole de vie et c'est fini il n'y a pus de problème, cela semble pas l'idéal de Starvault, mais c'est ce qu'il ya de plus simple.

3b, désolé le meilleur sort de nécromancie demeure celui qui à était donner à des guildes et à des personnages et des clips en Zerg Auw Surge, dit par des russophones "Surgy" qui traverse les murs dans FPS.



4. des vidéos qui montre ça c'est bien, des calculs, des exemples avec plus de donnés, et de liens/urls c'est mieux !

 

[Iloros]

Exactly what I have been saying and tho we disagree on healing alone being able to fix Alvarins or it being best course of action let's just talk about the bias and a theory I have.

Even I am biased towards buffing Thursars and yes when my build was drastically tankier than Oghmirs while doing way more DPS I didnt want either maul or Thursar or akh bond nerfed because bias is a bitch. But most people do not like maul or Thursar or tanly playstyles because they were mostly weak in this game with the exception of Oghmir what was always OP and meta has been speed, attack speed due to parries movement speed due to resets and range being potent etc.

People also defend those things because they are way easier to defend like if Thursars genuinely did 300 damage per hit lets say or a certain weapon its easy to see it needs nerfs and its OP but some shit like massive speed (Alvarins) infinite heal over time (lesser greater heal potions hot food) super fast consistent weapon (2h sword 1h club etc) that drains no stam is defendable because it doesnt have 300 hp and 2 shot you it just does every single other thing better so stupid people that juse see Hp and dmg as combat values fail to recognize just how OP it is.

The game literally has 90% of its things at useless level. Weapon heads armor sets until recently abilities spells skills mastery ppints clade points etc. legit half of it is useless because of the biased feedback you discuss in combination with me theory which is


Theory: SV has 0 internal data on clades used, masteries, clade gifts, weapons crafted, armors crafted, spells used etc. They have nothing and they dont play their own game at all that is why they keep asking the playerbase to give feedback about everything in every patch they literally dont know whats going on in their gamr if they did know they would 100% nerf Alvarins before Thursars because Alvarins were literally all you saw even before Thursar nerf and now? They are actually all they see I go days without pvping non Alvarins and I just pvp for hours a day literally unironically Ill go 2 3 days without getting non Alvarin pvp and 10 20 alvarin fights.

The Alvarin footie sword/dagger players with a bow and skinniest Sheevra mages in their heart believe they are good and outplaying everyone while playing the strongest class on the game. They like comparing other classes to boss fights and ironically they are boss fights because good players beat boss fights 100% of the time lmao. HP and dmg is overrated, hp and dmg difference between classes is miniscule and ability to reset and full heal for no mana in no time is beyond overpowered and unseen in any other game.

Also we have multiple weapon heads that I HAVE NEVER SEEN IN GAME AFTER PLAYING 4.5K HOURS

Light poleaxe head starmace head (used unironically) 2h great axe 1h flanged mace etc etc theres like 8 out of 10 weapon types that are NEVER used lol? If they had data on weapons crafted they would nerf the outlier weapon heafs and buff the weakrr ones theres 0 reason not to if data is some shit like for every 300 heavy poleaxe head crafted 1 light poleaxe head is crafted that would literally be the stats I havent seen that weapons model in my life and I use pole axey its so shit in stats I woukd never craft it.

 

[Sally]

Exactly what I have been saying and tho we disagree on healing alone being able to fix Alvarins or it being best course of action let's just talk about the bias and a theory I have.

Even I am biased towards buffing Thursars and yes when my build was drastically tankier than Oghmirs while doing way more DPS I didnt want either maul or Thursar or akh bond nerfed because bias is a bitch. But most people do not like maul or Thursar or tanly playstyles because they were mostly weak in this game with the exception of Oghmir what was always OP and meta has been speed, attack speed due to parries movement speed due to resets and range being potent etc.

