Low pop and frustration.

Kaemik

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Nov 28, 2020
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note: Disregarding the Crowfall comment because, even if that game did have a political faction system like I'm describing, which it doesn't, it would not be the reason it is terrible. There are plenty of other reasons Crowfall is fubar

TBH last time I played Crowfall it was in a significantly better state than MO2 currently is. I basically only quit because I recognized that while I love being #1 on outpost captures for a campaign, getting serious about that game means achieving basically nothing IRL for that campaign's duration.

I mean it had other flaws, and plenty of them. But so does MO2. Felt like it's a better state if you're actually willing to completely no-life it the way it's meant to be.
 

Jatix

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Sep 30, 2020
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People like the terrible murder/flag BS. They would like it even more with wardecs, alliances, and TC. There is no need for convoluted faction systems. People play these games to have maximum freedom that is unachievable in theme parks. That is the only thing that actually makes this game stand out.
I'm in the middle. I get what he's saying, the current system is just a joke and doesnt even accomplish its goal, and just spits in the face of anyone who kills anyone. but I still want freedom. The game would be much better off with a more simple system like mo1, but with like towns being no pvp with player collision turned off. then we could have lawless zones that dont even give MC's. And then in the middle normal zones like MO1.

The current issue with the flagging we have now is its needed to stop mount killings and stuff that would kill the game extra fast if they happened more. Town griefing is really bad for the pop. Which is why I feel like in town pvp should just be turned off. I loved fighting in tind out of guard range and stuff in MO1. but I'd take town pvp disabled over the shit ass flagging system we have now that you lose standing just for being grey. I hate the standing system altogether. I just want red and blue back.

I obviously want to be able to kill and grief as much as I want. The issue is that the games I want to play are always dead. Then in an attempt to make them not dead they make them shit (and then they still die lmao). Devs need to find a balance that stop nubs from getting slammed too hard while also not defeating the purpose of the game (like the trash standing system we have now).

I mean it had other flaws, and plenty of them. But so does MO2. Felt like it's a better state if you're actually willing to completely no-life it the way it's meant to be.
This is why it bugs me when people defend MO2's pointless time sinks. Most of my gaming is 2 hours before bed. Walking 20 mins to a priest, is a complete waste of time that I could be playing any other game. Most mmo's you wont get far in 2 hours a night. The difference is my runescape ironman is starting to make progress. All the 2 hour afk sessions while playing other games is adding up. but 2 hours in MO2 can make 0 progress. It could be 90% travel.
 
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Tashka

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Dec 4, 2021
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I think maybe you and the 300 other people who will be playing if they continue with it do.
I'm sorry but this is a faulty logic. We don't know why the population is dropping. Or rather we do know - in addition to bugs and features that just don't work and balance problems, we still don't have TC, and i'm still unsure if wardecs and alliances even work now. Sandboxes do need walls sometimes, but what it needs more is tools, and we just don't have them. Wardecs and sieges are tools, what you suggest is more like a wall.
 

Levvy

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Mar 28, 2021
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What I'm describing isn't really RvR, but I take your point.

I don't think (working)wardecs & sieges will fix this pvp & its underlying feeling of directionless. I'm far from the only one lamenting to this end here. Consider the issues played out by the amorphous GvG system of MO1... Just saying, how long do we want to beat our head against the wall before we admit something does not work?

Players are more than capable of devising their own conflicts and dramas. Adding some form of RvR would be a massive waste of development time.

What we need are systems that encourage PvP, and less punishment and busywork for those who choose to PvP. And more content in general.

I don't think trying to slap on an RvR system this late in the game's lifecycle is the genius stroke you think it is! :p
 
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bbihah

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TBH last time I played Crowfall it was in a significantly better state than MO2 currently is. I basically only quit because I recognized that while I love being #1 on outpost captures for a campaign, getting serious about that game means achieving basically nothing IRL for that campaign's duration.

I mean it had other flaws, and plenty of them. But so does MO2. Felt like it's a better state if you're actually willing to completely no-life it the way it's meant to be.
Crowfall is an unbalanced mess headed by a studio who's only merit is they know how to hype up a turd with golden sprinkles on it.
Its like they saw what the studio behind Warhammer online did and took notes.
 
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Kaemik

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Would you say MO2 is better balanced?

