Make Magic Fun and Skillful Again

[Beatel]

This thread is a culmination of many discussions on how to make the current magic systems more skill based and fun to use, while retaining the current mechanics. This is my attempt at summarizing the details for a more pleasant and rewarding system, whether you're a caster or fighting against one.​

Introduction​

The changes here should only require modifications to the existing spells: damage, cast times, mana, range, additional effects, or calculations. This means new systems do not have to be developed and the core of magic in Mortal Online 2 remains the same.

Starvault will never make drastic reworks to their systems, so there needs to be a way to improve it in a way that can be efficiently implemented.

This will be a bit lengthy, but I've tried to minimize elaborate ramblings. I've had many conversations and valuable insight from players across multiple playstyles since release. I know it won't please everyone, but improvements are needed and I want mages, hybrids, and fighters to all feel good about magic in this game (grr mage bad remove magic).

!!! Any numbers noted below are examples only, not set numbers I've balanced; they are there to help you understand the idea !!!

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Ecumenical​

1) Reduce overall damage of Ecumenical spells. 30-50% reductions depending on where the balance fits best.​

These spells should not have extreme damage application on their own.​

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2a) Add unique effects to individual spells, that allow follow up Ecumenical spells to deal more damage, or other useful debuffs.​

These effects should be localized to the caster, as being able to stack debuffs on a target would just be too powerful if coordinated with a group.​

Examples (all effects apply only to Ecumenical spells and chaining them together):​

• Outburst: Your next spell cast deals +5% damage.
• Lightning: Target has -20% magic resistance for 10 seconds.

2b) For successive Ecumenical spells successfully cast on target, increase Ecumenical damage by an amount.​

A cap for how many times this stacks is reasonable.​

3) A combination of both 2a and 2b? For either of these ideas, some sort of build-up should apply on the target.​

This build up will have a short timer, it can wear off or be purified.​

Overall build up of damage should match current damage, or even consider increasing it, rewarding successful skilled plays.​

This forces specialization to use Ecumenical with increasing effectiveness.

Defensively​

If a target can avoid casts long enough or purify the build up, they are able to manage the threat a caster can pose. The caster however will be rewarded through making a successful play.

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Elementalism​

1) Reduce damage of all main damage dealing spells; 50-80% reductions depending on where the balance fits best.​

These spells should not have extreme damage application on their own.​

• Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Static Charge, etc.

2) Reduce or keep current damage of spells that cause effects which other spells can trigger​

• Scouring Stream, Tarball, etc.

3) Allow effects to persist once applied, expiring only after the timer or use the appropriate Elementalism spells to "purify" them​

4) Triggered combinations deal BONUS damage if successful.​

Bonus damage could match current damage, or even consider increasing it, rewarding successful skilled plays.​

Example:​

1. I cast Scouring Stream on a group to apply drenched.
2. Myself or another mage can follow up with Lightning Bolt, causing massive area damage on drenched targets, minimal base damage on others.
3. If the target is or has a friendly Elementalist, before the next spell hits they can remove the drenchedeffect with one of the wind spells.
   • Changes to remove damage from spells like Dust Burst, Sand Spout, and Sand Barrier would benefit friendly usage.

Since the release of Elementalism, the use of conditional effects to trigger extra damage on a target has not been worthwhile. It is much more efficient to just cast a main damage spell twice, like fireball.

This has made the majority of 60! spells useless in most fights, while some of those are useful only in extremely situational circumstances. These improvements mean the vast majority of these spells are now useful.

This emphasizes skillfully combining the primer with the follow up damage spell. This also gives targets the time to purify effects before the follow up spell can land, giving more utilization to the less used Elemental spells (Mending Vapors, Stilling Mist, etc.).

Now, Elementalism becomes more strategic, landing and purifying the right spells to build up or prevent devastating damage, and encouraging group cohesion.

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Necromancy​

Similar to Ecumenical changes, however if we wanted to fit the theme of the school, we can mix the ideas of Elementalism and Ecumenical to make it unique:

1) Reduce damage of all main damage dealing spells; 30-50% reductions depending on where the balance fits best.​

These spells should not have extreme damage application on their own.​

2) Allow ritual ash based spells to be the initial cast to create a build up on targets.​

If Auw Surge, Cloud of Ashes, Miasma, or Atrophy are applied to a target, that target receives bonus damage from follow up necromancy spells like Death Hand.​

Bonus damage could match current damage, or even consider increasing it, rewarding successful skilled plays.​

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Conclusion​

One of the biggest criticisms of magic since release is the inherent lack of "skill-based" gameplay. Aside from being able to aim a spell and situational awareness, this is a fairly common trope, and hopefully this has been addressed alongside other magic issues.

