Current state of footfighting meta, a focus on Oghmirs and Thursars

Iloros

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Dec 14, 2023
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They should look at Dark and Darker as an example, they actually used the beta as testing grounds where each patch brings changes (that get quickly reverted if not working) not an extension of mismanaged dev time.

In the meantime at SV the only programmer clocks in and starts working on putting bows on bugged mobs.
Every game does that, Dark and Darker didnt invent it, its just SV that refuses to do balance changes. You do a nerf/buff, if you overdid it, you revert it a bit in a hotfix/next patch if its not too drastic which I emphasize nothing can be as drastic as how OP Oghmirs are now, so unless they go crazy like nerf pipe to 10 hp heal, they wont be weak, I mean even if you completely removed pipe they would still be the best with TS + small hitbox + beer belly. Gave Oghs as an example, this can be done with any class. Buff Thursars to 45% dmg bonus, too much? Go for 40 in a hotfix that takes 3 minutes to do (im not suggesting these exact buffs, I think Thursars need more survivability, same as Humans, esp. Kallards, so height needs a HP buff, but thats another story). Who asked for the Risar bowmen and a completely new attack for Sators too? You coulda added charge blink change, and a Thursar buff and a Towershield nerf instead, balance can only get better from here.
 

Rahz

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Jul 19, 2022
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I think bows still wont ultra counter mages, they indeed are hard to hit, and towershields should especially be nerfed on Oghmirs (stam on equipment hit) and Oghmirs sustain other than that should also be gutted in half. Beer belly to 5, Pipes to 1 minute cooldown. Easy balance, leads to much healthier meta and more fun meele combat. RN. Oghmirs are literally unkillable if they are decent. 1v1s take 10 minutes too. Hot food mega OP. But this would be good start.
Of course a 158cm mage is hard to hit. But most of the time you'll get ambushed. And in an ambush situation losing at least 2/3 of your hp in the first second is just too much imo. And the other problem with archery vs. mage is due to the fact, that every footie worth a damn has a bow. That means more range, higher dps and more ammunition, which just isn't balanced properly. But we could theorize all day about it...since theres a huge ping problem, we cant really test balance at all xD
 

Iloros

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Dec 14, 2023
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Of course a 158cm mage is hard to hit. But most of the time you'll get ambushed. And in an ambush situation losing at least 2/3 of your hp in the first second is just too much imo. And the other problem with archery vs. mage is due to the fact, that every footie worth a damn has a bow. That means more range, higher dps and more ammunition, which just isn't balanced properly. But we could theorize all day about it...since theres a huge ping problem, we cant really test balance at all xD
I genuinely dont think bows are good and I think mages are in no way underpowered, especially with towershields rn. But I will not overfocus on this, as my goal is clear. I want Oghmir and Thursar gap to be closer in utility. That is all. Henrik needs to do some changes. People generally cannot wait for towershield nerfs and its gonna make combat more fun than people who hope for nerfs even expect. When your hits start feeling significant, when you notice them lose stam, when you see that equip animation and hit them for 100 during it. Beautiful.
 
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Tzone

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Adding tower shields was a mistake. Increasing weight on all shields to try to balance them was a mistake. Ignoring them was a mistake. Balancing by regenning less stam on parry was a mistake.

They said they are waiting for wjen they can get rid of prepatch t shields to balance t shields.

What they gonna do, increase weight again. So its even more impossible to use with out a oghmir.

Just decrease their weight and make it to where the heavier the shield the more stam damage you take when its hit. After adding damage to shields equal some amount of stamina lost.
Its quit simple multiple others though of similar solutions if not the same.
 
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Rahz

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Jul 19, 2022
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I genuinely dont think bows are good and I think mages are in no way underpowered, especially with towershields rn. But I will not overfocus on this, as my goal is clear. I want Oghmir and Thursar gap to be closer in utility. That is all. Henrik needs to do some changes. People generally cannot wait for towershield nerfs and its gonna make combat more fun than people who hope for nerfs even expect. When your hits start feeling significant, when you notice them lose stam, when you see that equip animation and hit them for 100 during it. Beautiful.
Yes I am 100% with you. When Towershields and Oghmirs are put in line, we can see and then discuss everything else :)
 
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Iloros

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Adding tower shields was a mistake. Increasing weight on all shields to try to balance them was a mistake. Ignoring them was a mistake. Balancing by regenning less stam on parry was a mistake.

They said they are waiting for wjen they can get rid of prepatch t shields to balance t shields.

What they gonna do, increase weight again. So its even more impossible to use with out a oghmir.

