The Archetype balance

Fargus

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Oct 17, 2021
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With the recent talks about balance of regearing Mages and Fighters and stamina and mana regen nerfs, it got me thinking about the barrier of entry for each of the archetypes. I will admit that without the whole picture of what's going on behind the scenes I am only working with part of the information but I digress. There are 4 dedicated main archetypes in mortal online defined by the primary point system; Fighter, Archer, Mage, and Tamer. (I understand that there is mounted but I view mount more as a template that is added to one of the others rather than its own Archetype)

The Average Primary point requirements are as follows; (Mounted is included to cover all bases)
Fighter 10Archer 11Mage 9Tamer 12Mounted 7
BlockingDefend stanceVitalismDefensive stanceBalance
Defend stanceSprintingMeditationSprintingControlled Riding
Offensive stanceArmor trainingMental trainingArmor trainingMounted attacking
SprintingCombat maneuveringMental offenseCombat maneuveringAnimal care
Armor trainingEnduranceDefensive stanceEnduranceTaming
Heavy armor trainingAnatomySprintingAnimal CareVeterinary
Combat maneuveringArcheryMagic schoolsTamingCreature control
EnduranceAiming TechniqueChosen School(s) of MagicVeterinary
AnatomyControlled AimCombat maneuveringCreature control
Weapon SchoolMarksmanshipAdvanced Creature Control
Weapon schoolBeast influence
Beast mastery

These are the primaries that are required to get a specific archetype up to base effectiveness, The first thing I want to point out and my first suggestion is that primaries that are required by virtually every build should be changed to secondary skills or altered in a way to make them unique to the archetype, specifically sprinting and defensive stance. I am of the opinion that primaries should be definition build defining instead of a build tax I would go as far as to say the same thing for skills like endurance, blocking, balance and anatomy. That would open every single build up and allow development go into skills that people are excited to take instead of build taxes. Until the primary point system is first either equalized in balanced in a way that seems fair as a whole, all other balance changes are just going to compound the issues of balance players have. People hate when their characters are nerfed or in some cases like the paladin build effectively erased and it feels bad when changes were put into the game that seem to make the game worse adding a pearl to earthquake reagents that I'm not even sure is in the game without added its ability to knock people from their horses, but I truly believe that one of the best ways to implement balance changes is altering the primary point system to add to the game instead of take away from it.

Instead of having armor training being a primary make it a secondary skill then in addition to heavy armor training in that skill tree you could have an alternative primary that helps armor wearing paladins regen better. Instead of every foot build being taxed points on sprinting or combat maneuvering make them secondary skills and add primaries to further define builds like adding a primary or two under each of the weapon class trees that increase max damage with those weapons. The point I'm trying to make is change build tax skills and add build defining skills to balance the game in a more organic and less intrusive way.
 

PoisonArrows

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Very well and thought out post I love the way it was written. I have written a similar post in the recent past about how I thought of a new set of skills called "Specializations" to allow people to specialize in more detailed versions of the already existing arch types. I still hold hope that Veteran Points will be something to that effect. I think this idea would accomplish the same goal as putting some primaries into secondary's but have a more exciting outcome.
 

PoisonArrows

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I'd also argue that HeadShot should be added to your archer list, as well as MA, as I don't believe someone is a dedicated archer if they don't have these 2 skills. Edit: Okay good I see you added MS in now. I'd add Heavy armor training to the MA as well because reducing incoming ranged fire is really the only damage you will be taking. In addition if you have to sacrifice defensive stance for Heavy Armor training, then Heavy Armor is superior in damage reduction. Though there is some argument for defensive stance on a Oghmir as Stone skin and Defensive stance in low levels of play deflect blows much more often, when used with weaponry and armor up to Ironbone.
 
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Tzone

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For foot archer take out marksmanship and controled aim. Marksmenship isnt usefull for foot archer. On paper people say its for head shots with broadheads but in practice you get more DPS output in group fights with longbow arrow. In 1v1 or small fights people will have more freedom to dodge arrows then group fights so Its even harder to land already improbable head hits.

MS is very good on mounted for PvE since they have predictable paths.

I was a archer main and the only think you need or is a benefit is aiming tech. Controlled aiming is not in and unless make sway worse which would make archery less fun, I think its not worth it.
 

PoisonArrows

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For foot archer take out marksmanship and controled aim. Marksmenship isnt usefull for foot archer. On paper people say its for head shots with broadheads but in practice you get more DPS output in group fights with longbow arrow. In 1v1 or small fights people will have more freedom to dodge arrows then group fights so Its even harder to land already improbable head hits.