People also defend those things because they are way easier to defend like if Thursars genuinely did 300 damage per hit lets say or a certain weapon its easy to see it needs nerfs and its OP but some shit like massive speed (Alvarins) infinite heal over time (lesser greater heal potions hot food) super fast consistent weapon (2h sword 1h club etc) that drains no stam is defendable because it doesnt have 300 hp and 2 shot you it just does every single other thing better so stupid people that juse see Hp and dmg as combat values fail to recognize just how OP it is.

The game literally has 90% of its things at useless level. Weapon heads armor sets until recently abilities spells skills mastery ppints clade points etc. legit half of it is useless because of the biased feedback you discuss in combination with me theory which is


Theory: SV has 0 internal data on clades used, masteries, clade gifts, weapons crafted, armors crafted, spells used etc. They have nothing and they dont play their own game at all that is why they keep asking the playerbase to give feedback about everything in every patch they literally dont know whats going on in their gamr if they did know they would 100% nerf Alvarins before Thursars because Alvarins were literally all you saw even before Thursar nerf and now? They are actually all they see I go days without pvping non Alvarins and I just pvp for hours a day literally unironically Ill go 2 3 days without getting non Alvarin pvp and 10 20 alvarin fights.

The Alvarin footie sword/dagger players with a bow and skinniest Sheevra mages in their heart believe they are good and outplaying everyone while playing the strongest class on the game. They like comparing other classes to boss fights and ironically they are boss fights because good players beat boss fights 100% of the time lmao. HP and dmg is overrated, hp and dmg difference between classes is miniscule and ability to reset and full heal for no mana in no time is beyond overpowered and unseen in any other game.

Also we have multiple weapon heads that I HAVE NEVER SEEN IN GAME AFTER PLAYING 4.5K HOURS

Light poleaxe head starmace head (used unironically) 2h great axe 1h flanged mace etc etc theres like 8 out of 10 weapon types that are NEVER used lol? If they had data on weapons crafted they would nerf the outlier weapon heafs and buff the weakrr ones theres 0 reason not to if data is some shit like for every 300 heavy poleaxe head crafted 1 light poleaxe head is crafted that would literally be the stats I havent seen that weapons model in my life and I use pole axey its so shit in stats I woukd never craft it.

Okay, this is off-topic, but i just need to once and for all explain to you why alvarins have to be mobile; and why healing is the root issue.

Take away mobile healing from Alvarins, what happens? They run away from the fight, and they keep running until they escape entirely. The fight is concluded. If they stand still to recover, they will be caught and die; and so their only option becomes to flee entirely.

That is EXACTLY how they should work. That is EXACTLY what the benefit to that race SHOULD be; otherwise they have no benefit over any other race in any area.

What 'breaks' them, is when they can abuse their capacity to escape to essentially take endless turns until they win; which is only possible via mobility AND healing. They become what is commonly called a "dodge tank". They literally 'tank' via evasion.. Anytime someone is chasing an alvarin, they are occupied, and so, it achieves the same result as mitigating damage, except it is a far superior form of it, as you take zero damage whilst occupying your target. In turn, they become the most tanky race, whilst also having the other advantages provided by speed; like the option to escape or rush mages.

If it was just having a superior chance to escape and encounter, and rush mages; that is perfectly balanced, and allows them to stand out as a race, without homogeny. It also fits the elf archtype that the alvarins are clearly supposed to embody.

Also, alvarin sight needs to be completely reworked; it is just broken, and removes dynamism from the game (like the ability to actually hide, for example). That is the only thing that needs to be changed for Alvarins.

 

[Iloros]

Okay, this is off-topic, but i just need to once and for all explain to you why alvarins have to be mobile; and why healing is the root issue.

Take away mobile healing from Alvarins, what happens? They run away from the fight, and they keep running until they escape entirely. The fight is concluded. If they stand still to recover, they will be caught and die; and so their only option becomes to flee entirely.

That is EXACTLY how they should work. That is EXACTLY what the benefit to that race SHOULD be; otherwise they have no benefit over any other race in any area.