Just decrease their weight and make it to where the heavier the shield the more stam damage you take when its hit. After adding damage to shields equal some amount of stamina lost.
Its quit simple multiple others though of similar solutions if not the same.
Absolutely. I have a post about towershields as well, our ideas are shared. Personally I think stam on parry is good, just because it makes towershield users weaker. You could do any change you want that impacts Oghmirs in a negative way Im down. I wish they scaled with size also, so Ogh if he wants his whole body saved from hits, has to use a 9kg towershield, not a 6kg one.
 

Iloros

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Dec 14, 2023
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Yes I am 100% with you. When Towershields and Oghmirs are put in line, we can see and then discuss everything else :)
Absolutely man. They are objectively, provably OP with numbers as I showed in my post. 790 eHP vs 440 of Thursars, the second most sustainable class, thats 80% more while losing just 8% dmg and 0.9% speed and also have more Armor Weight and smaller hitbox and more stamina and more carry weight and better bows and more chip dmg and more int if they want and are lighter so better for horses and are harder to push, and push you harder, most str, most con, not that low dex, most int... its like Oghmirs are best at all things already implemented and then they mention stuff that will come in 5 years to quiet us down, because Thursar giant weapons will come 3 months before Exodus when theres 250 active players, the current balance is not fair at all.

Nerf towershield, nerf pipes to 60 sec cooldown, nerf beer belly to 5 thirst, make adamant a toggle and buff height as a stat because now people would rather be short than tall, even if it was free and it costs attribute points, and thats terrible balance, which I will discuss in my next post.
 
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Hodo

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The common issue with trying to balance fantasy races is an age old problem that dates back to Gigax and Dungeons & Dragons. I mean Elves are more dexterous than humans but have less constitution... but live 7 times as long. How do you balance that vs a human who is slower, lives way less and is marginally tougher? You dont....

You have to give a reason for someone to want to go human vs dwarf vs elf vs halfling or gnome. So you give perks to each race that are VERY unique to that race. SV failed to do this with Mortal Online. We have Oghmire which are knockoff dwarves, who are tough short, extremely strong, and extremely smart race... but marginally slower than your average Tindremine human. BUT the same speed as the much taller Kallards? Then you have the Alvarin which are super fast on foot, and magically gifted but are on par with humans when it comes to intelligence and psyche but arent a whole lot weaker or frail?

You could try to balance by giving less attribute points to each race using Tins and Sards as a baseline at 475... then going down from there like SV is attempting to do. But they have their system on some kind of arbitrary weight system. Where Strength, and Constitution seems to matter way more than dex or int.. which is proving to be the opposite in the current game.

Balance is rough in a game like this... this is why many games dont bother with different races being more than cosmetic or minor skill perks. Even D&D is moving away from it with the new D&D One system that removes all racial bonuses from every race and it is now based on where you are from.
 

Iloros

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Dec 14, 2023
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The common issue with trying to balance fantasy races is an age old problem that dates back to Gigax and Dungeons & Dragons. I mean Elves are more dexterous than humans but have less constitution... but live 7 times as long. How do you balance that vs a human who is slower, lives way less and is marginally tougher? You dont....

You have to give a reason for someone to want to go human vs dwarf vs elf vs halfling or gnome. So you give perks to each race that are VERY unique to that race. SV failed to do this with Mortal Online. We have Oghmire which are knockoff dwarves, who are tough short, extremely strong, and extremely smart race... but marginally slower than your average Tindremine human. BUT the same speed as the much taller Kallards? Then you have the Alvarin which are super fast on foot, and magically gifted but are on par with humans when it comes to intelligence and psyche but arent a whole lot weaker or frail?

You could try to balance by giving less attribute points to each race using Tins and Sards as a baseline at 475... then going down from there like SV is attempting to do. But they have their system on some kind of arbitrary weight system. Where Strength, and Constitution seems to matter way more than dex or int.. which is proving to be the opposite in the current game.

Balance is rough in a game like this... this is why many games dont bother with different races being more than cosmetic or minor skill perks. Even D&D is moving away from it with the new D&D One system that removes all racial bonuses from every race and it is now based on where you are from.
I dont wanna sound to disagreeable but I think relatively good balance could be acessed very easily by literally just doing TS nerf + pot uti from Ogh nerf + pipe nerf + small Veela Hp nerf + Small height HP buff + adamant toggle + tactician nerf.

But all need to be together, if you just put in adamant toggle, you didnt fix shit prio is Oghmirs need to be less sustainable then all else.

