Primaries That Should be Secondaries

Kaemik

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This suggestion is meant to run alongside other combat combat build changes suggested in this topic that make use of the points it frees up: https://mortalonline2.com/forums/threads/kaemiks-compendium-of-game-suggestions.7645/

As MO2 has transitioned to a 1 character per account game it does not feel like the skill system has really kept up with that. There are a lot of skills you NEED to pick up in order to be viable as a main character that the game requires you to invest points into. The only characters you could viably drop them on is are alts.

The primaries made secondaries I'm about to suggest have two goals:
1. To establish a better baseline combat viability for all characters with the presumption that a character played as a main needs certain things to enjoyably play the game. (Because this game should not be balanced around pay-to-win alt accounts)
2. To free up points for increased specialization in certain areas making builds more flavorful and unique.

PRIMARIES TURNED SECONDARY

1. Sprinting - Sprinting is a hard requirement for every single character that fights on foot. Only mount bound builds would run 0 sprinting, and mount bound builds have very limited limited application making them a solidly alt-only build.
2. Combat Maneuvering - Combat maneuvering translates directly to speed as you move faster in combat-mode than in non-combat mode with this skill at 100.*
3. Blocking - You don't have blocking. You're facing a veela melee. Game over, no matter what your build is unless it's mountbound. Enough said.

*Humans now get free armor training instead of Combat Maneuvering from clade gifts. Makes sense anyway with their cleric gift.

NEW SECONDARIES

1. Daggers - Ok so technically this is an old one but it's so overhauled that I'm suggesting it as new. Daggers are made a secondary but in exchange they have their ability to block all damage with 100 blocking removed. Even if parries 2h weapons should give considerable damage bleed through when used with a dagger. This gives everyone a free melee weapon they can use to deal damage, but not defend themselves very well.

"But there should be viable dagger-focused builds." Absolutely and as I post more suggestions you'll see a very powerful dagger assassin build formed. But it relies on other primaries and is not meant to fight head-to-head with true melees.

2. Quarterstaves - Quarterstaves are a new weapon type. They have a handle, a wrapping and no real head. Quarterstaves give blocking as a two-handed weapon, and a have very good base durability for the materials used. However, their damage is trash.

SUMMARY OF OVERALL EFFECT

All builds now move viably on foot. All builds now have the option of a defensive or offensive melee weapon even if they are not a melee build. Yes, melee-focused builds are WAY better at melee. But you can run a dungeon on a mount bound build or use a dagger to farm walkers on any mage. Pull a quarterstaff and parry on any build. Oh, and all non-braidead builds for mains just effectively gained 3 primaries they can use for specialization in their focus.
 
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Jatix

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Making things not prinmaries has the side effect of peopel can make even more op builds. One of the issues with current 1 char is that because you can do more, peopel have really aids op builds. MO1 MA couldn't fit magic to heal. MO2 you can easily be a good FF and mounted, etc. so having more primaries would just make that extra op. While normal max ff, hybrid, dex mage, etc get no better.

To me the ideal is make some parents primaries and the children secondary's. Like the different weapon types. Its always bugged me that my guy who lives to fight cant pull off learning multiple weapons. Especially now with 1 char slot. And if they want specific ones liek poles can be theri own extra prim if they really want to keep them bad and take 2 prims.
 
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Kaemik

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Making things not prinmaries has the side effect of peopel can make even more op builds. One of the issues with current 1 char is that because you can do more, peopel have really aids op builds. MO1 MA couldn't fit magic to heal. MO2 you can easily be a good FF and mounted, etc. so having more primaries would just make that extra op. While normal max ff, hybrid, dex mage, etc get no better.

To me the ideal is make some parents primaries and the children secondary's. Like the different weapon types. Its always bugged me that my guy who lives to fight cant pull off learning multiple weapons. Especially now with 1 char slot. And if they want specific ones liek poles can be theri own extra prim if they really want to keep them bad and take 2 prims.

This is part of a whole system of changes I'm proposing outlined here:


As you can see more primaries are being added to increase specialization as a result of these changes, and free stuff we're currently getting (such as primary free shields) are being taken away. If these changes were made in isolation you're right, they only make the problem worse. But combined with other changes suggested, they actually will make it more difficult to make a build that does everything well.