MS is very good on mounted for PvE since they have predictable paths.

I was a archer main and the only think you need or is a benefit is aiming tech. Controlled aiming is not in and unless make sway worse which would make archery less fun, I think its not worth it.
That's Because MS is best when paired with High Dex. Most MA builds use the Oghmir 123 Strength route rather then Dex in their builds. But you will absolutely see a difference if you use it with Dex builds and aim for the head.
 

Tzone

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That's Because MS is best when paired with High Dex. Most MA builds use the Oghmir 123 Strength route rather then Dex in their builds. But you will absolutely see a difference if you use it with Dex builds and aim for the head.
That has nothing to do with what I said. Doesnt mater how much dex you have to add if you dont hit the head. The issue 100% has nothing to do with no procing weakspots. You are not going to get head shots 90% of the time, people have the ability to move unpredictably untill they are close enough. You can get weakspots 2/3 arrows even up to 3/4 arrows as the average range, it is not a issue with dex.

All these people saying just aim for the head should show them playing foot archer and winning in PvP first.
 

Fargus

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Oct 17, 2021
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The point I'm trying to make is each character will take dozens if not hundreds of hours to fully flesh out let alone get to a baseline effectiveness, and there are a limited amount of points to spend to realize your build. I just don't see the point of making players waste points on primary skills that everyone has to take. When you could instead better specialize existing builds or even create new ones.(I am look at you dualwielding ax guy in the MO2 images) Imagine if they reorganized the skill trees and added in things that incouraged new ways to play instead of trimming down the amounts of ways we currently have.
 
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Anabolic Man

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The point I'm trying to make is each character will take dozens if not hundreds of hours to fully flesh out let alone get to a baseline effectiveness, and there are a limited amount of points to spend to realize your build. I just don't see the point of making players waste points on primary skills that everyone has to take. When you could instead better specialize existing builds or even create new ones.(I am look at you dualwielding ax guy in the MO2 images) Imagine if they reorganized the skill trees and added in things that incouraged new ways to play instead of trimming down the amounts of ways we currently have.

I think endurence is not needed at all. 19 more Stamina, passive regeneration and to be able to swim is not as important and can be dropped, if you make a versetile build.
my build.jpg
I for excample use a Hybrid that can use Magic, use Bows, use Swords and can do mounted Archery.
Ps i dropped Vitalism to for more Armor training.
 

Tzone

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I think endurence is not needed at all. 19 more Stamina, passive regeneration and to be able to swim is not as important and can be dropped, if you make a versetile build.
I for excample use a Hybrid that can use Magic, use Bows, use Swords and can do mounted Archery.
Ps i dropped Vitalism to for more Armor training.
Endurance is always needed unless you are mounted. It alos adds .10 stamina regen. Meta right now greatly favors to larger stamina bar over the smaller.
 

Fargus

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Oct 17, 2021
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I think endurence is not needed at all. 19 more Stamina, passive regeneration and to be able to swim is not as important and can be dropped, if you make a versetile build.
View attachment 2546
I for excample use a Hybrid that can use Magic, use Bows, use Swords and can do mounted Archery.
Ps i dropped Vitalism to for more Armor training.
I'm sure you have a build that works just fine for you without endurance but my point still stands about build tax since you took aggressive, defensive, anatomy, combat maneuvering, and sprinting in your versatile build. Because a vast majority of players have to take those skills, so they should be secondaries so more unique primaries can be added and used.
 

MolagAmur

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I see the point you're making and I agree with you. I've actually spoke on this quite a bit. There are a lot of primaries that 99% of people use to be combat effective and it makes you wonder why they even exist if we have to use them. Aggressive, Defensive stance, Sprinting, and Anatomy using up 400 primary points right off the bat is just such a waste of points that could be used to create more unique builds.

I understand there are a few people who go without one or two of these skills in their mounted build or whatever, but the point still stands. Its also a shame we didn't get any new skills added to MO2. They could have replaced these basic mandatory skills with something that you actually need to decide if you want/need.
 

Tzone

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Do we not need balance (the skill) anymore? I guess the idea being tax points is,
Balance currently doesnt work, In the future it will be usefull to not get knocked backed or dismounted.
 

Fargus

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SV really just needs to revamp the whole skill system, it's what makes Mortal online unique as an mmo and really should be focus on as such a define feature. I also don't understand whys skills like reading, foot speed, jumping, are into the game other than just to be pointlessly anti QoL.