If Spinning Is Replaced, What Should Replace It?

[Kaemik]

So this thread is not to debate if spinning is good/bad etc. Please use this thread to debate that if interested: https://mortalonline2.com/forums/threads/spinning-twisty-animation-pvp-bad.7400/

More this is to pose a question to the community. Spinning currently serves the function of making an attack that is easier to slip through people's parries by doing something that requires a bit more skill (Or at least a macro though you would be banned if it's proven you use one). But detractors say it's a very janky non-immersive mechanic.

Suppose you were to introduce a new mechanic that helps fill the gap spinning leaves of a skill-based way to slip a hit through your opponent's parries. What mechanic would you personally suggest?

 

[ArcaneConsular]

Maybe kicking

 

[bbihah]

More fluent feinting and/or riposte attacks(chambering in Mordhau, chamberblock in M&B), could be something.

 

[Gulith]

1st) attribute clashes importance should be increased : high str character smashing a low str character should be a no brainer.
On the other side, high dexterity character "dodges" should be too against heavy characters.
2nd) any effective action, like max damage attack and parrying should be actions that engage your character like when you miss a swing : you just put your bodyweight into an action, therefore you can't change mid-action like that.
3rd) spamming slashing while running is totally retarded, anyone who even tried even some half-ass martial art knows a big chunk of your impact comes from your legs. it shouldn't even do half your max damage.
4) blocking should be the norm, not parrying. parrying should be a risk taken.

So yeah, when all these are solved, then you can start adding shield bash interrupts, kick interrupts etc.
But to be interesting it would require much work ... i don't think there is a simple solution to that mess.
The combat system is sad, and it will stay that way for a very long time.
And since there is a bunch of "individuals" who defends this crap, it won't change anytime soon : it's on the bottom of the pile.

 

[Hodo]

So this thread is not to debate if spinning is good/bad etc. Please use this thread to debate that if interested: https://mortalonline2.com/forums/threads/spinning-twisty-animation-pvp-bad.7400/

More this is to pose a question to the community. Spinning currently serves the function of making an attack that is easier to slip through people's parries by doing something that requires a bit more skill (Or at least a macro though you would be banned if it's proven you use one). But detractors say it's a very janky non-immersive mechanic.

Suppose you were to introduce a new mechanic that helps fill the gap spinning leaves of a skill-based way to slip a hit through your opponent's parries. What mechanic would you personally suggest?

Learning how to morph your attacks and feint.

Just maybe.

 

[Gladiator]

I think For Honor is much better in this regard. There is a light attack, which you can parry/block, there is a heavy attack which you cannot, but it takes longer to charge, and there is also a block breaker, in the form of a tiny charge.

 

[bbihah]

I think For Honor is much better in this regard. There is a light attack, which you can parry/block, there is a heavy attack which you cannot, but it takes longer to charge, and there is also a block breaker, in the form of a tiny charge.

If they added a heavy attack like that, they'd have to make sure that the person executing it can be defended against, be it through hitting them first or being able to move out of the way.

But it's an idea.

 

[Bloodmasked]

The melee can only be improved first by adding more servers so ping is lower. Reading an attack to parry it is too hard and you cannot judge distances when you have 300 ping, you routinely get hit when you hear a parry sound, get parried when you hear a hit sound, get hit by people not looking at you, get hit by people who are 2-5x times too far away to reach you. NA server would make a massive difference but I guess they made the world too big so it would feel even emptier with more servers.

 

[bbihah]

The melee can only be improved first by adding more servers so ping is lower. Reading an attack to parry it is too hard and you cannot judge distances when you have 300 ping, you routinely get hit when you hear a parry sound, get parried when you hear a hit sound, get hit by people not looking at you, get hit by people who are 2-5x times too far away to reach you. NA server would make a massive difference but I guess they made the world too big so it would feel even emptier with more servers.

The main server should have been put in east NA, but the problem is they already have a contract for their current ones. So the current plan is that the next continent is hosted on NA east servers.

If their current contract is anything like the contracts they had for mo1, its 5-10 year contracts, breaching a contract like that is never a cheap affair.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

The main server should have been put in east NA, but the problem is they already have a contract for their current ones. So the current plan is that the next continent is hosted on NA east servers.

If their current contract is anything like the contracts they had for mo1, its 5-10 year contracts, breaching a contract like that is never a cheap affair.

Nice, NA server in 5 years to an empty buggy ass new continent xD
I thought people didn't believe Henrique's promises anymore, but i guess thers a few left.

