Mounted Build Overhaul

Kaemik

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These suggestions are linked to the core idea of this topic and balance with other mechanics I'll be adding to this topic. In short, 300 primaries are freed up by making sprinting, combat maneuvering, and blocking secondaries. This allows new primaries to be added to every role. This is also the 4th topic in the series with other topics on foot-melee, foot-ranges, and foot-magic already existing. This topic will reference many of those mechanics and is balanced around some ideas contained within such as the buff against cavalry polearms receive in the melee topic.

There are three really big objectives I'm aiming for with these ideas:
1. Nerfing the advantage mounted builds have in traversing the map to remove it from the equation in terms of their combat balance.
2. Better define the cav roles and their niches to make them a solid addition to group combat without having them come to dominate it.
3. Creating distinct and engaging gameplay for a role that has not only been neglected by MO2 but the entire MMORPG genre so that it can better serve as a major selling point for this title.

HORSE/MOUNT REBALANCING

Controlled Riding / Swift Riding Rebalance

Controlled riding and swift riding no longer increase speed for decrease stam usage for riding at 1-3 speeds. Controlled riding is now a defensive buff for mounts much like defensive stance for players. Swift riding now is a stam reduction while 4 speeding.

Even with 100 swift riding 2-3 speed should still be the most effective way to cross long distances. The point of this change is simple. With these changes crossing the map with no mount-related primaries is just as efficient as doing so with mount-related primaries. People with no mounted training still have a huge disadvantage in a big mounted vs. mounted fight but they can at least ride at the same speed as everyone else.

Horse Rebalancing

Horses should have their 1-3 speed and stamina rebalanced so that they are more equivalent in overall speed when crossing long distances. However, their 4-speed traits should still favor faster mounts as they do now making faster mounts able to gain on and dispatch opponents in actual combat far more easily. Horses on the slower end of the spectrum should be given more of a health and stam advantage than they currently have but not to a huge degree.

The biggest rebalance change should come in the form of mount armor. Different breeds should have different cut-offs before armor makes their mount start to lose weight, and different rates of speed loss once that cutoff is hit. The end outcome should be that while horses retain their current speed balances if unarmored, certain horses become the new fastest if assuming armor of a certain weight. For instance, a jotun horse would be the slowest by default, but likely the fastest in tungsteel with ironfur padding as it would suffer far less speed reduction than faster horse types.

This greater armor weight will come into play more in the section on trampling.

Multi-Rider Mounts

Horses should almost immediately be updated to have some types which allow for 2 riders, and as new mount types are introduced the number of riders they can carry should be a major consideration with 5-10 rider mounts even being a thing in the not-too-distant future.

One of the biggest disadvantages to play a foot-only build is your mount is frequently going to die the moment you dismount to engage in your proper fighting style. This continues to be an issue even with the long-distance-travel rebalances suggested above.

Multi-rider mounts address this issue by allowing some players to essentially fill the role of drop ship pilots. Depositing footies onto the frontline and then continuing to fight mounted themselves. This allows players to viably drop mounted combat from their build entirely to focus on foot-only gameplay.

NEW MECHANIC, TRAMPLING

Impacting a player on foot while on a charging mount should do damage to the player impacted and push (but not knockdown) the player slightly forward and a bit to the side as if bashed with a shield. Trampling should be based on two hidden stats. Trample value of the rider (based on horse weight and horse armor weight) vs. trample resist of the player impacted (based on player weight and player armor weight with additional bonuses for balance and the equipoise clade).

Each time a player tramples someone it should cost them stam and deal damage to the player trampled. Additionally, if the trample value of the rider is seriously low vs. trample resist of the character being hit there should be a threshold at which it actually starts dealing damage to the mount in addition to the target. This damage WOULD be subject to blunt resist from armor.

So a player riding a desert horse in silk armor into a cluster of thur/khals in steel armor may hurt themselves more than their targets. A player riding a jotun in tungsteel into a squad of alvarin would inflict a lot of damage.

Trampling is NOT meant to be a one-shot mechanic even in a best case scenario. The idea of trampling is that if built for it, a heavy cavalry build can ride through clusters of infantry that do not counter with polearms and inflict multiple small/moderate damage hits to help their team. A small squad of heavy cav working in unison could inflict considerable damage on behalf of their team. Heavy cav are strongest when they soften the enemy line for pushes by allied footies with hammer and anvil tactics. Without allied foot support, they are not in their strongest context.

(Note, polearms as described in my melee thread are also a MAJOR counter to heavy cav trying to break a foot force without allied foot support)

NEW SKILLS

Mounted Armor Training(Pri), (Child of Mounted Combat) - Mounted armor is now nerfed to work similar to player armor where there is a max armor value and major penalties for exceeding it. This value should be shown in the pet window. Mounted armor training raises the max cap.

