Why changing the weakpost chance instead of the weakspot damage would would break the fundamant design behind the Veela Dex Footfighter !

Anabolic Man

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1. The design and stats of a Veela Dexfighter​



The Veela Class was designed to be most to be the most effective, if you play the Veela thin and squishy and in return deal more Damage (a villain/Assasin/Glas Canon Build). The Veela DEX Footfighter would kinda be pointless to play and not be viable for endgame PVP, if his Weakspot chance of a Risar dagger would be nerfed, since Weakspot hits are his main source of damage, which is scaling with DEX and not with Str. Therefore changing the weakspot chance of the only viable Dagger would be a terrible approch ! If Starvault wants to nerf the Dagger, the Developers should consider changing the weakspot damage of a Risar Dagger and not the weakspot chance !
It's already hard enough to dive with a Veela and survive that against a decent team and this is the reason why only the best players are recommended to play as a diver, that is supposted to kill an enemy Mage in the backline, or finish a running Ogmir that overextended too much.
The players clamoring for a weakspot chance reduction seem to have never played the build or understood the design behind it,
otherwise they would have asked for a weak spot damage nerf. This is a long thread, because i need to explain
the massive consequences for this build if SV would tinker arround with the weakspot chance instead of the damage.



2. The scaling of Damage and Gameplay of a Veela

The Str only increase the base damage of a Dagger, which is very low against heavy Armor, if you play a skinny Veela with kinda low STr. The slashing damage from a Risar Dagger against an Arthophpd Carapace or Molarium Plate is ok (13 damage), to be able to trick your opponent from time to time with the mid and slashing attacks, but the slashing attack damage is kinda non existent against heavy armors crafted from Steel and above.

These heavily armored players can only be damaged with medium attacks, which are very easy to block. You have to be rewarded with a big weak spot hit, if you get through one of your "easy to block" mid attacks, which is usually only the case, if you perfectly coordinate the timing of the attack together with a companion and manage to hit your opponent at the same time, or if your opponent running away and you hit him from behind, when he was out of position. The Ogmir is pretty damn good at healing, and very tanky. Without the mage and veela damage, he can just ignore the midlane and push through with a Towerhield in oombination with an Armor made out of endgame materials. (Another reason why SV should not screw around with the weak spot chance!) Already the Magic Relfect change made it harder to nearly impossible to prevent the frontline from collapsing and with a dagger nerf it would even get worse.

3. Suggestion on how I would nerf/adjust the Veela without destroying the fundamental Design of the Build.​

First of all i think that the Veela Dagger playert should be forced to go skinny and play a glas cannon build, without being able to fall back on a tower shield. (only in very rare situations, in which the shield should slow down the character, to protect yourself against a mounted Archer, till you can find some cover with your 147 HP glas canon build. The Towershield would only slow down the Alvarin, if his armor including the shield would be too heavy for an Alvarin with 100 skill points in armor training and 100 heavy armor training, or if the Shield iteself would slow down the player in general. The weight of the Tower Shieldcould to be further increased, so that the Alvarin can only carry a 11-12 kg armor (Horned Scales Khurite Splinted or Pansar Scales/Bloodsilk Armor with a shield to maintain the balance or slow down every character using it. Then significantly fewer Alvarins would be running around with a Towershield, since Horned Scales do not have high armor values and Pensar Scales + Bloodsilk Armor is very expensive. This would be a much smarter nerf to the Dagger Build and not the dagger itself and the Oghmir would not be much effected by this change. He could still wear his Towershield, even if the weight of the shield would be further increased,
considering how heavy armor this class can carry.
It would have an impact on Mages, but i think the large Roundshield is good enough to protect them well. The weakspot damage of the Risar Dagger could considered to be nerfed but then the weakspot chance should be increased for ever point in Dex above 130, to force the Dex Dagger Players to go skinny and this decrease the slashing damage of the risar dagger aswell, that should then be increased. It could also be considered to replace the weakspot mechanic with a continuous armor penetration mechanic but changing the weakspot chance would destroy the Build design.

But now to the numbers and the results of my testing.
Currently every Point Dex above 120 Dex give you 1,2 % more weakspot chance after testing it 300 times against a dummy. A skinny Veela with 5% Weakspot clade and 147 HP get 28 % weakspot chance with the best weakspot dagger ingame (oghmium Risar Hilt with Placoid scales grip and Oghmium Risar Blade) A Fit Veela with 177 Hp and 121 Dex get arround 16 % Weakspot chance with the same dagger. That is 12 % less weakspot chance for 10 less dex.

