Walls Are Not The Enemy

amazingazda

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So you're a blood thirsty player, searching for your prey, riding out in the vast open world of Mortal Online. Suddenly in the deep horizon the target appears, another player whom you will surely catch off-guard. Adrenaline pumping you boost your horse closer and closer, trying to shoot them with your bow from a distance. Just before you can reach the enemy to dismount them, they ride into some gates which close before you're able to enter and your prey escapes behind some walls like the true coward they are.

"These damn walls shouldn't be in the game", you think to yourself.

But is there any truth to that notion?

Let's take a minute and think about this concept of why walls are placed into survival games and what their purpose is. The first known walls used as borders, were those built back in biblical times around 2,000 BC (according to national geographic). These were times when, similar to the theme of Mortal, the world was a very dangerous place. The civilizations that existed in these times were fierce barbarians such as the Huns and Goths (The Goths / Visgoths later being one of the societies which helped destroy the Roman Empire and bring about the medieval period). Walls were built in these times as a means of security in order for people to be able to rest, protect themselves, and safe keep their belongings, from the dangerous world around them. So what does any of this have to do with Mortal?

Go back to the scenario at the beginning, because perspective is everything. While the said player chasing, hoping to score a kill on the other player, is mad at the walls perhaps the other player is incapable of fighting back. Perhaps he sees you and knows he is outmatched, or might have an emergency or need to log off the game for other reasons. Even in the situation where the player had time and was adequately equipped to fight back (let's say he climbs the walls and starts shooting you from behind them), that is still not the walls fault as much as the design behind them, which leads me to the next point.

What you are upset about is not the fact that walls exist, but instead how difficult the walls are to bypass or destroy. In the first Mortal Online game, there were three glaring issues with walls. The first issue was that, even with siege equipment walls were too difficult to destroy. The second issue being that there were no ways to climb walls without building a ramp (which also would be impossible when the enemy is fighting back). Then the third is that it was easy to place many guards around the walls, making the walls even harder to destroy. These three issues are not so much faults with walls existing as they are faults with the developers who design and balance the game itself.

I am no expert on game balance, and I am not going to pretend like I am, however I do know that walls serve a very healthy role in survival games when balanced correctly. In a game such as Mortal Online, it is just as much a PvE game as it is a PvP game. Not every player wants to fight, and even people who enjoy fighting do not want to fight all the time. When I see a player that I know I stand no chance against, I'm not going to have any desire to fight them regardless of how much they would like to kill me. Game design that takes away player choice and forces the players into these situations 100% of the time will ultimately cause players to quit. A good example of this is what happened to Tindrem in the first game. Red players would sit around camping the gate of Tindrem, killing any player who tried to leave. Many players quit the game because there was nothing they could do in a situation such as this, they are unequipped to fight back.

That last point I feel should really be emphasized because many of you simply don't get it.

Players behind walls don't make the game die. Players killing other players who are defenseless makes the game die.

The more a person has, the more a person is willing to part ways with things. The less a person has, the more cautious they're going to try to be because they don't want to lose what little they have...

Basically it's a triangle like this:

1. Player is able to farm, player has a lot.
2. Player uses said farm to create items.
3. Player has many items so now player wants to use said items.
(Now there is PvP).

Then there is the reverse:

1. Players can't farm because the world is too dangerous.
2. Players only have a few items, but they lose those to another player.
3. Players have nothing to play with and cannot acquire anything to play with so the players quit the game.
4. Less and less players exist, causing even more players to quit because the game feels dead.
(Now there is no PvP).

All of the built up frustration by many players who hate walls has nothing to do with walls, so don't the hate walls because walls are not your enemy. If you are one of the players who hates walls then vent at Henrik, Farmer Joe, and whoever else makes balance decisions in the game. There's no reason for walls to be so difficult to destroy, they are the ones who make it that way. Walls have a rightful and healthy place in Mortal Online and the developers removing them is just a lazy "fix", that really doesn't fix anything.
 