Crowfall had a roster full of insanely fun / interesting builds. At least as a healer it was some of the best variety I've ever seen and all the healing specs had their merits at the time I played. You had crusader clerics who used a lot of AoE point heals combined with blocking incoming damage to cause healing splash to themselves and nearby allies. You had the heal spec druids who put down healing orbs only visible to allies making the class about a combination of you setting up orbs in the right spot and allies being situationally aware enough to make your healing pop. And you had the paladin templars who were a parry/melee class that did more healing than damage and healed through playing as a melee.

It was really cool. Like I said, if I didn't recognize how insanely unhealthy of a loop the gameplay was trying to create I'd still play it. I actually had a lot of fun my last campaign I just realized it was promoting an unsustainable lifestyle.

Yes, there were a lot of downsides too. But we're on a forum about MO2 so....
 

Kaquenqos

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May 3, 2022
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Players are more than capable of devising their own conflicts and dramas. Adding some form of RvR would be a massive waste of development time.

What we need are systems that encourage PvP, and less punishment and busywork for those who choose to PvP. And more content in general.

I don't think trying to slap on an RvR system this late in the game's lifecycle is the genius stroke you think it is! :p
Clearly you just didn't read anything I wrote. I admit it was a rather lengthy read. My main point is creating delineation between being a blue and a red player that makes sense for both playstyles. Nowhere, absolutely nowhere, do I promote RvR with conflicts determined by the devs as you and others want to suggest.

The game is destined for, & to remain in, the sub1000 graveyard pop if it does not do something in the way of meaningful content that doesn't involve hardcore RPK guilds. Very few people actually want to play MO1 or Darkfall style GvG zergfests because it's simply not fun for the majority of playstyles. You can only cater to the most aggressive/toxic, hardcore portion of your potential player-base for so long before everyone except them leave, and that's just a fact... Then you have massive Nave with 300 regulars all belonging to one of the big guilds.

What I'm suggesting is actual in-game mechanics that facilitate outlaw vs lawful playstyles in ways that are sensible, vs the terrible system that exists currently. Currently the murdercount system fails at protecting blueberries AND fails at allowing for a fun RPK system for outlaws. It's kind of worst of both worlds and actually deters from what should be the main content of the game... E.g. at the moment, the deterrent for being an outlaw is simply that you have more tedious rez-walks... It's not a meaningful or fun deterrent and just makes the game overall less fun for people who want to kill and will kill regardless. The 'deterrent' should not be a deterrent at all, but something that facilitates non RPK people to exist in armed resistance to the more aggressive RPK outlaw guilds. In tandem, some changes to increase the amount of grey priests, maybe even to pepper in a few extra unlawful towns, etc. could be done to facilitate more pvp.

All I'm saying is, if you do something to facilitate 'lawful' type characters, like SV clearly does want to do to some extent, you will facilitate a larger playerbase & create an environment that is more conductive to PvP overall. If you look at recent changes, SV clearly realizes to some extent what I'm saying here... But I'm doubtful the change can happen without a mechanic that either resigns or heavily reworks the MC/flag/guard system. That's my overarching point here. Nowhere do I say I want RvR determined by devs themepark style like WoW or WAR or something.

Ie. a mechanic that organizes the less hardcore to engage in active PvP with the hardcore & not doing this by 'Horde Alliance' RvR bullshit, but doing it by creating City-State factions that are explicit alliances of blue guilds within a city, kind of like EVE University in EVE Online to some extent, but in a cool in-game mechanic that fits the theme of the game, complete with mechanics re: the cities operation & the city-states inner workings, with guild voting etc... In tandem take away a lot of the, frankly rather tedious, 'penalties' to being RPK/outlaw atm.

PvP should always be sandbox. Nowhere do I suggest otherwise. I just think the framework mechanics behind PvP at the moment are bad for everyone. A GvG rework that borrows some concepts from RvR, and not a move to RvR itself.



Sorry, this ended up being another long post, here's a tl;dr

TL;DR:
I'm not promoting RvR, I'm promoting mechanics that create a meaningful place in the world for casual non-RPK players who are generally less organized & less aggressive, but many of whom love the concept of the game & leave due to the toxic community/extreme grief. I'm also suggesting that, if you did so with the right mechanic(ie. reworking outlaw mechanics also, more grey priests, more grey towns), you could effectively encourage more meaningful PvP for everyone and have a better game in general without taking away from the realism.