What 'breaks' them, is when they can abuse their capacity to escape to essentially take endless turns until they win; which is only possible via mobility AND healing. They become what is commonly called a "dodge tank". They literally 'tank' via evasion.. Anytime someone is chasing an alvarin, they are occupied, and so, it achieves the same result as mitigating damage, except it is a far superior form of it, as you take zero damage whilst occupying your target. In turn, they become the most tanky race, whilst also having the other advantages provided by speed; like the option to escape or rush mages.

If it was just having a superior chance to escape and encounter, and rush mages; that is perfectly balanced, and allows them to stand out as a race, without homogeny. It also fits the elf archtype that the alvarins are clearly supposed to embody.

Also, alvarin sight needs to be completely reworked; it is just broken, and removes dynamism from the game (like the ability to actually hide, for example). That is the only thing that needs to be changed for Alvarins.

Dude then foot archers foot mages and xv1s would destroy people or Alvarins just wouldnt engage till they friends came or they would just pick all the urns and get out. They would become even more toxic lol you would still have 0 kill pressure which IS the biggest issue and they just wouldnt even go on meele because oh you got styg I cant bandahe etc. nerf styg and pots? Total rework of TTK needed because Thursars would instadie to every single thing ever.

It would also mess with pve because half the bosses rn literally need high HPS to ever be done I agree with you that it would be good if they hard nerfed healing but they wont ever nerf it enough to balance Alvarins by itself. Dude they are op damage wise too i got weakspotted 4 times in a row by a guy today. Class has like 3-4 giga op things going on other than just reset power lol. We do those beach fights now kid you not everyone is an Alvarin and a rebalance of something everyone benefits from is not nearly enough to make them balanced lol its nuta to think so. Even if you removed all healing completely until you go in a hosue they would be op.

 

[Iloros]

Okay, this is off-topic, but i just need to once and for all explain to you why alvarins have to be mobile; and why healing is the root issue.

Take away mobile healing from Alvarins, what happens? They run away from the fight, and they keep running until they escape entirely. The fight is concluded. If they stand still to recover, they will be caught and die; and so their only option becomes to flee entirely.

That is EXACTLY how they should work. That is EXACTLY what the benefit to that race SHOULD be; otherwise they have no benefit over any other race in any area.

What 'breaks' them, is when they can abuse their capacity to escape to essentially take endless turns until they win; which is only possible via mobility AND healing. They become what is commonly called a "dodge tank". They literally 'tank' via evasion.. Anytime someone is chasing an alvarin, they are occupied, and so, it achieves the same result as mitigating damage, except it is a far superior form of it, as you take zero damage whilst occupying your target. In turn, they become the most tanky race, whilst also having the other advantages provided by speed; like the option to escape or rush mages.

If it was just having a superior chance to escape and encounter, and rush mages; that is perfectly balanced, and allows them to stand out as a race, without homogeny. It also fits the elf archtype that the alvarins are clearly supposed to embody.

Also, alvarin sight needs to be completely reworked; it is just broken, and removes dynamism from the game (like the ability to actually hide, for example). That is the only thing that needs to be changed for Alvarins.

Also their mages will just heal them in xv1 or group fight while you cant heal and coz they literally never die they still have max pressure you need to be able to kill them mate you think im gonna chase an alvarin to his side of the dungeon to stop him from healing cmon now be realistic its not just 1v1s alvarins dominate xv1 and 1vx due to mobility they run through mobs see through walls etc

Unless you make bandage 15 second sitdown animatiln and lesser heal cost 30 mana take 3 seconds to cast and only 2 at a time may they will still be op.

 

[Sally]

Dude then foot archers foot mages and xv1s would destroy people or Alvarins just wouldnt engage till they friends came or they would just pick all the urns and get out. They would become even more toxic lol you would still have 0 kill pressure which IS the biggest issue and they just wouldnt even go on meele because oh you got styg I cant bandahe etc. nerf styg and pots? Total rework of TTK needed because Thursars would instadie to every single thing ever.

