Now that MO2 is Officially a 200 Pop Game

[Teknique]

Hi friends,

I was often told that all my arguments are invalid because mo1 was a game that was a 200 pop game. Therefore, opponents pontificated that every mechanic that was being discussed whether it be sieging, class balance, movement speed, combat, you name it, was invalid because nobody played that game and all mo2 mechanics are by default superior on virtue of the population.

Now that mo2 is officially a 200 pop game, can we now say that every mechanic without nuanced discussion in mo2 is automagically bad? Worse if we correct for the map size, and the lack of content relative to the predecessor the effective population is much worse. Mo2 decayed population at a much faster rate than mo1 as well.

In conclusion is it now fair to say that mo2 is an effective 50 pop game that was blanket trash in all aspects and default all mechanics in mo1 were better?

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

Server off 140 pop.
Server on 196 pop.

 

[Emdash]

In conclusion is it now fair to say that mo2 is an effective 50 pop game that was blanket trash in all aspects and default all mechanics in mo1 were better?

yea I like what you said awhile ago when I was like I dono, re: MO1 v MO2. It's different times, games, etc... but I think MO2 took a big step back. There is still nothing stopping them from making it decent on some level, but it makes ya wonder. This is some dying to alcoholism of obesity level stuff. But we are tryin!

 

[CherryKush]

They catered their game to game hopping Discord carebear tourists that we all knew were going to leave anyways... We tried to warn them...

 

[Teknique]

They catered their game to game hopping Discord carebear tourists that we all knew were going to leave anyways... We tried to warn them...

Yeah, you’re so right. I think what was surprising about that is that were genuine members of the community that should have known better. They destroyed the whole world for a few silver coins

He who seeks to preserve his life will lose it. Kinda fits here

 

[Yeonan]

Counterpoint:

Many of the changes (seige windows, no walls, no stat loss) were called for repeatedly in mo1.

Not saying thats why pop is down but in hindsight, those suggestions clearly werent the "more people would play" solutions.

Im sure in 5 years after sarducaa and f2p when the pop is at 250 peak, we'll be having the same conversations

 

[Teknique]

Counterpoint:

Many of the changes (seige windows, no walls, no stat loss) were called for repeatedly in mo1.

Not saying thats why pop is down but in hindsight, those suggestions clearly werent the "more people would play" solutions.

Im sure in 5 years after sarducaa and f2p when the pop is at 250 peak, we'll be having the same conversations

Ok, maybe those changes didn’t come out of left field. As for the walls it’s important to say that what we got in mo2 in the form of player housing far exceeded the damage walls could ever do. Every square inch of the map is/was covered in indestructible house safe zones. Fights were often kiting between one stronghold to the other until one team maybe got overwhelmed. The community cheered this on or was at least silent. Pure hypocrisy.

It’s true that it’s hard to accurately say whether these specific changes were the cause of death for the game when sv is so utterly incompetent in practically all dimensions. The game probably could have survived the switch to the battle royal genre or whatever this game became in isolation if the developers were competent. Still I have doubts that it would be able to have the same longevity that its predecessor did. Subbing multiple accounts in the first game was standard. Questioning whether to sub even 1 acct in the sequel is standard by contrast. Revenues could be way lower than mo1 even for that reason.

 

[Yeonan]

Revenues arent lower though. YOY they are objectively better by a good margin.

The fundamental question is this:

If everything was perfect; balance, no bugs, widely accepted systems (TC, PvE etc) what is the realistic player count we could expect?

I think the answer to that is much lower than people like to admit. There is a mentality of "if only x,y,z the playerbaee would 10x" when in reality the cap on this niche of a game is pretty low

 

[Teknique]

Revenues arent lower though. YOY they are objectively better by a good margin.

The fundamental question is this:

If everything was perfect; balance, no bugs, widely accepted systems (TC, PvE etc) what is the realistic player count we could expect?

I think the answer to that is much lower than people like to admit. There is a mentality of "if only x,y,z the playerbaee would 10x" when in reality the cap on this niche of a game is pretty low

The revenue being up raises more questions than answers. The game is taking 15% player base cuts per month.

As for the 2nd part of your reply. Sv is not a mere victim of happenstance in a tough genre despite their best efforts. They took a genre with near 0 competition, got it in front of 10’s thousands of players and then turned it in to house online and walking simulator online.

The game could have maintained 1k concurrently easily, if when you played it, it didn’t play like someone was discovering game design for the first time in 1990

 

[Jackdstripper]

Mo1 had a longer shelf life because the core rules of the game didnt change so drastically like in MO2.
Specifically the flag/mc/safe-unsafe zones. The rules were simpler, harsher, but also familiar for those coming from UO. Game was niche but those that liked it stayed.

Then SV had to revamp the whole system upon launching MO2 for no reason. Removing the red flag and making RPK have no consequences. This alienated all carebears PVErs, and cemented MOs reputation as super hard core gank fest game. Game lost thousands.

Then SV knee jerked and flip-flopped reversing most changes, and brought back red flags and huge penalties for mc. Too late anyways as the carebears had long since gone and written the game off.
This pissed off the niche PVP crowd that was left playing the game. A lot of them left.