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Rhias

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The issue with walls is that it makes your house/village more safe than a town is. This means that everyone moved for extraction, etc. to their own villages and left the towns.
Due to walls you weren't able to see any other payers in the world, and the world felt dead and empty, even through the population was higher than pre-TC.

Not to mention other issues like walling off content from the public, farming inside walls, the ugliness of some player build villages, etc.
 

Woody

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A general rule of thumb, walls in an open world (and especially a sandbox) game prevent emergent gameplay from occurring and emergent gameplay is king. Walls should exist where appropriate and not as a freeform choice for the player base to do with as they please.
 

Ibarruri

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Personally, I don't think it's a bad thing that players can make a little palisade rune. But there is a difference between surrounding your house with a small wooden palisade that allows you to protect yourself from animals, npc and things like that and another is that each house is fortified as if it were the fortress of Mordor.
 
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amazingazda

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A general rule of thumb, walls in an open world (and especially a sandbox) game prevent emergent gameplay from occurring and emergent gameplay is king. Walls should exist where appropriate and not as a freeform choice for the player base to do with as they please.

I don't believe I agree with that simply because you are acting like walls are meant to be a permanent thing. Every statement from anyone who plays Mortal is in the view that walls are some indestructible force that is impossible to deal with, which once again goes back exactly to what I said in my original post, it's a design problem and has nothing to do with the existence of walls.

Walls are meant to be broken, but in Mortal Online 1, walls were so ridiculous that everyone that played has been forever scarred by the horrible balance to where they now think that walls are the problem when they are not. Imagine if you could break a palisade's walls with a sledgehammer, in a reasonable amount of time. Would you still have this same view that walls prevent emergent gameplay? I think you would not, and that is the difference between walls being balanced correctly and how walls were designed in Mortal Online 1.

The issue with walls is that it makes your house/village more safe than a town is. This means that everyone moved for extraction, etc. to their own villages and left the towns.
Due to walls you weren't able to see any other payers in the world, and the world felt dead and empty, even through the population was higher than pre-TC.

Not to mention other issues like walling off content from the public, farming inside walls, the ugliness of some player build villages, etc.

Same thing also applies to your response as well.
 

Amadman

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A padded room.
There will still be walls in the world. Some npc towns will have them as well as the new keep spots will have them. They will have set locations though without free placement.

So players that want to live behind walls will still be able to do so.
 
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Rhias

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Imagine if you could break a palisade's walls with a sledgehammer, in a reasonable amount of time. Would you still have this same view that walls prevent emergent gameplay?
Imagine you log out, and the next day all your walls are gone because some naked people with animal materials bashed them for the lolz of it.
What's the reason to build them at all?
 

Bladeer01

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on a post titled " why did you quit mo1" i argued that wall should be breachable ( not destructible ) via a pickaxe or something , so lone player can bypass them , or ascendable , so if the keep / wall / whatever is without player , you can by-pass it
 

Speznat

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on a post titled " why did you quit mo1" i argued that wall should be breachable ( not destructible ) via a pickaxe or something , so lone player can bypass them , or ascendable , so if the keep / wall / whatever is without player , you can by-pass it
If you can bypass it and place a manganon inside to siege than why building a wall in the first.
Just an example why would anyone build a wall if its easy to bypass it?
 
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Bladeer01

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i don't say it need to be easy , there should be something that don't allow you to place structure/siege weapon in it , and i should take several long minute to do so , but hey , i don't want to revive the ressource walled from all other exept 1 guild
 

grendel

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IMO free placeable walls was one of the big issues that fucked up MO1. Whatever the logic and arguments, reality is that with the MO1 free placed walls, traffic died down, small scale pvp died down., small scale trade died down, the world became ugly, and thr were chinesewall sized walls blocking off important areas. In my MO1 experience, this was the beginning of the end.
 