On Mage Defenses​

Heavy armor, shields, trinkets, clade gifts, and mastery resists... how do we factor survivability while now requiring more strategic, prolonged fights? Some thoughts:

1. Mana efficiency and regeneration (see section below on this).​

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2. Burst damage. With the ability to chain spells into devastating combinations, you can slightly shift offensive power into your defense. Proper positioning should mean if a target ignores your spell build up, they risk a follow up with massive damage.​

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3. Enchanted resist armor. Another popular suggestion; the use of various materials like exotic scales, dyes, and enchantments (all upcoming systems), means we could specialize in certain defensive capabilities.​

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4. Ecumenical Reactive Shield. Henrik, do it. With or without these changes, give us an opportunity to defend without a dagger. I know you might want mages to play sword and board, but it remains ones of the biggest "this is weird and not fun" moments with new players wanting to play mage.​

On Parrying Spells​

The ability to "parry" spells is an idea, however this seems like a desperate solution to address the issues present.
These improvements should alleviate (not solve) many problems of being on the receiving end of spells:

• Unblockable (most spells outside of reflecting)
• No resist (Elementalism; also, see enchanted armor above)
• Spamming one spell repeatedly to win (no skill, and personally not rewarding gameplay)

Avoid being hit and purifying buildup lets you to manage the magic damage you receive. If you ignore it, the effects will hurt.

On Mana Regeneration and Efficiency​

Recent changes to Mental Leech have only highlighted magic gameplay issues again, but they've been here for years. There are a couple ideas improving mana, rewarding the caster for skilled gameplay:

1. Mana efficiency tied into successful combos, reducing the amount spent for having the proper buildup or casting successive spells.​

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2. Refund mana for successful combinations of spells, or mind hits. Mind hits should be useful.​

On Spiritism​

I've left Spiritism out, as it is not a huge factor in fights (aside from Mental Projectile). My opinion it should remain a support school; e.g.:

1. Public resurrection, through a beacon or other means.​

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2. Other ways to spend my mana on something useful when I have no other use for it, it fits the theme of Spiritism.​

 

[Beatel]

Notes​

Ecumenical​

Cast times and spell range

• Consideration should be given to these as well with the above changes. Overall, there shouldn't be an increase in damage per second, as we are looking to increase TTK across the board to allow people to play strategically.
  • Cast time: Allow initial casts to be faster, and sequential spells increase in cast time. This allows you to get your build up going to apply damage. Again, the idea is to be a threat to melee approaching you, but allowing the melee to also have time to react and back off. This is to benefit the mages that can't just run away, and the ones that do need to commit a bit more to actually apply damage.
  • Range: Perhaps adjust ranges to fit within a narrower band. Range, cast time, and damage are no longer the biggest factors in when determining which spell to use, as you'll need to use multiple varied spells to actually succeed.
    • An example could be to bring all these spells in line with range, 1000-2000cm. To apply damage you need to focus on landing multiple spells, and this requires dex mages to commit closer to a fight to be effective.

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Elementalism​

Propulsion

• Stone, Hailstone, Ember, Ignition, Shock
  • These spells specifically should remain as is. They provide very well balanced utility/damage for those who don't specialize in Elementalism, and for those that do. The general idea was to boost everything else, and make coordinated gameplay and the rest of the spellbook meaningful. (Yes, Ingition definitely needs some tuning)

Weather

• We could further enhance the situational gameplay of Elementalism with the use with weather, controlling conditions to add slight enhancements to the power of spells (e.g. heat for Fireball: if its too cold, damage penalties apply; inversely hot conditions maximize damage)

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Blunt, slash, and pierce damage inclusion

• I'm sure there was some initial reason for including this (footie resists), but a lot has changed since the release of this school in regards to spell defenses, mastery was much later. With the above changes, just remove this and make it all elemental damage.

Necromancy​

Death Hand

• After a follow up discussion with a fellow great mage, I was reminded of a similar thought I had about Death Hand being more of a survival spell. This would be a great change, keep the survival based aspect of the spell, and force mages to use a few other options to apply damage:
  • To quote them: "It should be low mana cost, high healing, lower damage spell." It should be able to used more frequently, allowing the mages that are forced to commit a survival option, without simultaneously applying devastating damage.

(My apologies for so many edits. If you've already read through things and I've changed it, I'm just trying to make sure I'm clear and not misstating things)

 

[Kashyk]

i dont know much about magic but this all sounds well thought out

ive heard people talk about mages in seiges running a fairly cheap kit compared to footies
any thoughts about that ?

i was thinking about the idea people were talking about staffs for mages

something like mages having alot of their damage nerfed and to bring it back up by using a staff that could go from cheap to ultra expensive
crafted with alot of gems or things like that that could boost specific schools or w/e
also combating naked mages with this

 

[Beatel]

Cost of kits has so many components.

If we had more game loops to keep our miners and other gatherers motivated, perhaps the availability of things like steel would become more competitive, lowering the cost.