The lower the weight the less armor weight your character can carry. A skinny Veela could no longer combine a Plate Armor with a towershield if the weight of the towershield would be further increased. This would be a big nerf to the build that would be smart, becuase the gameplay would benefit. Towershields are like Cheatmode on and noone like the Towershield Meta !





During a siege or in the endgame areas people are using Tungsteel or Cronite Armors. The Dagger would only deal 15 Damage or less with a normal mit sttacl, if the Veela damage not scale from Dex but only from STR, and this is too low for a Char that is considered to be a damage dealer/glas canon. The Veela would then be totally unviable. The weakspot chance per 1 Dex should be increase drastically for each Dex point above 131 Dex to force the Dagger Players to play a squishy build. Instead of 1.2% more weakspot chance, every point from 131 Dex should give 2.8% more weakspot chance. Then a Skinny Veela with 139 Dex with an Oghmium Placoid Scale Oghmium Dagger or Tungsteel Dagger would achieve 50% Weakspot chance,
if the skinny Veela would either wear two rings with +4 Raw Dex and play his Veela on Skinny with 147 HP or lower weight wo rings, if he does not own such rings. With all the mentioned Changes the Veela Dex Fighter could not carry a plate armor in combination with a shield, is very squishy and does more damage as a compensation to be that squishy. That would be the best nerf for the Veela build, as the Towershield turns any char with cheap armor into a tank. Wearing rings with Raw Dex would then make a difference and make sense. More players would then play the Veela on Skinny. Please don't nerf the dagger and destoy the reason to play a veela, as we need a counter for the guys in the north with the access to high end Armors and rather nerf it by not bening able to wear a towershield and decreasing tghe damage instead of the weakspot chance.


4. Conclusion​

Nerfing the Risar Dagger weakspot chance would massively affect the gameplay and tinkering with the weakspot chance itself would even destoy the character design. Then you wouldn't be able to confuse lightly armored players with left and middle attacks to land a hit in a duel or in small scale fights. The Dagger Build would then totally suck and i would deleate my char. This would have a massive impact on the time to kill a mage, that only has to block in the middle since the other daggers hardly have any slashingdamage. This is a tool that the diver needs, because otherwise the time to kill would be so long that you wouldn't survive a dive. This is why the Risar Dagger is the only viable dagger !

IMO the suvivability could be tweaked, so that this build can no longer carry a towershield, but changing the weakspot damage or removing the Veela's ability to confuse a lighter armored player with attacks from different directions with a Risar dagger would just suck
and I hope I made myself clear enough to understand my reasoning !

Here is a video of a Duel with a dagger. Without me being able to feint and double feint to make myfriend respect my slashes, i would not be able to hit him once.
 
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Rahz

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Nice ideas all around. But i kinda think that giving some weapons a dex-scaling so more weapons would be "good" for dex heavy builds, would be more fun. A 28% chance to negate armor (and therefore do about 8x to 10x dmg) makes fights a little too rng based and also only using one of four strikes is not great gameplay. If for example all daggers, bows, some straightswords, some poleswords and the khurite greatblade would get a partial dex scaling (like in fromsoft games) it would 1. make dex builds more diverse. 2. make more weapons viable on certain builds and 3. remove the necessity of weakspot hits, that hit for 80+. A crit-hit that does 1.5x the dmg or 2x the dmg is okay but jumping from 10 to 80 dmg because of rng doesn't really fit the combat system in this game imo. For towershields: They are entirely stupid. They grant you a defense buff that is simply to high. Seriousl. Doubling the damage through greatshields would probably still keep them viable. For me the biggest problem with melee combat is that some things are just always better than others. Higher str scaling for hammers and axes compared to swords and added dex scaling for other weapons would make the weaponchoice much more interesting. Yeah axes and hammers have a huge handles..and thats why they should hit like a truck on a pure str. build. Swordfighters wouldnt need that much str and could choose to be a little faster, making the whole melee game a bit more diverse. It would also give foot fighters the opportunity to get a little more speed which would help the balance A LOT.
 
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Piet

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Personally I hate RNG so I would recommend they change it to consistent armor pen instead of chance of fully ignoring armor. How it will be changed though and is already confirmed by Henrik is heavier daggers will have less weakspot so weakspot will still be fine but will be used with lighter daggers like mercy daggers effectively lowering the amount of damage you weakspot with.
 

Anabolic Man

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Personally I hate RNG so I would recommend they change it to consistent armor pen instead of chance of fully ignoring armor. How it will be changed though and is already confirmed by Henrik is heavier daggers will have less weakspot so weakspot will still be fine but will be used with lighter daggers like mercy daggers effectively lowering the amount of damage you weakspot with.
Thx for the feedback.