Bladeer01

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IMO free placeable walls was one of the big issues that fucked up MO1. Whatever the logic and arguments, reality is that with the MO1 free placed walls, traffic died down, small scale pvp died down., small scale trade died down, the world became ugly, and thr were chinesewall sized walls blocking off important areas. In my MO1 experience, this was the beginning of the end.


agreed ; use lot of hour to try and by pass those wall to get some ressource , or revived inside blue priest in keep only to find that i couldnt get out of said keep ....
 

amazingazda

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IMO free placeable walls was one of the big issues that fucked up MO1. Whatever the logic and arguments, reality is that with the MO1 free placed walls, traffic died down, small scale pvp died down., small scale trade died down, the world became ugly, and thr were chinesewall sized walls blocking off important areas. In my MO1 experience, this was the beginning of the end.

I don't know how far back you are speaking of, but in my experience walls had nothing to do with why "traffic" died out. The reality is that Mortal is a game of politics and phases, and the changes of the times affect "traffic" far more than any other factors. If you want to talk about this subject, then you can't ignore the existence of giant "super guilds" and alliances as being an even greater reason than walls for the slow death of the game.

You can try to act like walls are at fault all you want, but when one guild is so large that there is little to no competition it becomes increasingly difficult for anyone to play the game. The end of Mortal in the last few years is the story of how every remaining guild in the game banded together in an attempt to defeat one single guild and failed. Then that one guild held such an uncontested monopoly that it fell apart into two sides and basically warred itself, and then that's the end of the game essentially.

Why ignore everything else just to pretend like walls are the issue? There is far more at work in Mortal than walls which cause problems, for example how do you truly defeat a guild? Even when you blow up their House or Keep they never lose their Prominence from their guild stone which means they can simply pull the money out of their guild stone before they get blown up and build again like nothing ever happened. No one is kicked from the stone, the guild is not disbanded, so for a large guild they don't even have any inconvenience beyond rebuilding another keep. They don't have to farm more prominence, or re-invite all the members of their guild, it's far too easy to start over.

Then there is the problem of the game not being scalable. When there is only one of any set resource or tool, the game is doomed to fail before it has started. You are so quick to complain about people walling things off but the simple fact is, players don't need walls to prevent other players from accessing things. When there is no safety in the world as a player what do you do? It's simple, you quit. You act like in the first one everyone was hiding behind walls, but the fact is the guild RPK blew up every last Keep and nearly every palisade in the game a couple years back, did it magically fix the game and make it a better place? No. In fact after that the game's population went down to almost nothing. The only time Mortal's population would increase was in periods of stagnation and each time the game had periods of war it would die again.

Walls were too strong in MO1, I am not going to dispute that. It's not that the health of the walls was the core issue though, it was the fact that siege weapons were not easy to acquire, siege weapons that were not Mangs didn't even do great damage to walls, and guards were far too cheap and you could place basically infinite amounts of them.

If you can bypass it and place a manganon inside to siege than why building a wall in the first.
Just an example why would anyone build a wall if its easy to bypass it?

If you want to know "what's the point of walls if people can bypass them or destroy them easily", the point of a "base" in a survival game is a temporary establishment to provide storage and shelter. It's not supposed to be a max security fortress, that's what a Keep is for. I am not suggesting people should easily be able to just climb over your wall and drop a Mang and blow your things up, what I am saying however is that walls on a player base should be easier to destroy and probably even destroyable with a melee weapon using a character that is built for that. How long it should take to destroy is subjective, but it should be possible unlike in the first one where the only way to deal significant damage was with siege weapons. Maybe you think it's pointless, but I do not. If someone hates you enough to spend their time destroying your walls then I don't see a problem with that. Interactions like that is how you build PvP and meaningful content. The next time you come to bust down the same persons walls, they are probably going to be far more paranoid, and probably even ready to fight back (which is exactly what you want, right?).
 

amazingazda

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OP, you're gonna be in the minority on this one. The walls we had in MO1 were terrible for the game for all types of players. We have years of proof on it.

The only proof you have, is years of terrible design and that's not really proof when you have nothing to compare it to. How many other sandbox survival games are there out there that have walls? Quite a lot. How many of those games came to the conclusion that walls are bad for the game? Almost none of them. How you fail to see that StarVault is the problem is beyond me.
 