It would also mess with pve because half the bosses rn literally need high HPS to ever be done I agree with you that it would be good if they hard nerfed healing but they wont ever nerf it enough to balance Alvarins by itself. Dude they are op damage wise too i got weakspotted 4 times in a row by a guy today. Class has like 3-4 giga op things going on other than just reset power lol. We do those beach fights now kid you not everyone is an Alvarin and a rebalance of something everyone benefits from is not nearly enough to make them balanced lol its nuta to think so. Even if you removed all healing completely until you go in a hosue they would be op.

You're trying to argue that it becomes zerg friendly, but it is actually the opposite.

Running away is a way to counter a zerg. Alvarins are clearly designed to be for the solo escapist style players.

Yes, their advantage SHOULD be to avoid engagement; but i noticed you're just ignoring mounts.

So this advantage is only present in two scenarios:

A) Dungeons, where mounts cannot be used.

B) A scenario where both sets of players have no mount.

So, their advantage is only truly present in dungeons; in open world, mounts are what really matter.

SOMEONE WILL ALWAYS BE FASTER.

You need to understand this, because you can't fix the issue you're talking about. There will always be a scenario where someone is faster than someone else; and then you'd be complaining you can't catch them.

So, you're saying the fix is to homogenize alvarins; when they only have a mobility advantage in a purely foot based scenario; which is like 3% of the actual map where you can't use a mount. Okay, it is the 3% of the map that often has some of the most valuable stuff; but they still have to move that stuff from A to B in space where they do not have a mobility advantage.

If they're going to nerf Alvarin, it should not be their speed. Foot mobility is their race identity. It should either be their health or PHYSICAL damage that should be nerfed; along with healing, if anything is to be nerfed (but tbh, you fix healing, and they become pretty even with everything else imo).

Also, stop saying "they won't ever nerf healing"; yes, if you say that, if nobody complains about it; they won't. They make changes in a democratic way; so really, it is about getting enough people to say it, and they will fix it. But the problem is the pathetic people who crutch off it, as i explain in the original post.

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

Nope @Sally . Speed is king and it always has been. It's fine that they have more dex, it's not fine that their speed is modified by percentage clades (passive+active). And they aren't OP just because of speed. They ignore a ton of gameplay mechanics because of #reasons.

 

[Iloros]

You're trying to argue that it becomes zerg friendly, but it is actually the opposite.

Running away is a way to counter a zerg. Alvarins are clearly designed to be for the solo escapist style players.

Yes, their advantage SHOULD be to avoid engagement; but i noticed you're just ignoring mounts.

So this advantage is only present in two scenarios:

A) Dungeons, where mounts cannot be used.

B) A scenario where both sets of players have no mount.

So, their advantage is only truly present in dungeons; in open world, mounts are what really matter.

SOMEONE WILL ALWAYS BE FASTER.

You need to understand this, because you can't fix the issue you're talking about. There will always be a scenario where someone is faster than someone else; and then you'd be complaining you can't catch them.

So, you're saying the fix is to homogenize alvarins; when they only have a mobility advantage in a purely foot based scenario; which is like 3% of the actual map where you can't use a mount. Okay, it is the 3% of the map that often has some of the most valuable stuff; but they still have to move that stuff from A to B in space where they do not have a mobility advantage.

If they're going to nerf Alvarin, it should not be their speed. Foot mobility is their race identity. It should either be their health or PHYSICAL damage that should be nerfed; along with healing, if anything is to be nerfed (but tbh, you fix healing, and they become pretty even with everything else imo).

Also, stop saying "they won't ever nerf healing"; yes, if you say that, if nobody complains about it; they won't. They make changes in a democratic way; so really, it is about getting enough people to say it, and they will fix it. But the problem is the pathetic people who crutch off it, as i explain in the original post.

Mounts dont matter vs good Alvarins if you arent also an Alvarin the speed and stam gap is way too large even if you had an immoral mount they would keep gapping. Dungeons and pois are the only place where you make gold thats how the game is designed sorry and Alvarins dominate when they add 30x more open world content mounteds can be mentioned but as far as im concerned a full mounted is an RP dismount character.