Exactly this would stop me from using daggers :(

A skinny Veela with 5% Weakspot clade and 147 HP get 28 % weakspot chance with the best weakspot dagger ingame (oghmium Risar Hilt with Placoid scales grip and Oghmium Risar Blade) and this is too much... ?

That's already far too low.

Should only 2 out of 10 hits cause a weakspot in future ?
Then you can shove the dagger up your ass, as you would say it in germany.


The light daggers are supposted to be used from Mages only and the heavy daggers are the weapon of choice for DIVERS ! The Heavy dagger have a bit of slashing damage compared to the light dagger, and the ability to deal some damage against light armored targets with your slash attacks is something, that you cannot do without as a diver,
because otherwise the time to kill the mage in the backline would be way too long. This is why the Risar Dagger is the only viable option for DIvers and the book so expencive !

This nerf of heavy daggers would take the Veela the ability to confuse lightly armored players with left and middle attacks and this iis a problem, because it is hard to hit experienced players, if you can´t change between mid attacks, feints and double feints all the time, to make your opponent respect your swings. There is no way to land a mid attack in a 1 vs 1 situation, if you not make your opponent respect your slashes. The Dagger Build would then totally suck in small scale fights, in Duels aswell as in group fights. Most of the time you are fighting a 1 vs 1, if you try diving a mage. You need to quickly kill the mage, before his friends arrive and try to defend him. If the kill takes too ling you are dead ! With this nerf you mostly would not survive the dive, which is already hard enough. Try it yourself and dive through 10 enemy players to killt he mage in the backline and return alive to your teammates !

Swords and 1 h axes would then be the only viable option for a Veela diver and this would be a terrible change. Hope SV is reading this thread and playtest their announced changes for quite some time with a dedicated combat Alpha testing team, before making a well balanced weapon totally useless.

"Personally I hate RNG so I would recommend they change it to consistent armor pen instead of chance of fully ignoring armor."

i agree on that. I mentioned that as an option aswell.
 
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Rahz

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Jul 19, 2022
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Why should mages use those daggers? They're shit. My mage uses a Khurite Greatblade :D I think weakspot chance sounds an awful lot like crit chance and i dont think crit chance should be the one thing that defines dex-fighters. I absolutely agree that the nerf will hit the current dagger users really hard but honestly if the max crit. chance in this game would be 15% (scaling with weapon class/dex and only 1.5x dmg) it would be fine if dex fighters could then choose to use a greatsword or a polesword for higher damage. Weapons like axes, hammers, lances and all that good stuff would get a nice, juicy str. buff, bows get something against armor, greatshields need a 50% nerf and there you go :D I dont understand why this game has to have such a shallow system when it comes to melee damage scaling.
 

Piet

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May 28, 2020
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Thx for the feedback.

Exactly this would stop me from using daggers :(

A skinny Veela with 5% Weakspot clade and 147 HP get 28 % weakspot chance with the best weakspot dagger ingame (oghmium Risar Hilt with Placoid scales grip and Oghmium Risar Blade) and this is too much... ?

That's already far too low.

Should only 2 out of 10 hits cause a weakspot in future ?
Then you can shove the dagger up your ass, as you would say it in germany.


The light daggers are supposted to be used from Mages only and the heavy daggers are the weapon of choice for DIVERS ! The Heavy dagger have a bit of slashing damage compared to the light dagger, and the ability to deal some damage against light armored targets with your slash attacks is something, that you cannot do without as a diver,
because otherwise the time to kill the mage in the backline would be way too long. This is why the Risar Dagger is the only viable option for DIvers and the book so expencive !

This nerf of heavy daggers would take the Veela the ability to confuse lightly armored players with left and middle attacks and this iis a problem, because it is hard to hit experienced players, if you can´t change between mid attacks, feints and double feints all the time, to make your opponent respect your swings. There is no way to land a mid attack in a 1 vs 1 situation, if you not make your opponent respect your slashes. The Dagger Build would then totally suck in small scale fights, in Duels aswell as in group fights. Most of the time you are fighting a 1 vs 1, if you try diving a mage. You need to quickly kill the mage, before his friends arrive and try to defend him. If the kill takes too ling you are dead ! With this nerf you mostly would not survive the dive, which is already hard enough. Try it yourself and dive through 10 enemy players to killt he mage in the backline and return alive to your teammates !

Swords and 1 h axes would then be the only viable option for a Veela diver and this would be a terrible change. Hope SV is reading this thread and playtest their announced changes for quite some time with a dedicated combat Alpha testing team, before making a well balanced weapon totally useless.