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amazingazda

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Imagine you log out, and the next day all your walls are gone because some naked people with animal materials bashed them for the lolz of it.
What's the reason to build them at all?

And what is the issue with that? I fail to see why that's an issue. If it's a random base somewhere then the walls should be temporary as a means to protect the player while they are doing whatever they're trying to accomplish. Sure, you might troll someone once, but the next time you come around there's a good chance them and / or their buddies are going to kill you on the spot and be ready for you.
 

Amadman

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A padded room.
The only proof you have, is years of terrible design and that's not really proof when you have nothing to compare it to. How many other sandbox survival games are there out there that have walls? Quite a lot. How many of those games came to the conclusion that walls are bad for the game? Almost none of them. How you fail to see that StarVault is the problem is beyond me.


At least they have opted to throw away that 'terrible design' and are attempting to make changes for the better.

Granted, only time will tell if that is the case. But it has to be better than them clinging onto something that clearly did not work.
 

KermyWormy

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This isn't a survival game. It's a "next generation, first person, sandbox MMORPG..."

The game is persistent , nothing resets, you don't consistently start over from nothing with nothing unless by choice.

These facts are why people will argue against walls that don't in fact offer good protection to assets that are more permanent than you'd find in any "survival" game. Even tho things can be destroyed, they're not being built and leveled down on a daily basis.

The implementation of walls in the old game was truly bad, but it took people abusing them more and more over time for most to collectively agree that they were as bad for the game as they were.

If the OP doesn't see that, he's blinded by some desire or fear he has personally.

The old game was fine with walls only around keep Palisades, and MO2 would be fine this way as well, I think it helps more than it hurts.
 

amazingazda

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This isn't a survival game. It's a "next generation, first person, sandbox MMORPG..."

The game is persistent , nothing resets, you don't consistently start over from nothing with nothing unless by choice.

These facts are why people will argue against walls that don't in fact offer good protection to assets that are more permanent than you'd find in any "survival" game. Even tho things can be destroyed, they're not being built and leveled down on a daily basis.

The implementation of walls in the old game was truly bad, but it took people abusing them more and more over time for most to collectively agree that they were as bad for the game as they were.

If the OP doesn't see that, he's blinded by some desire or fear he has personally.

The old game was fine with walls only around keep Palisades, and MO2 would be fine this way as well, I think it helps more than it hurts.

What do walls have to do with starting over? Also you are quite misguided if you think walls in the first one were not destroyed on a daily basis. Walls and houses were sieged all the time, and yes as much as the developers probably don't like the term, Mortal Online is a survival game. Literally a survival game is a game where there are no set quests or goals and you are spawned into a world with nothing and have to explore the world and craft items to survive.

Sounds an awful lot like Mortal Online, doesn't it? Not every survival game forces you to eat to survive, which I'm guessing is what you'd base your description off, and very few survival games force you to start over when you die (which you must not have played many survival games if you believe they do). So don't sit here and try to tell me Mortal isn't a survival game, all it would take is one Google search to see that you are wrong.
 

Rhias

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And what is the issue with that? I fail to see why that's an issue. If it's a random base somewhere then the walls should be temporary as a means to protect the player while they are doing whatever they're trying to accomplish. Sure, you might troll someone once, but the next time you come around there's a good chance them and / or their buddies are going to kill you on the spot and be ready for you.
It will lead to frustration.
It's like getting over and over killed by some dude at a priest that has fun doing so, or your mount getting griefed within a town.
There are quite a lot of people having fun of griefing people. I expect quite a few new players will quit after they spent one day building a nice fortress, logging off, and seeing everything gone on the next morning.

Also if you make them easy to destroy, you also need to make them easy/cheap to build.
This means people will start spamming them and you will always have several layers of walls across your house. Which looks ridiculous.

An additional reason again walls is that the AI has issues with pathing. We saw that in MO1, and in MO2 we can already see that sometimes AI has issues with pathing, even through everything is static, and there are no dynamic obstacles yet.
 
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