Someone being a bit faster is irrelevant someone being fast enough to make a joke out of you infinitely kite after multiple mistakes or entering meele is whata the problem. Nobody would care If Alvarins were 430 speed and disnt have infinite stam they are 450 speed woth multiple active speed clades and infinite stam lol.

 

[Iloros]

You're trying to argue that it becomes zerg friendly, but it is actually the opposite.

Running away is a way to counter a zerg. Alvarins are clearly designed to be for the solo escapist style players.

Yes, their advantage SHOULD be to avoid engagement; but i noticed you're just ignoring mounts.

So this advantage is only present in two scenarios:

A) Dungeons, where mounts cannot be used.

B) A scenario where both sets of players have no mount.

So, their advantage is only truly present in dungeons; in open world, mounts are what really matter.

SOMEONE WILL ALWAYS BE FASTER.

You need to understand this, because you can't fix the issue you're talking about. There will always be a scenario where someone is faster than someone else; and then you'd be complaining you can't catch them.

So, you're saying the fix is to homogenize alvarins; when they only have a mobility advantage in a purely foot based scenario; which is like 3% of the actual map where you can't use a mount. Okay, it is the 3% of the map that often has some of the most valuable stuff; but they still have to move that stuff from A to B in space where they do not have a mobility advantage.

If they're going to nerf Alvarin, it should not be their speed. Foot mobility is their race identity. It should either be their health or PHYSICAL damage that should be nerfed; along with healing, if anything is to be nerfed (but tbh, you fix healing, and they become pretty even with everything else imo).

Also, stop saying "they won't ever nerf healing"; yes, if you say that, if nobody complains about it; they won't. They make changes in a democratic way; so really, it is about getting enough people to say it, and they will fix it. But the problem is the pathetic people who crutch off it, as i explain in the original post.

Also "if they are gonna nerf x it shoudlnt be y because y is their identity" is a horrible take. If X is op due to Y then you nerf Y they can still be the fastest just not by as much noone said make humans faster.

Thats like of Thursars had like 300% dmg bonus yoi say nerf Thursar dmg I go well thats their identity. It still will be lol they just wont be giga broken.

Also you addressed almost none of my examples and arguments so try not to repeat yourself if you are gonna write back. I still refuse the claim that Alvarins are fixed if you nerf all healing that is crazy take many situations where you heal way more thsn the Alvarin you are facing.

Alvarins need a direct nerf.

 

[Sally]

Nope @Sally . Speed is king and it always has been. It's fine that they have more dex, it's not fine that their speed is modified by percentage clades (passive+active). And they aren't OP just because of speed. They ignore a ton of gameplay mechanics because of #reasons.

Speed is only "king" WITH combat/mobile healing.

Take away spam healing; what happens?

Alvarin fights a melee slower race. Alvarin is fighting at an objective strength and constitution disadvantage in that fight.

Alvarins trade off potential in the fight, for the chance to escape the fight.

That is how it SHOULD work. Healing breaks this formula, and you end up with alvarins being both the fastest and tankiest, by extension of their ability to heal through the space they create.

The only 'broken' thing about them, is the ability to remove any capacity to hide. The rest is all healing.

Take mobility away from healing, and you balance alvarins by extension.

 

[Sally]

Also "if they are gonna nerf x it shoudlnt be y because y is their identity" is a horrible take. If X is op due to Y then you nerf Y they can still be the fastest just not by as much noone said make humans faster.

Thats like of Thursars had like 300% dmg bonus yoi say nerf Thursar dmg I go well thats their identity. It still will be lol they just wont be giga broken.

Also you addressed almost none of my examples and arguments so try not to repeat yourself if you are gonna write back. I still refuse the claim that Alvarins are fixed if you nerf all healing that is crazy take many situations where you heal way more thsn the Alvarin you are facing.

Alvarins need a direct nerf.

No, it isn't a terrible take.

You're thinking with the brain of competition, not an RPG. This isn't an e-sport; it is a simulation.

Does that mean races shouldn't be balanced? No. It means there should be enough variance between them so that their existence is warranted; otherwise what is the point outside of aesthetic preference? Do you want some skin deep game; or do you want depth?