All that was left were those super hard core MO worshipers that had invested a shit ton of times grinding and practicing duelling for thousands of hours. Surely their skill and hard work could overcome the changes….

Except that SV now wanted the carebare crowd back, so they made combat easier with abilities, and give random drop trinkets that completely break combat damage at TTK. All you need is a lucky drop and you become a pvp beast.

SV just doesnt know what the hell they want their game to be anymore, and every change is a knee jerk, over compensating, badly thought out, horribly implemented band aid solution.

 

[Emdash]

If everything was perfect; balance, no bugs, widely accepted systems (TC, PvE etc) what is the realistic player count we could expect?

I think the answer to that is much lower than people like to admit. There is a mentality of "if only x,y,z the playerbaee would 10x" when in reality the cap on this niche of a game is pretty low

1000-1500 avg. That is fine. I think the game should just be good. Walls were aids, but so are this many houses and guards. Walls were aids because they completely dominated the low end player. Solo players were shit on by walls like no other mechanic. Sure, some could finesse their way thru, get a pw, etc, but in general, it was wack.

All mechanics that allow people to profit while offline are wack. Resource generation, content gating, guards... that is just bad gameplay.

The thing about the game is that it is true that there are only a certain amount of players who 'can' play because there is only room enough for so many players, but that isn't to say that those people could not be refreshed with other players when they left. Like i tried to play MO but couldn't get a foothold, came back months later and made it, that's how it should be.

It should be a tough world. It shouldn't be like you gotta stay logged in 10 hours a day to compete, but people should be fighting for spots. Then their fighting for those spots should create content and create opportunities for players who are willing to take advantage, thus is the sandbox economy.

 

[Teknique]

Mo1 had a longer shelf life because the core rules of the game didnt change so drastically like in MO2.
Specifically the flag/mc/safe-unsafe zones. The rules were simpler, harsher, but also familiar for those coming from UO. Game was niche but those that liked it stayed.

Then SV had to revamp the whole system upon launching MO2 for no reason. Removing the red flag and making RPK have no consequences. This alienated all carebears PVErs, and cemented MOs reputation as super hard core gank fest game. Game lost thousands.

Then SV knee jerked and flip-flopped reversing most changes, and brought back red flags and huge penalties for mc. Too late anyways as the carebears had long since gone and written the game off.
This pissed off the niche PVP crowd that was left playing the game. A lot of them left.

All that was left were those super hard core MO worshipers that had invested a shit ton of times grinding and practicing duelling for thousands of hours. Surely their skill and hard work could overcome the changes….

Except that SV now wanted the carebare crowd back, so they made combat easier with abilities, and give random drop trinkets that completely break combat damage at TTK. All you need is a lucky drop and you become a pvp beast.

SV just doesnt know what the hell they want their game to be anymore, and every change is a knee jerk, over compensating, badly thought out, horribly implemented band aid solution.

It’s like the glass that shatters from being too hot and then too cold rapidly. It’s a good point, a great point even. I still however believe the game is/was dogshit enough on its own merits to die.

Kind of like your point with trinkets and ttk. This game is way too fucking gear based. A good game allows you to go in with budget kits and still be effective. The old proverbial naked with a flake sword.

Anyway that would be a whole other topic.

Stair volt is only reactionary like you pointed out and seemingly the prerequisite to being listened to by Henrik seems to be being a dogshit player/person and flattering him.

 

[Teknique]

1000-1500 avg. That is fine. I think the game should just be good. Walls were aids, but so are this many houses and guards. Walls were aids because they completely dominated the low end player. Solo players were shit on by walls like no other mechanic. Sure, some could finesse their way thru, get a pw, etc, but in general, it was wack.

All mechanics that allow people to profit while offline are wack. Resource generation, content gating, guards... that is just bad gameplay.

The thing about the game is that it is true that there are only a certain amount of players who 'can' play because there is only room enough for so many players, but that isn't to say that those people could not be refreshed with other players when they left. Like i tried to play MO but couldn't get a foothold, came back months later and made it, that's how it should be.

It should be a tough world. It shouldn't be like you gotta stay logged in 10 hours a day to compete, but people should be fighting for spots. Then their fighting for those spots should create content and create opportunities for players who are willing to take advantage, thus is the sandbox economy.

This is in my opinion the real issue. Where is the guild politics? What great crusade has happened, who is locking down territory that we all hate, and what guild is taking huge L’s and getting blasted in videos, which guild disappeared overnight, where’s the drama. This is why it could never be as simple as a “oh the flagging system sucks”. There is no game! Seriously what Great War has occurred and where’s the footage? It will probably be some failed keep siege or just elementalism everywhere that everyone regears after and has no consequence

 

[Jackdstripper]

This is in my opinion the real issue. Where is the guild politics? What great crusade has happened, who is locking down territory that we all hate, and what guild is taking huge L’s and getting blasted in videos, which guild disappeared overnight, where’s the drama. This is why it could never be as simple as a “oh the flagging system sucks”. There is no game! Seriously what Great War has occurred and where’s the footage? It will probably be some failed keep siege or just elementalism everywhere that everyone regears after and has no consequence

My point is that SV keeps alienating everyone because of the overboard, knee jerking, flip flopping decision on major game fundamentals.