Changes like my proposed elementalism improvements would force mages to use more diverse ingredients, and while some of those aren't necessarily expensive (purified water), you'd still need to ensure these materials are stocked up where you'll be rekitting. More demand would definitely increase the cost of some of the those ingredients. Imagine if weather was a larger influence on damage effectiveness; if you didn't have the right reagents for the weather, you'd need to be able to change it.

As far as ecumenical goes, I'm not a fan of the difference in skillsets between casting and melee, and the cost of this spellschool in particular is quite powerful for the investment; it should at least involve more skilled gameplay to be as effective as it is.

These are just ideas, I don't have all the answers, but the economy of sets is tied to a few ongoing problems more than "I can just buy vendor reagents to nuke some footies".

 

[Embuscade]

I'll read it again. Overall, it seems fine to me, but I haven't played in a long time, so I don't know how much has changed to make it abusive or not.

Je relirait, globalement ça me paraît pas mal, mais j'ai pas rejouer depuis longtemps donc je ne sais pas à quel point il y a eut des changement ou pas pour rendre cela abusés ou non.

 

[Embuscade]

Personnellement ce que j'aimerait dans ce jeu, c'est réussir à différencier mes alliés de mes ennemis d'alliance via comme une aura qui entoure les gens (le bouclier dans HALO qui ce regène tout seul sur le spartiate.) quelques choses dans le genre qui ressemblerai au vomi dans Left4Dead2.

Des couleurs pour savoir qui est qui, sans trop me prendre la tête, ainsi avec de la hauteur ça serait beaucoup plus facile de voir comment ce déroules les combats et savoir qui visés, faudrait pas que cela soit éternelle mais genre un court cooldown moins de 25minutes, les fleurs pourrait servir à ça ?

Personally, what I would like in this game is to be able to differentiate my allies from my enemies via something like an aura surrounding people (the shield in HALO that regenerates itself on the Spartan). Something like that, which would resemble the vomit in Left4Dead2.

Colors to tell who's who, without having to think too hard, so with height it would be much easier to see how the fights are going and know who's being targeted. It shouldn't be forever, but more like a short cooldown of less than 25 minutes. Could flowers be used for that?

Initially, I planned to keep his ideas to myself for a future that will never come, and now I just want to end my life, so here's a gift.

 

[Beatel]

Personnellement ce que j'aimerait dans ce jeu, c'est réussir à différencier mes alliés de mes ennemis d'alliance via comme une aura qui entoure les gens (le bouclier dans HALO qui ce regène tout seul sur le spartiate.) quelques choses dans le genre qui ressemblerai au vomi dans Left4Dead2.

Des couleurs pour savoir qui est qui, sans trop me prendre la tête, ainsi avec de la hauteur ça serait beaucoup plus facile de voir comment ce déroules les combats et savoir qui visés, faudrait pas que cela soit éternelle mais genre un court cooldown moins de 25minutes, les fleurs pourrait servir à ça ?

Personally, what I would like in this game is to be able to differentiate my allies from my enemies via something like an aura surrounding people (the shield in HALO that regenerates itself on the Spartan). Something like that, which would resemble the vomit in Left4Dead2.

Colors to tell who's who, without having to think too hard, so with height it would be much easier to see how the fights are going and know who's being targeted. It shouldn't be forever, but more like a short cooldown of less than 25 minutes. Could flowers be used for that?

Initially, I planned to keep his ideas to myself for a future that will never come, and now I just want to end my life, so here's a gift.

We at least have guild heraldry and tabards now, which definitely helps. Aside from that I agree on more clarity.

I've actually submitted an idea in the past about adding colored tags to the nameplates, to help differentiate personal "standing or status" to guilds and players, that you can set yourself. This leaves the colored nameplate to remain as it currently is, with additional information. Similar to how Eve Online does it.

There are far too many people I meet in this game that I may be friendly with, but not their guilds, and the opposite true as well. Expecting players to remember every encounter is a bit much....

 

[Gnidex]

We at least have guild heraldry and tabards now, which definitely helps. Aside from that I agree on more clarity.

I've actually submitted an idea in the past about adding colored tags to the nameplates, to help differentiate personal "standing or status" to guilds and players, that you can set yourself. This leaves the colored nameplate to remain as it currently is, with additional information. Similar to how Eve Online does it.

There are far too many people I meet in this game that I may be friendly with, but not their guilds, and the opposite true as well. Expecting players to remember every encounter is a bit much....

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I really don't understand how SV doesn't use the few successful sandbox full loot pvp mmorpgs examples of Eve and Albion as blueprints on how to develop security zones, standings, resource trading and etc...

After all the only good things MO2 has going for it were directly copied from Ultima Online (down to actual skill names like Taste identification). Whatever they invent on their own is either an utter failure (TC anyone?) Or just too barebones and tedious.

Unfortunately they failed to see how all these games also implement escape mechanisms from zergs which MO2 doesn't have at all. The result is newbs getting ganked out of the game leaving only bittervets playing on a dwindling population.