Spirited Charge(Sec), (Child of Mounted Combat and Mounted Charge) - Activated ability that drains significant horse stam in exchange for a 5-second speed boost. This speed boost applies a turn speed debuff that scales significantly based on horse armor weight so that lightly armored horses suffer very little and heavily armored horses suffer quite a bit.

Hand-and-a-Half-Weapons(Pri), (Child of Melee Combat) - This skill category opens up hand and a half weapons by scaling damage up to it's intended value. These are variants of all 1h weapons (except spears) which are longer than normal for use on horseback. The regular skill is still needed as well, so for instance a bastard sword would require swords AND hand-and-a-half weapons. Hand and a half weapons can charge a left or right strike just like couching a lance so that they develiver a blow to opponents they make contact with. Additionally, they can hit multiple targets consecutively with a couched hit needing no recharge. These hits suffer a penalty against other mounted opponents though. (Keeping lances as the superior melee weapon in cav vs. cav.) Hand and a half weapons consume a lot of stamina when used as regular weapons. This isn't meant to make them bad on foot, but more to balance them with regular one handed weapons on foot so that the mounted value is really what you're spending the primaries on.

Kheshig's Charge(Sec), (Child of Sprited Charge and Dual Wielding) - A special charge that allows the player to hold a left and right attack at the same time using dual-wielded-weapons.

CHANGED SKILLS

Mounted Charge(Sec) - This skill is now a child of controlled riding and not mounted combat. It applies to thrown ranged weapons in addition to melee weapons. It's also entirely rebalanced so that attacking someone from a stationary mount does the same damage as fighting on foot and adding speed increases the attack up to the max values as it does now with 100 charge.

MOUNTED MAGE/HEALING CHANGES

Casting time is no longer debuffed in mounted combat. This is partially to catch up mounted magic to the fact mounted magery was added so the additional 100 primary investment is now part of the cost of being a mounted mage.

However to counteract this healing received by mounts is now halved when being healed by the rider. This ALSO applies to veterinary which can now be used on your own mount while riding it, somewhat diminishing the massive advantage mages have in being the only mounted build that can heal their own mounts.

Those of you who have read over my ideas on separating mages into int mages (focused on damage) and psyche mages (focused on healing) may say "This is unfair to psyche mages!" This is the reason the debuff applies ONLY to your own mount. Healing your own mount is always insanely powerful to have and not doing this makes it too powerful. Psyche mages are actually buffed by these two changes together when functioning as the healer for a squad of cav and kind of break even when just focusing heals on their own mount.
 
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Kaemik

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MOUNTED ARCHER

Mounted archer is actually massively impacted both by these changes and the changes I describe in my ranged combat thread despite having no major changes outlined in this specific thread. (Other than the mount changes and not having access to mounted armor training without taking MC). Mounted archers are deadly in that they can keep distance on heavy cavalry and plink them with arrows while heavy cav lacking ranged options can do little to respond as they lack the speed and maneuverability to catch them. They are also still the bane of those who use horses without much cav specific training with controlled riding now giving them an even bigger advantage in cav vs. cav fights against such opponents in exchange for losing their mobility advantage over long distances. And as always if played smart there is literally no way a foot opponent without ranged options can beat them.

Light MC are a role almost specifically designed to take down MAs. Due to the fact they lose less maneuverability in a spirited charge they can use it to gain on MA opponents, which is particularly deadly if they possess a lance or spear.

Hard Counter: Foot opponents without range
Strong Vs: Heavy MC
Weak Vs: Light MC, Foot Archers,
VERY Weak Vs: Javelineers and Slingers

Favorable Situations: Chasing fleeing opponents
Unfavorable Situations: Rough terrain, cliffs, buildings etc.

HEAVY CAVALRY

Heavy cavalry are mounted combat builds with heavy armor on a big horse. They are very resistant to damage and adept at plowing through groups of foot fighters. They work best with hammer and anvil tactics, softening up the enemy footies with many small to moderate hits to allow allied footies to press in and take the advantage. They also can inflict a lot more damage by properly working as a team with other heavy cav.

Their biggest weakness is their very poor ability to turn while charging and overall lack of speed vs. lightly armored cav leaving them a bit open to enemy MAs or even light cav lancers in the right context. Mounted mages are insanely deadly in this context as they cut right through their horse's heavy armor. Polearms are also insanely deadly against them if they charge infantry who are able to turn and face them.

Strong Vs: Small/lightly Armored Footies
Weak Vs: Polearms, MAs
VERY Weak Vs: MAs and Mounted Mages

Favorable Situations: Hitting the flank of a group of footies. Working alongside other heavy MC.
Unfavorable Situations: Rough terrain, cliffs, buildings etc. Particularly when facing ranged footies.