 

[bbihah]

Nice, NA server in 5 years to an empty buggy ass new continent xD
I thought people didn't believe Henrique's promises anymore, but i guess thers a few left.

Until you want to personally throw about a million SV's way to get a new server contract or to plug the hole that is a early contract breach for moving the servers. Go ahead. We're waiting.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

Until you want to personally throw about a million SV's way to get a new server contract or to plug the hole that is a early contract breach for moving the servers. Go ahead. We're waiting.

Why would i pay for their mistakes, i mean i already did pay for several accounts. By the way, are you really familiar with the rental of mortal's server? Cuz by the looks of it you seem to be speculating a lot. Not something new tho, you do speculate a lot with Henrique's promises, guess hope is bliss.

 

[ElPerro]

There isnt much they can do unless they add regional servers. They would have to increase the speed of combat by alot and more refined mechanics like chambering would never work with a global server

The main server should have been put in east NA, but the problem is they already have a contract for their current ones. So the current plan is that the next continent is hosted on NA east servers.

If their current contract is anything like the contracts they had for mo1, its 5-10 year contracts, breaching a contract like that is never a cheap affair.

Didnt know we had SVs legal representive in da house...

 

[Wyndorn]

4) blocking should be the norm, not parrying. parrying should be a risk taken.

Most insightful thing in this thread imo

 

[Kaemik]

1st) attribute clashes importance should be increased : high str character smashing a low str character should be a no brainer.
On the other side, high dexterity character "dodges" should be too against heavy characters.

I could agree with this IF strength were massively nerfed in terms of mobility:



If strength is getting the massive buff you suggest, then I would say it needs to be coupled with removing stamina gain from strength and buffing dex to give stamina as per constitution in the graph above.

Essentially, if a stronger character is just outright going to win a head to head fight against a dex fighter then strength stacked builds need to be slower than dex builds over short distances (like they are), slower than dex builds over long distances (like not all currently are) slower than dex builds with no exceptions, to a fairly dramatic degree.

For instance, currently a full Kallard has the same stamina as a full Khurite. It also has something like 7% more damage and 14% more health for a less than 2% speed advantage for the Khurite. (Those are estimations, I haven't crunched the numbers on this in months since there have been no changes to make Khurites non-trash)

That's already a much stronger build IMO but it's not quite so broken as to allow a lesser skilled player to absolutely dunk a more skilled one. If you additionally give that the ability to do more damage through parries and parry more damage, without giving the Khurite anything to compensate, it becomes DRAMATICALY more powerful. To the point that a slightly less skilled Kallard will probably dunk Khurites of slightly greater player skill in nearly every fight against them.

 

[bbihah]

There isnt much they can do unless they add regional servers. They would have to increase the speed of combat by alot and more refined mechanics like chambering would never work with a global server


Didnt know we had SVs legal representive in da house...

They clearly stated back in MO1 day about their server contracts and there is no indication that they'd all of a sudden change their approach for worse cost efficiency and getting short or no sign on contracted server space.

Being someone who has slinged server space for a living at one point in his life plus someone who has helped SWGEMU find options to manage their server costs. I think i'm quite qualified to mention how the business works to people who clearly don't know.


Something like Mo2 can't possibly run lower server costs than about 300$ per rented server, even with a good deal. Lets assume database server+backup and guesstimate at around 50 servers managing nodes+havens. I'm assuming they have even more servers than that, but this is approximately $200 000 a year, and that actually makes me wonder if they are trying their best to keep server costs down and are working on much smaller capacity.

You don't get low prices let alone manage to get the servers at all unless you sign a long term contract. anywhere from 5-10 years is common. Usually they want you to pay the first year in advance and you are technically paying for the 2nd year right off the bat. This is collateral in case you would go bankrupt or decide to breach the contract and end it early.

IF you want to end a contract early it wont be cheap. A 10 year contract at the before mentioned rate is a 2 million dollar contract, you're not jumping ship on a 2 million dollar contract without some big penalties.


Anyone still eager to pay for them to end their contracts early?


Now go clown somewhere else.

 

[Foundry]

So this thread is not to debate if spinning is good/bad etc. Please use this thread to debate that if interested: https://mortalonline2.com/forums/threads/spinning-twisty-animation-pvp-bad.7400/

More this is to pose a question to the community. Spinning currently serves the function of making an attack that is easier to slip through people's parries by doing something that requires a bit more skill (Or at least a macro though you would be banned if it's proven you use one). But detractors say it's a very janky non-immersive mechanic.