I'm trying to add roughly 100-300 points per role depending on how deep you dip into said role with those roles being:

Foot-melee, foot-archery, magic, mounted combat, and beast mastery. And that's if you're going for a single specialization per role. For instance, sheild+spear is buffed by the changes in melee but also requires 3 additional primaries compared to what it does now. Meaning everything these changes gain you is lost before you even start looking at things like archery.
 
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ArcaneConsular

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Agreed. Especially when they add more skills like beast mastery. Going to be like 700 points to be a tamer
 

Tashka

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1. Daggers - Ok so technically this is an old one but it's so overhauled that I'm suggesting it as new. Daggers are made a secondary but in exchange they have their ability to block all damage with 100 blocking removed. Even if parries 2h weapons should give considerable damage bleed through when used with a dagger. This gives everyone a free melee weapon they can use to deal damage, but not defend themselves very well.
Please stop. Why does it bother you so much that daggers can stop damage? They are low-strength weapons and with 28 str, you already take considerable damage from anything heavier than flakestone sword even with max blocking. Many mages don't use shields because they value stamina more.

Daggers are already extremely weak. Mellee-focused builds are already way better than anything with a dagger, no matter if you wear ragged cloth or cronite mercenary. You're mellee and die to a dagger -> you're trash, period.
 

Kaemik

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Please stop. Why does it bother you so much that daggers can stop damage? They are low-strength weapons and with 28 str, you already take considerable damage from anything heavier than flakestone sword even with max blocking. Many mages don't use shields because they value stamina more.

Daggers are already extremely weak. Mellee-focused builds are already way better than anything with a dagger, no matter if you wear ragged cloth or cronite mercenary. You're mellee and die to a dagger -> you're trash, period.

Daggers should be more than a melee weapon for mages. As a secondary, they keep that role but if you read some of my other suggestions they get massive buffs in other areas with the proper primaries. Primarily, they are excellent in dual-wielding both as an off-hand or with 2 daggers. They have a synergy with thrown knives in the ranged combat post I'm about to release, and they have a synergy with poison in the ideas I have on that.

A dagger assassin is an entirely new build built from synergies with multiple systems in my ideas. It just draws its strength from things other than being able to block well and draws power from primaries other than one needed to learn the base weapon. It's set apart completely from other melees in how it plays which is good. We need more builds that stand out and do something different.

A super fast attacking, high DPS, backline mage melter who can duck and weave around to apply poison stacks to enemies (The way it's intended to be played) just sounds a lot more like what dagger weilders should be strong at than trading blows with some roided out Thursar with a sword as tall as themselves. And a lot more fun.
 
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Tashka

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Daggers should be more than a melee weapon for mages. As a secondary, they keep that role but if you read some of my other suggestions they get massive buffs in other areas with the proper primaries. Primarily, they are excellent in dual-wielding both as an off-hand or with 2 daggers. They have a synergy with thrown knives in the ranged combat post I'm about to release, and they have a synergy with poison in the ideas I have on that.

A dagger assassin is an entirely new build built from synergies with multiple systems in my ideas. It just draws its strength from things other than being able to block well and draws power from primaries other than one needed to learn the base weapon. It's set apart completely from other melees in how it plays which is good. We need more builds that stand out and do something different.
What's the point in being excellent in dual wielding (which will never come as you described, they tried increasing swing speeds for lighter weapons already and abandoned it due to ping issues) if you can't properly parry in a parry-based combat system? What's the point of fast swings if all you need is to hold down block after being parried. Daggers are already fast enough to hit an opponent while they swing with some skill and luck, making them any faster won't really help. We can have assassin builds while keeping daggers as they are now, like SV could finally give us poisoning, and they wouldn't be OP at all.
 

Kaemik

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What's the point in being excellent in dual wielding (which will never come as you described, they tried increasing swing speeds for lighter weapons already and abandoned it due to ping issues) if you can't properly parry in a parry-based combat system?

Killing mages, flanking anyone, and getting the drop on someone. Henrik has stated multiple times combat in this game is meant to be based around group combat, not 1v1s. Their unmatched damage potential would give them numerous applications in group combat as well as being able to just absolutely delete someone they get the jump on in the open world.