Siege system is also a good example of this. We went from boulder holding, ninja sieging, walling everything, to the most restrictive, cumbersome, pointless, timed-window based, waste of time and gold system ever. Even for sieging simple structures.
And every time they overhaul these “new” system that nobody likes, they over correct in the opposite direction, pissing more people off.
There is no vision, just late, over reaction to mass people leaving, over and over.

 

[Teknique]

My point is that SV keeps alienating everyone because of the overboard, knee jerking, flip flopping decision on major game fundamentals.

Siege system is also a good example of this. We went from boulder holding, ninja sieging, walling everything, to the most restrictive, cumbersome, pointless, timed-window based, waste of time and gold system ever. Even for sieging simple structures.
And every time they overhaul these “new” system that nobody likes, they over correct in the opposite direction, pissing more people off.
There is no vision, just late, over reaction to mass people leaving, over and over.

Yeah I understood you. It’s knee jerk balancing based on the flavor of the day. One idea has a camp of people advocating for it and the other idea has another type of player that advocates for it. They implement one change in one direction but because it’s sv it’s never actually well thought out pissing off both sides. Then since they don’t like to admit they implemented it poorly they might flip flop or double down depending on the mood.

I’m however trying to take it a step further for the mo players that are left. That is that the ideas that are floating around suck and we need to get our theology correct on what makes mortal, mortal. The ideas Henrik implements didn’t come from no where they came from actual chatter on the forums and discord.

There’s a significant subset here that advocated for all sorts of heresies like siege windows,turn caps, or movement speed nerfs. These are foundational issues for the game and should not be in any way unclear as to what side of these issues you should land on, but for whatever reason the community seems to comprehend extremely poorly.

I don’t see a way out. Nobody seems to understand that the game needs to be meaningful in all aspects. There needs to be risk reward, there needs to be skill expression, there needs to be winners and losers, and svs biggest flaw is you need to fully design the classes and gameplay loops of the things you implement . Mo2 does not deliver on any of these, that’s the problem, and I can’t seem to explain it to anyone either.

 

[finegamingconnoisseur]

I feel that too much time has passed and the game has not added much in terms of sand for the sandbox. By now, the game should have added a whole bunch of tools, like dynamic true "living, breathing world" (not the marketing term that every game out there loves to use these days), more in-depth player social elements like a party system, custom reputation/relations list, complex standing system that influences player behaviour and creates incentives for more social interactions other than direct combat, and the like.

 

[Emdash]

I feel that too much time has passed and the game has not added much in terms of sand for the sandbox. By now, the game should have added a whole bunch of tools, like dynamic true "living, breathing world" (not the marketing term that every game out there loves to use these days), more in-depth player social elements like a party system, custom reputation/relations list, complex standing system that influences player behaviour and creates incentives for more social interactions other than direct combat, and the like.

deep breath:

breeding, adventuring (thief, lock pick, random spawn treasure,) economy (player brokers, player tasks, better tasks, so people can be 'put to work' instead of just KoSing everyone.)

It's def not Sardu that is gonna save the game. IMO it's not like we wanna do the same shit with better ping and in sand. Or I don't. But I mean, I am here and tryin'. Nobody can blame ME.

@ rubber band changes, still can't believe they gave veelas armor pen + sped for like 20 seconds haha.

 

[Beatel]

I feel that too much time has passed and the game has not added much in terms of sand for the sandbox. By now, the game should have added a whole bunch of tools, like dynamic true "living, breathing world" (not the marketing term that every game out there loves to use these days), more in-depth player social elements like a party system, custom reputation/relations list, complex standing system that influences player behaviour and creates incentives for more social interactions other than direct combat, and the like.

It still has potential to bring these features in, I constantly advocate for them and plenty more have been vocal about them in game and discord, especially recently as we have more discussions about the core health of the game. We will see...

I get for some the wait has been many more years than I have been with the game though

 

[Xunila]

Return to some meanwhile removed (because of all the crybabies) features of MO1 like:
- remove the "Noob mode" (mode N to disable attacking of blue players),
- return to the profession of cooking by removing the weight lock,
- return to taming as profession (horses without taming skill, stupid idea).

And implement all the missing features of MO1.

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

Return to some meanwhile removed (because of all the crybabies) features of MO1 like:
- remove the "Noob mode" (mode N to disable attacking of blue players),
- return to the profession of cooking by removing the weight lock,
- return to taming as profession (horses without taming skill, stupid idea).

And implement all the missing features of MO1.

I agree with everything but the weight lock. The food system itself is a frivolous waste of time as is currently implemented. I don't want a frivolous system to be more arduous waste of my game time. It literally exist to be a burden. A burden that most players like myself simply don't care about at all.

Furthermore, the food system and the weight class system that it is linked to has created toxic extremes that break the attribute system creating super powered attribute combinations that break the games foundational attribute limitation and control mechanics. The under-leveling of attributes is yet another blatantly obvious balance issue that SV continues to ignore.