Suppose you were to introduce a new mechanic that helps fill the gap spinning leaves of a skill-based way to slip a hit through your opponent's parries. What mechanic would you personally suggest?

You dont need to replace it with anything, just refine the feinting mechanics. You have master feinters like Cerqo who display this well. He does like one spin the entire fight, but the rest of the fight is morphing + Feinting.

It actually looks good, visually from an outsiders perspective, and looks skillful and competitive to watch.I mean he looks like a jedi master moving his weapon,its what the game should be about.

Twitch

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.

www.twitch.tv

 

[Emdash]

yep as simple as nerfing parry. I dunno why dudes want parry to be so OP in a game that's so laggy. Small dmg thru parry, more blocks, fewer parries, yea lag affects movement a lot TOO, but any lag that affects movement is also gonna affect parry so, adding one on top of the other, to me, is nonsense.

As I said, the spin itself doesn't bother me that much. It's how parry is so oppressive, and y'know when they increased swing speed, people couldn't parry near as much. I'm talking normie people not dudes who are parrymasters living in EU. Not talking about using flake (or I wasn't. I def got flaked a few times and it was like WEW cuz I don't wear steel, but still... they could have balanced it instead of hard revert.)

They need to find a way to make all weapons viable and the only way I can see that is by changing parry. Poles/Risar spears are kinda ok, but other than that, being unable to do all 4 directional attacks is a huge disadvantage, hence why swords are 'working as intended.'

There's nothing wrong with spin feints. I don't even dislike the spin + chase feint because people don't hit me w/ straight spins cuz I'm not there. I mean, it IS a game. I don't want the game to be all feinting and morphing, either. It needs to be dimensional because it's first person, so being able to move around the person has to be a factor, too, otherwise you've basically taken a big possibility out of the game.

Start with kind of faster swings, less fast for shit tier weps, work on some dmg thru parry. I don't think a guard break mechanic (as in an over time multi-hit guard break like fighting games have, not just a kick) is necessarily a zerg friendly mechanic, at least it adds more to small scale IMO than it does to buff zergs. That would be nice, too, but yeah we need to see people with axes and hammers and even spears in 1v1s. This morphing shit is what is trash. Imagine the game being based on glitching swing animations. I'm sorry. I'm a purist. If I'm playing a first person medieval, low fantasy (arguably?? lol) game, I want it to feel like I'm really out there fighting.

There is a balance, they just need to find it. I think when they do, even if the game is still objectively bad w/ all the other 'indie mmo' problems, it will be playable just for combat sake. MO combat has a lot of potential (even if the physics aren't realistic, it's not unrealistic enough to not feel like you're not that person,) in addition to all of the open world and full loot, it could be really cool.

+1 to swing speed
+1 to feint (or someone said a feint into attack that costs more stam, v interesting!)
+1 to parried hits doing dmg
+1 to guard break for excessive parry that resets on a landed hit

-1 to... swing morphing.

If they could ever make it so you could swing at a part of someone's body and they would have to block that part of their body, that would change everything, but with how the display is different on both screens, it's be a shit show. So it basically HAS to be directional w/ current tech.

I for one, and I honestly think a lot of people share my opinion, refuse to learn cheesy swing tricks to be competitive, and doods can gargle muh ballz if they think it is some high tier skill that only elite people can learn and I'm saying that because I'm not mechanically sound enough. I mean, shit, I'm alil older now, but c'monson.

@Foundry the problem is that's too reliant on ping, etc. But I respect his work. I still think more pressure/movement would change everything for everyone. People would make more mistakes, even really sound, high skilled players.

 

[Tashka]

yep as simple as nerfing parry. I dunno why dudes want parry to be so OP in a game that's so laggy.

Because if parries are nerfed, combat becomes a DPS check with whoever has the biggest weapon, hp pool, and damage bonus winning. It doesn't matter how much damage your risar axe does if i can parry it all and stab you to death with a rapier. Parries should be made more difficult to perform, but damage through parries is a no-no-no please. You could of course say "just footwork your way out of being hit" but in this game due to ping or whatever you never know if your position relative to the opponent matches their position relative to you, so you can get hit with a short sword from 10 meters.

 

[Rhias]

- Remove Parry from normal Blocking
- Make (uncharged) swings in the direction of an incoming attack a parry-combi attack (so a block-parry and a parry-hit in one move)
The swing (which turns into a parry) needs to be started after the oponent released the hit, but obviously before you are hit.