This directly correlates to the cohesiveness of the world by the way. It is already bad enough i have to look at 10 int thursars casting purify, and people in full armor running the same speed as someone naked; or someone spam healing with a knife stuck in their brain; or that there are just generally too many skill points in the game, so everyone is an everything build..

You're the type of person who will always complain until all races are the same; but making all the races too similar removes dynamism from the game, and makes the world and game feel more flat and dimensionless.

This is not a seriously competitive game. It has unfairness baked it. Should balance be a priority? Yes, but so should depth and artistic cohesion.

You're pushing the game to be this flat boring seriously competitive garbage; when it is infact an RPG, and your choices SHOULD matter; they SHOULD be significant. Making races too similar takes that away. You are asking for your choices to mean nothing.

 

[Sally]

Mounts dont matter vs good Alvarins if you arent also an Alvarin the speed and stam gap is way too large even if you had an immoral mount they would keep gapping. Dungeons and pois are the only place where you make gold thats how the game is designed sorry and Alvarins dominate when they add 30x more open world content mounteds can be mentioned but as far as im concerned a full mounted is an RP dismount character.

Someone being a bit faster is irrelevant someone being fast enough to make a joke out of you infinitely kite after multiple mistakes or entering meele is whata the problem. Nobody would care If Alvarins were 430 speed and disnt have infinite stam they are 450 speed woth multiple active speed clades and infinite stam lol.

Mounts don't matter?

We're not talking about naked steppe horses. Have you ever faced an average mounted archer? Alvarins die just as easily as everyone else, if not easier. The only thing they have going for them is they can run on foot to a tower quicker, but they also die quicker before they get there. I know this because i've caught MANY of them out in the open... Like, if you've looked at the nave chat at all, you probably can see how many people i kill.. So i'm just saying, i know exactly what happens in the open world when an alvarin is caught. You can't lie to me and pretend they have some secret advantage when i'm literally out there killing them constantly.

Also, the irony of bringing up that i never address your points, when you always avoid talking about healing.

You never really touch on it, and you know that. Why? Because like all the other people crutching off it, you like to be able to live forever.

There SHOULD be a race that specializes in speed, for solo players. You SHOULD be able to escape fights with a specific race. This SHOULD come with a drawback to health and strength. Take away healing, and speed is nothing special.

 

[Emdash]

Mounts dont matter vs good Alvarins if you arent also an Alvarin the speed and stam gap is way too large even if you had an immoral mount they would keep gapping. Dungeons and pois are the only place where you make gold thats how the game is designed sorry and Alvarins dominate when they add 30x more open world content mounteds can be mentioned but as far as im concerned a full mounted is an RP dismount character.

Someone being a bit faster is irrelevant someone being fast enough to make a joke out of you infinitely kite after multiple mistakes or entering meele is whata the problem. Nobody would care If Alvarins were 430 speed and disnt have infinite stam they are 450 speed woth multiple active speed clades and infinite stam lol.

this guy is good.

 

[Iloros]

You're trying to argue that it becomes zerg friendly, but it is actually the opposite.

Running away is a way to counter a zerg. Alvarins are clearly designed to be for the solo escapist style players.

Yes, their advantage SHOULD be to avoid engagement; but i noticed you're just ignoring mounts.

So this advantage is only present in two scenarios:

A) Dungeons, where mounts cannot be used.

B) A scenario where both sets of players have no mount.

So, their advantage is only truly present in dungeons; in open world, mounts are what really matter.

SOMEONE WILL ALWAYS BE FASTER.

You need to understand this, because you can't fix the issue you're talking about. There will always be a scenario where someone is faster than someone else; and then you'd be complaining you can't catch them.

So, you're saying the fix is to homogenize alvarins; when they only have a mobility advantage in a purely foot based scenario; which is like 3% of the actual map where you can't use a mount. Okay, it is the 3% of the map that often has some of the most valuable stuff; but they still have to move that stuff from A to B in space where they do not have a mobility advantage.