The quick swap to thrown knives also gives them the ability to harass an opponent using mobility. Primarily so they can finish high health targets they got the drop on but didn't finish with their initial burst.
 

Tashka

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Henrik has stated multiple times combat in this game is meant to be based around group combat, not 1v1s.
No matter what Henrik says, most fights in this game are small groups, like 2v2, 3v3, maybe 5v5.

100% parrying is too important in this game to take it away from an already severely underpowered weapon class.
 

Kaemik

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No matter what Henrik says, most fights in this game are small groups, like 2v2, 3v3, maybe 5v5.

100% parrying is too important in this game to take it away from an already severely underpowered weapon class.

If it's severely underpowered you're already admitting it's useless as is. In that case simply making it a secondary, for a cost, is an improvement. Giving it 4 different buffs through other mechanics if you invest into it is a vast improvement.

That's what I do. Secondary weapon skill, lowered dual wield penalties (completely removed penalties if you main-hand it as well), quick-swap with throwing knives, lowered poison volume consumption.

It's a completely viable role in a small group fight. Just not a 1v1 against a melee. Unless you get the drop on them. Then it is.
 

Tashka

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If it's severely underpowered you're already admitting it's useless as is. In that case simply making it a secondary, for a cost, is an improvement. Giving it 4 different buffs through other mechanics if you invest into it is a vast improvement.

That's what I do. Secondary weapon skill, lowered dual wield penalties (completely removed penalties if you main-hand it as well), quick-swap with throwing knives, lowered poison volume consumption.

It's a completely viable role in a small group fight. Just not a 1v1 against a melee. Unless you get the drop on them. Then it is.
It's very hard to compensate for 30% of damage going through your parries. Anyone gets to you and you're one foot in the ether. If it's alvarin you basically have no chance - you will be bleeding HP faster than they bleed stamina. You yourself say that blocking is 100% required on all builds specifically for this reason.
 

Kaemik

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It's very hard to compensate for 30% of damage going through your parries. Anyone gets to you and you're one foot in the ether. If it's alvarin you basically have no chance - you will be bleeding HP faster than they bleed stamina. You yourself say that blocking is 100% required on all builds specifically for this reason.

It's largely in the combination of all three mechanics. A dagger spec build would be meant to be run with a DoT poison. DoT poisons would be about stack building with stacks capping out at 10 and each time a new stack is applied it refreshes all stacks.

Poison is automatically applied to compatible weapons if equipped. Different weapons consume different volumes with daggers/knives consuming 0.01kg per use. The lowest consumption rate of any weapons. Consumption rate is important as it has a length equip timer. You're probably not going to equip a new vial mid-fight. Poison also bypasses all armor so you only need deal 1 damage with your blade to get it's full effect.

With a dagger build you get in, quickly build stacks with your enhanced attack speed from dual-wield, then switch to throwing knives and harass when they turn their attention to you. You only need land enough knife throws to finish the work you already started (keep the stacks going until the target dies). They will slowly be killing you if it's an alvarin melee who can keep pace with you. But if you've got stacks built already they're probably not going to win.

Daggers dip heavily into a lot of what I suggest. They're not a sidethought, they're elevated to something really unique. But if all that fun/unique stuff didn't come with a significant downside it would be too powerful to give to them. A spear/shield alvarin would absolutely anhillate them head-to-head but it's also going to kill an enemy mage much more slowly than they would and be less valuable in a flank.

Like I said, 1v1, it's all about getting the jump. In group fights it's about letting your group set you up and then pouncing when you see the opportunity. It's very strong when it's in it's element. But yeah it can be countered pretty hard too.
 
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Tashka

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It's largely in the combination of all three mechanics. A dagger spec build would be meant to be run with a DoT poison. DoT poisons would be about stack building with stacks capping out at 10 and each time a new stack is applied it refreshes all stacks.

Poison is automatically applied to compatible weapons if equipped. Different weapons consume different volumes with daggers/knives consuming 0.01kg per use. The lowest consumption rate of any weapons. Consumption rate is important as it has a length equip timer. You're probably not going to equip a new vial mid-fight. Poison also bypasses all armor so you only need deal 1 damage with your blade to get it's full effect.