LIGHT CAV

Light cav are melee cav without heavy armor. They have extreme speed and agility serving the role that MC currently serve in-game except with a gap closer that makes them an even more major threat to MAs.

This means these are actually one of the worst builds in the game in terms of the number of tactics they counter in a head-to-head fight but they do have a great mobility advantage in many situations to make up for this, making their role MA eradication and kill confirmers. MMs are even worse as these builds can easily close on them, and are less dependent on armor, making mages very open to them as they have to forgo turning to charge their spells.

Strong Vs: MAs, Mounted Mages
Weak Vs: Prettymuch everything except lanceless heavy cav
VERY Weak Vs: Polearms and Foot Archers

Favorable Situations: Confirming kills on fleeing opponents
Unfavorable Situations: Rough terrain, cliffs, buildings etc. Any kind of fair fight against anything on foot.

MOUNTED INT MAGE

Like MAs these are lighter builds that specialize at harassing at a range. They have a weakness of not being able to turn as they charge attacks that can leave them more vulnerable than MAs in some circumstances. But the strength of being able to ignore enemy armor and some unique advantages spellcasting can offer.

Hard Counter: Foot opponents without range
Strong Vs: Heavy MC
Weak Vs: Light MC, Foot Archers, Javelineers and Slingers

Favorable Situations: Chasing fleeing opponents. Fighting heavily armored opponents.
Unfavorable Situations: Rough terrain, cliffs, buildings etc.

MOUNTED PSY MAGE

These mages function as healers for cav squads or healers that can easily get where they are needed to assist allies on foot. Without mixing in other skills have no offensive options so their strengths depend on what they are mixed with.

Weak Vs: MA, Heavy MC, Mounted Int Mage
Very Weak Vs: Light MC

Favorable Situations: A good team of supporting allies, particularly mounted allies.
Unfavorable Situations: Rough terrain, cliffs, buildings etc.

MOUNTED THROWN WEAPON FIGHTER

Thrown weapons get the benefit of having increased damage like a melee weapon when used from a charging mount. This makes thrown swords, axes, and javelins all quite deadly options to consider for those looking for ranged mounted options. The fact they are charged based though makes them a bit less versatile than a bow as between their shorter range and need to be charging at their target they will find it more difficult to harass enemies who can respond with attacks that have an even limited range. Additionally thrown axes and swords can be parried if the opponent is watching the incoming attack. This does not matter against enemy mounts though.

Strong Vs: Heavy MC, Foot opponents without range, MAs and MM
Weak Vs: Foot Archers
VERY Weak Vs: Javelineers and Slingers

Favorable Situations: Chasing fleeing opponents, eliminating enemy mounts, flanking unwary foot forces.
Unfavorable Situations: Rough terrain, cliffs, buildings etc. Facing an enemy force with a lot of short ranged damage or who is alert enough to parry.
 
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Kaemik

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The huge dynamic I like about these suggestions combined with my others is:

1. It opens up a whole array of mounted roles with various battlefield applications. And some of them would be very fun to play IMO.

2. Most of the specialized cavalry builds actually would be formidable on foot as well with sprinting and combat maneuvering as secondaries but the additional primaries I added to foot melee / archery still make it so each role has an edge in their preferred combat style (mounted or unmounted).

3. These changes open up foot-only builds as entirely viable for primary characters of people with only one account. Allowing for decent mounted builds without further inflaming existing map-mobility disparities.
 

Emdash

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HEY.

Def like a lot of these suggestions, as I have thought of, at least, the problems before. I think it's POSSIBLE you made too many changes, some level of bloat per se (shout to food guy,)

things I feel that need to be absolutely added that you mentioned are:

2 seater mounts. Prol w/ some sort of a disadvantage in speed and balance? Just to get you there so that we don't end up as much with lancing MAs lol.

Maybe not horse armor training, but def mounts that 'wear armor' better, so like a desert would be best in light armor where as a heavier horse like a jotun would be better at wearing heavy armor.

Then there needs to be some way to close the gap as MC (and only MC IMO, because if other classes can use this, it kinda makes it the same.)

Oh I also think there should be a mount that can carry stax like a molva if they aren't gonna add molvas, maybe two ( I think I said this before??) like Jotun and Mongrel.

I'm not entirely sure the level of changes to primaries and all is necessary, but maybe it is.
 

Kaemik

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Yeah, so it's part of a series of posts where I alter or overhaul literally every role in the game. As this is the 2nd to last in the series (the last one will be a beast master focused post) it's the first that I've really been able to go into detail on how the roles opened up would all interact with eachother.

What I hope anyone who actually reads all these can see, is that each role is kind of built with consideration to how all the different roles would fit together.

The reason I've proposed such widesweeping changes (beyond my own entertainment in writing something like this) is that I feel that in considering how each role interacts with each other, and attempting to give each role it's own niche and purpose in the game, I feel I've done something that frankly has not been done by SV.