If they're going to nerf Alvarin, it should not be their speed. Foot mobility is their race identity. It should either be their health or PHYSICAL damage that should be nerfed; along with healing, if anything is to be nerfed (but tbh, you fix healing, and they become pretty even with everything else imo).

Also, stop saying "they won't ever nerf healing"; yes, if you say that, if nobody complains about it; they won't. They make changes in a democratic way; so really, it is about getting enough people to say it, and they will fix it. But the problem is the pathetic people who crutch off it, as i explain in the original post.

Speed is only "king" WITH combat/mobile healing.

Take away spam healing; what happens?

Alvarin fights a melee slower race. Alvarin is fighting at an objective strength and constitution disadvantage in that fight.

Alvarins trade off potential in the fight, for the chance to escape the fight.

That is how it SHOULD work. Healing breaks this formula, and you end up with alvarins being both the fastest and tankiest, by extension of their ability to heal through the space they create.

The only 'broken' thing about them, is the ability to remove any capacity to hide. The rest is all healing.

Take mobility away from healing, and you balance alvarins by extension.

Its not a chance right now its near guarantee. Alvarins would still run through dungeons loot all the urns and easily xv1 and survive 1vx. Address this point it only fixes 1v1s in which other party is willing to chase till death for some reason.

 

[Iloros]

Mounts don't matter?

We're not talking about naked steppe horses. Have you ever faced an average mounted archer? Alvarins die just as easily as everyone else, if not easier. The only thing they have going for them is they can run on foot to a tower quicker, but they also die quicker before they get there. I know this because i've caught MANY of them out in the open... Like, if you've looked at the nave chat at all, you probably can see how many people i kill.. So i'm just saying, i know exactly what happens in the open world when an alvarin is caught. You can't lie to me and pretend they have some secret advantage when i'm literally out there killing them constantly.

Also, the irony of bringing up that i never address your points, when you always avoid talking about healing.

You never really touch on it, and you know that. Why? Because like all the other people crutching off it, you like to be able to live forever.

There SHOULD be a race that specializes in speed, for solo players. You SHOULD be able to escape fights with a specific race. This SHOULD come with a drawback to health and strength. Take away healing, and speed is nothing special.

They dont die quicker because they are way harder to hit to archery. 3x hitbox difference. They also have more stam and jump up or down places other races cant so they are most survivable vs mounted.

 

[Iloros]

No, it isn't a terrible take.

You're thinking with the brain of competition, not an RPG. This isn't an e-sport; it is a simulation.

Does that mean races shouldn't be balanced? No. It means there should be enough variance between them so that their existence is warranted; otherwise what is the point outside of aesthetic preference? Do you want some skin deep game; or do you want depth?

This directly correlates to the cohesiveness of the world by the way. It is already bad enough i have to look at 10 int thursars casting purify, and people in full armor running the same speed as someone naked; or someone spam healing with a knife stuck in their brain; or that there are just generally too many skill points in the game, so everyone is an everything build..

You're the type of person who will always complain until all races are the same; but making all the races too similar removes dynamism from the game, and makes the world and game feel more flat and dimensionless.

This is not a seriously competitive game. It has unfairness baked it. Should balance be a priority? Yes, but so should depth and artistic cohesion.

You're pushing the game to be this flat boring seriously competitive garbage; when it is infact an RPG, and your choices SHOULD matter; they SHOULD be significant. Making races too similar takes that away. You are asking for your choices to mean nothing.

To answer this they would again still be the fastest race except they wouldnt be as much faster to a point where you have quite literally 0 kill pressure against an alvarin that does not want to die. Lets say he got an adamant he genuinely isnt ever dying to a Thurdar Oghmir or Human even if he engages in meele at 0 stam he will parry camp and instnatly run after getting 20-30% stam coz thats enough to perma outrun a non alvarin.

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

this guy is good.

I've been playing this game for awhile now and I've never heard about this guy, but somehow he's the best archer that's ever existed. Looks as skillful as Amalgam.