With a dagger build you get in, quickly build stacks with your enhanced attack speed from dual-wield, then switch to throwing knives and harass when they turn their attention to you. You only need land enough knife throws to finish the work you already started (keep the stacks going until the target dies). They will slowly be killing you if it's an alvarin melee who can keep pace with you. But if you've got stacks built already they're probably not going to win.

Daggers dip heavily into a lot of what I suggest. They're not a sidethought, they're elevated to something really unique. But if all that fun/unique stuff didn't come with a significant downside it would be too powerful to give to them. A spear/shield alvarin would absolutely anhillate them head-to-head but it's also going to kill an enemy mage much more slowly than they would and be less valuable in a flank.

Like I said, 1v1, it's all about getting the jump. In group fights it's about letting your group set you up and then pouncing when you see the opportunity. It's very strong when it's in it's element. But yeah it can be countered pretty hard too.
Dagger's pitiful range and the lack of versatility in attack directions is already a significant downside. The role of dagger rats is already this - to flank, to rat, to dive. As it is now, skills being equal, a proper mellee weapon wielder will absolutely destroy a dagger rat BUT since a dagger can parry full damage, you can survive long enough for your friends to come or the opponent to drain their stamina. 30% chip damage would be not a downside but a deal breaker. Daggers are so bad that they just need a buff, and they don't need any additional "downsides" to come with it.
 

Kaemik

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Dagger's pitiful range and the lack of versatility in attack directions is already a significant downside. The role of dagger rats is already this - to flank, to rat, to dive. As it is now, skills being equal, a proper mellee weapon wielder will absolutely destroy a dagger rat BUT since a dagger can parry full damage, you can survive long enough for your friends to come or the opponent to drain their stamina. 30% chip damage would be not a downside but a deal breaker. Daggers are so bad that they just need a buff, and they don't need any additional "downsides" to come with it.

All numbers I throw out are spitball figures intended to be tested and rebalanced. If true, then you could increase it a bit. But I think you're seriously underestimating the combined power of all those buffs working together. The intent with some of these builds is not just to be a slightly different version of what we already have. It's to open up entirely new build options that lend the game genuine variety.
 

Kaemik

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Veterinary should really be a Secondary.

I'd agree with that, though I would say it should be a child of anatomy. Not sure mages should get it for free but I fully agree with giving it to everyone who can bandage themselves which is basically all non-mages and some mages.

Another one I think I might add to the list is potion utilization. Poisons need their own primary when they make it in but making heal pots need a primary to be fully effective is kind of a slap in the face to alchemists. I can pick up a stack of 100 bandages for some pocket lint. Potions aren't precisely cheap, especially the good ones. Why add a primary requirement ontop of that?
 

Domtomsen

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Completely agree. Veterinary should be a secondary under Anatomy. or maybe Advanced Creature Control.
But seeing that it still is like that in MO1, i dont think that they will ever change that.
 

Tashka

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I really don't like the idea of daggers being something that either kills you or not, with almost no consideration for skill. Especially if it involves faster swings which will work great against players with over 100 ping like myself, but not so much against EU players.

Now if we could apply different types poisons on any weapon, but poisoning would only work on weakspots, then daggers could become something. Right now you can just run around a dagger mage swinging your sword in all directions. To riposte in such situation is often more dangerous for a mage than it is for the opponent. If you miss, and it's extremely easy to miss with a dagger, you can't parry the next swing. If you hit, your damage most likely not worth the risk. If the dagger guy has a shield, you can quickly drain his stamina by doing that.

With poisons, daggers would be much more threatening. You never know if it will poison you, blind you for half a second, slow down your movement speed, corrupt you, drain your stamina or whatever. You'll have to be much more careful facing someone with a mercy dagger - in all likeliness they still won't kill you, but may have a chance to escape and tlash you from distance, or put a debuff on you that will make you an easy target for their friends.

And since it can be applied to any weapon, weakspot may finally be worth chasing on something else and not just mercy dagger. Skinny 136hp veelas may become a thing you see more often than once in a lifetime.