I think the biggest evidence of that is mounted combat. In my proposed ideas Heavy mounted combat builds are intended as an AoE class that supports their own frontline in hammer and anvil tactics. Softening the enemy ranks to allow allies to push. This is unique, does not exist in the game currently, is useful, and does not greatly diminish the usefulness of any other current role.

Light cav is meant as a counter to MAs and MM they can't just run away from once they start losing. The spirited charge without the unbuffed turning basically makes their role. Mind you this is different from just "killing horses". They are specifically meant to counter run-and-gun horse builds.

What role does any variation of MC currently serve that some other doesn't as well right now though? Horse killing? So do MAs, at a range. Which is why everyone plays MA and almost nobody plays MC. This is just one of example of the many ways SV clearly hasn't thought out role interaction or found a unique application for each role. My huge series of wide sweeping proposals actually ensures that every role has applications where it is strong and it is weak so that no build is useless and you have a lot of options in terms of how you can benefit your group.
 

Emdash

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I also forgot to say the idea of mounted only weps (like of each type,) or weps that are designed for mounted kinda like you suggested is cool. I only used 2h axe cuz that's fulfilling and I was 2 nub when they had GIANT HAMMERS. So, like a subtype of each weapon, maybe even add in books, but don't go as crazy as the Risar thing (I still can't fkin believe they broke the risar thing into like 20 books.)

All I'm saying is none of it seems unsound, but maybe it's not as necessary. DEF need to get mounted combat back in the mix, though. That added a lot even tho people were mad. Yea it was OP, but a lot of stuff was OP. Hopefully nothing w/ a set threshold of dmg that you need to hit to dismount ( do you dislike dismount?)

And yea I def wanna build light cav. It's like oh let's try it, 2 arrows later... uded. haha. But yeah, I hope to see MC make a glorious return at least to counter some of the MAs.
 

Kaemik

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All I'm saying is none of it seems unsound, but maybe it's not as necessary. DEF need to get mounted combat back in the mix, though. That added a lot even tho people were mad. Yea it was OP, but a lot of stuff was OP. Hopefully nothing w/ a set threshold of dmg that you need to hit to dismount ( do you dislike dismount?)

One of the best aspects of MO2 combat is the complete lack of hard CC. Hard CC being anything that shuts down your character and takes away control from the player short of full-on death. Stuns, knockdocks, roots, etc.

Dismounting seems to be a form of hard CC for builds designed to fight mounted. I'm not entirely against its existence, but should it exist at all it should be exceedingly rare. That's why the system I propose is wholly built around counter-roles to cavalry instead of just ramping up the dismount options.
 

Emdash

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One of the best aspects of MO2 combat is the complete lack of hard CC. Hard CC being anything that shuts down your character and takes away control from the player short of full-on death. Stuns, knockdocks, roots, etc.

Dismounting seems to be a form of hard CC for builds designed to fight mounted. I'm not entirely against its existence, but should it exist at all it should be exceedingly rare. That's why the system I propose is wholly built around counter-roles to cavalry instead of just ramping up the dismount options.

yea I remem talking to cerqo about melee mechanics, and he said "nothing should lock you out of inputs." I personally do not agree, but I don't think it matters per se. I think CC is just fine in circumstances, penalties, etc... it's all good for me. But yea in 1 the whole trample people thing was kinda wack, as was MC being only about dismount. Still, I really want dismount to have a place, somehow.
 

Kaemik

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yea I remem talking to cerqo about melee mechanics, and he said "nothing should lock you out of inputs." I personally do not agree, but I don't think it matters per se. I think CC is just fine in circumstances, penalties, etc... it's all good for me. But yea in 1 the whole trample people thing was kinda wack, as was MC being only about dismount. Still, I really want dismount to have a place, somehow.

I really think this game could use more "soft CC". Slows, gravity wells, debuffs, blinds etc. that just obscure player vision without blocking the ability to give input.

Having dismounts isn't terrible but if they become the focus of mounted combat I think they'd ruin it. Especially ranged dismounts. They should just never exist.
 
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Melkhia

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Those are some very good points! This could be a great change.
It's giving me some build ideas with magic hybrids like,
to ride a wing of pestilence, surrounded by an aura of dark and fetid fog. Arriving silently onto the destination, circling and trapping enemies by surprise by using disrupting spells to confuse the field.
 

Emdash

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I really think this game could use more "soft CC". Slows, gravity wells, debuffs, blinds etc. that just obscure player vision without blocking the ability to give input.

Having dismounts isn't terrible but if they become the focus of mounted combat I think they'd ruin it. Especially ranged dismounts. They should just never exist.

agree w/ ranged. Nothing is quite like the feeling of Bunny Fufuing someone off their horse tho.