"Personally I hate RNG so I would recommend they change it to consistent armor pen instead of chance of fully ignoring armor."

i agree on that. I mentioned that as an option aswell.
They clearly are op atm though. Even just tung hits for 70-80's and ya "only" 1/3 of attacks are weakspots but they are way harder than anything else can hit even clubs and clubs swing way slower, then add in how little mats to craft a dagger. Only negative is the reach which isn't that bad. It needs nerfed and this was the mo1 way only small daggers could WS.
 

Anabolic Man

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They clearly are op atm though. Even just tung hits for 70-80's and ya "only" 1/3 of attacks are weakspots but they are way harder than anything else can hit even clubs and clubs swing way slower, then add in how little mats to craft a dagger. Only negative is the reach which isn't that bad. It needs nerfed and this was the mo1 way only small daggers could WS.
Here is a video of a Duel with a dagger. Without me being able to feint and double feint to make myfriend respect my slashes, i would not be able to hit him once.

13 damage with a slashing attack is not OP on Atrophod armor. The weakspots need to hit hard, because you cant damage players in Steel with your slashes. The weakspot damage could be slightly reduced but i am against reducing the weakspot chance on heavy daggers for the reasons mentioned above. If SV want to reduce the weakpot damage, they should also increase the slashing damage. The people from the north only hit that hard with their daggers, because they use Oghmium daggers in combination with 2 trinkets that give them 10-11 % piercing damage. They use insanly good stuff. Not the dagger but the Oghmium material is imo too strong. Swords from Ohmium with 2 good slashing trinkets hit for tons of damage aswell.
 
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Anabolic Man

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Sep 7, 2020
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They clearly are op atm though. Even just tung hits for 70-80's and ya "only" 1/3 of attacks are weakspots but they are way harder than anything else can hit even clubs and clubs swing way slower, then add in how little mats to craft a dagger. Only negative is the reach which isn't that bad. It needs nerfed and this was the mo1 way only small daggers could WS.
WO Rings Cuprum Weakspots hits 25+, Tungsteel up to 67, and Oghmium for 78 Weakspot on Dummy

For 80+ the dagger need to be Oghmium placoid Oghmium + 2 rings that give max piercing damage. This is very high. I personally think that Ogmium is op. The difference in the damage compared to steel is too high. It should be 30 up to 40 % better and not twice as good.

The difference between Seedew and Salvia Pots are too large aswell. Salvia and Sangunite should be more easy to get but not twice as good !

Also the defence values from Oghmium and Tungsteel are too high. Oghmium Armor should not be more defencive as Tungsteel armor right now and the defencive of Steel, Heavy Carapace, Pensar Carapace and compareable materials should be reduced a little aswell. The time to kill for a Ogmir in Oghmium Armor and Towershield is ridiculous. This is why people playing coutners like death Knights, Elementalists, Dagger Builds to be able to harm them. A footie with Steel gear simply not deals enough damage to them, to prevent the Frontline to collaps. Guys in Oghmium + a shield can brainlessly push through and ignore the front and midlane wo Dagger Veelas and Mages focusing them and pierce them in the back. We need a melee counter, because of the magic reflect change.
I go into detail about it in this thread.

 
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Piet

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May 28, 2020
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WO Rings Cuprum Weakspots hits 34+, Tungsteel up to 67, and Oghmium for 78 Weakspot on Dummy

For 80+ the dagger need to be Oghmium placoid Oghmium + 2 rings that give max piercing damage. This is very high. I personally think that Ogmium is op. The difference in the damage compared to steel is too high. It should be 30 up to 40 % better and not twice as good.

The difference between Seedew and Salvia Pots are too large aswell. Salvia and Sangunite should be more easy to get but not twice as good !

Also the defence values from Oghmium and Tungsteel are too high. Oghmium Armor should not be more defencive as Tungsteel armor right now and the defencive of Steel, Heavy Carapace, Pensar Carapace and compareable materials should be reduced a little aswell. The time to kill for a Ogmir in Oghmium Armor and Towershield is ridiculous. This is why people playing coutners like death Knights, Elementalists, Dagger Builds to be able to harm them. A footie with Steel gear simply not deals enough damage to them, to prevent the Frontline to collaps. Guys in Oghmium + a shield can brainlessly push through and ignore the front and midlane wo Dagger Veelas and Mages focusing them and pierce them in the back. We need a melee counter, because of the magic reflect change.
I go into detail about it in this thread.

the rarity and difference in them is a design difference preference. Either way works but the rarity and power provides more value so more reason to fight over it. If it wasn't that big a difference no one would care as much to fight over it. But I do agree the reflect change should be reversed. It literally just lowered skill. There is a counter however. If you tornado people with reflect they FLY!
I don't agree we should have daggers just be op just to counter high end mats. That just undermines their use and power and is bad design.