At the very least, I'm suggesting that the murder-count/flag/guard mechanics are going to kill the game and should be heavily reworked if not completely discarded for something that meets the goals of encouraging pvp overall, but discouraging extreme grief for new players, better... I don't think the current system meets, or can meet, these goals. Then I give my pipe-dream version of what I think would be an awesome way to meet said goal while bolstering immersion.

If you disagree that's fine, but if you go, "NO RvR!" you clearly just didn't read or didn't understand what I was saying. The lack of features is not a feature. This wouldn't be RvR, just a different way to organize GvG that doesn't effectively kill the game long-term.
 
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bbihah

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Jul 10, 2020
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Would you say MO2 is better balanced?

Crowfall had a roster full of insanely fun / interesting builds. At least as a healer it was some of the best variety I've ever seen and all the healing specs had their merits at the time I played. You had crusader clerics who used a lot of AoE point heals combined with blocking incoming damage to cause healing splash to themselves and nearby allies. You had the heal spec druids who put down healing orbs only visible to allies making the class about a combination of you setting up orbs in the right spot and allies being situationally aware enough to make your healing pop. And you had the paladin templars who were a parry/melee class that did more healing than damage and healed through playing as a melee.

It was really cool. Like I said, if I didn't recognize how insanely unhealthy of a loop the gameplay was trying to create I'd still play it. I actually had a lot of fun my last campaign I just realized it was promoting an unsustainable lifestyle.

Yes, there were a lot of downsides too. But we're on a forum about MO2 so....
A fun roster full of insanely underpowered builds where 1-2 tank builds that can solo a roster full of the other ones with their eyes closed.
 

tal0s

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Sep 5, 2021
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People are also leaving because of the kill everyone on sight mentality of some.

New players with no chance getting rekt by murder hobos is a huge deterrent for many.
Its poor amount of content, no real point in doing anything and this basic ass useless grind.. The PvP is the only value in the game. The PvE mobs are a joke. The economy is even worse.
 

tal0s

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Sep 5, 2021
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Players are more than capable of devising their own conflicts and dramas. Adding some form of RvR would be a massive waste of development time.

What we need are systems that encourage PvP, and less punishment and busywork for those who choose to PvP. And more content in general.

I don't think trying to slap on an RvR system this late in the game's lifecycle is the genius stroke you think it is! :p
While I dont think RvR is logical, this game is 5 months into release. Thats not a late lifecycle...
 
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ElPerro

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Jun 9, 2020
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The rep system was supposed to create organic RvR or faction vs faction, but since you also get mcs for killing ppl in other regions and the map is huge theres no point in travelling say from Meduli to Vadda to pvp since you will go red anyways.
 

Kaquenqos

Active member
May 3, 2022
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tal0s said:
While I dont think RvR is logical, this game is 5 months into release. Thats not a late lifecycle...

That's cool, because if people would stop putting words in my mouth, I'm very clearly not advocating RvR lmao...

But yeah, I agree, it's not too late for them to rework the pvp & surrounding social(MK,flags,wardecs,etc) mechanics of the game. Which they should.
All the content in the world is not going to matter if it's built on the broken half implemented system they're using for pvp.

But, I will say, I think everyone here is wrong re: the 'less is more' mentality for sandbox games. Some of the greatest sandbox games ever created have very clearly defined mechanics that the fun is had within. No, or half implemented & esoteric, mechanics is not 'extra sandbox', it's just bad design.

The rep system was supposed to create organic RvR or faction vs faction, but since you also get mcs for killing ppl in other regions and the map is huge theres no point in travelling say from Meduli to Vadda to pvp since you will go red anyways.

The rep system is like air-dropping a single cup of water on a forest fire. It's a perfect example of why I think that whole end of the games' mechanics need a complete rework if it is to ever come into its own.
 
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Tzone

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May 16, 2021
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The rep system was supposed to create organic RvR or faction vs faction, but since you also get mcs for killing ppl in other regions and the map is huge theres no point in travelling say from Meduli to Vadda to pvp since you will go red anyways.
back when they had town red priest near bye you would see some of this but not the norm. People back then farmed rep for their area while some others would take advantage of near by towns outside their home towns faction. But again you only had meduli v vada, bakti because of distance.