HP on height buffs humans/Thursars compared to Veelas/oghmirs in terms of stats which is needed. Overweight Veela with blunt rings is literally tankier and deals more dmg than a Thursar while being faster.

No rings can make Thursar as tanky as Oghmir or as fast as Veela. Thats the issue.


80% eHP over second highest tankiest race is crazy difference. Thats likr if Thursars had 150% dmg bonus (not 50, 150)
 
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Midas

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Feb 25, 2022
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I dont wanna sound to disagreeable but I think relatively good balance could be acessed very easily by literally just doing TS nerf + pot uti from Ogh nerf + pipe nerf + small Veela Hp nerf + Small height HP buff + adamant toggle + tactician nerf.

But all need to be together, if you just put in adamant toggle, you didnt fix shit prio is Oghmirs need to be less sustainable then all else.

HP on height buffs humans/Thursars compared to Veelas/oghmirs in terms of stats which is needed. Overweight Veela with blunt rings is literally tankier and deals more dmg than a Thursar while being faster.

No rings can make Thursar as tanky as Oghmir or as fast as Veela. Thats the issue.


80% eHP over second highest tankiest race is crazy difference. Thats likr if Thursars had 150% dmg bonus (not 50, 150)
you dont sound disagreeable however your pointing out 1 or maybe 2 issues. there is much more then that. my skinny fulldex short human still runs slower then a taller bulging sheevra by miles just like your comparison of thursars to oghs.
 

Tzone

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I dont wanna sound to disagreeable but I think relatively good balance could be acessed very easily by literally just doing TS nerf + pot uti from Ogh nerf + pipe nerf + small Veela Hp nerf + Small height HP buff + adamant toggle + tactician nerf.

But all need to be together, if you just put in adamant toggle, you didnt fix shit prio is Oghmirs need to be less sustainable then all else.

HP on height buffs humans/Thursars compared to Veelas/oghmirs in terms of stats which is needed. Overweight Veela with blunt rings is literally tankier and deals more dmg than a Thursar while being faster.

No rings can make Thursar as tanky as Oghmir or as fast as Veela. Thats the issue.


80% eHP over second highest tankiest race is crazy difference. Thats likr if Thursars had 150% dmg bonus (not 50, 150)
This as a outline of what Ive seen the community ask for
 

Tzone

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you dont sound disagreeable however your pointing out 1 or maybe 2 issues. there is much more then that. my skinny fulldex short human still runs slower then a taller bulging sheevra by miles just like your comparison of thursars to oghs.
Well your build is terrible first off. I see where you are having issues now. Your problem isnt that elf mages are op but you just get ran down and 2 shot by fotfighters.
Go fat or even stout with t shield and parry as you call for a peel from you ally Footy.
 
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Iloros

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you dont sound disagreeable however your pointing out 1 or maybe 2 issues. there is much more then that. my skinny fulldex short human still runs slower then a taller bulging sheevra by miles just like your comparison of thursars to oghs.
Thats why I said good balance, elves would in turn have less HP.

I would add dex mattering more for speed so Oghs arent just 2% slower than Khurites.
 

Iloros

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Dec 14, 2023
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This as a outline of what Ive seen the community ask for
Yeah, Ive been telling SV, just do this your game will be much better.

Combat meta is the stalest in any game. Same shit every guild, no uniqueness due to 2 builds being OP.
 

Teknique

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Jun 15, 2020
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The common issue with trying to balance fantasy races is an age old problem that dates back to Gigax and Dungeons & Dragons. I mean Elves are more dexterous than humans but have less constitution... but live 7 times as long. How do you balance that vs a human who is slower, lives way less and is marginally tougher? You dont....

You have to give a reason for someone to want to go human vs dwarf vs elf vs halfling or gnome. So you give perks to each race that are VERY unique to that race. SV failed to do this with Mortal Online. We have Oghmire which are knockoff dwarves, who are tough short, extremely strong, and extremely smart race... but marginally slower than your average Tindremine human. BUT the same speed as the much taller Kallards? Then you have the Alvarin which are super fast on foot, and magically gifted but are on par with humans when it comes to intelligence and psyche but arent a whole lot weaker or frail?

You could try to balance by giving less attribute points to each race using Tins and Sards as a baseline at 475... then going down from there like SV is attempting to do. But they have their system on some kind of arbitrary weight system. Where Strength, and Constitution seems to matter way more than dex or int.. which is proving to be the opposite in the current game.

Balance is rough in a game like this... this is why many games dont bother with different races being more than cosmetic or minor skill perks. Even D&D is moving away from it with the new D&D One system that removes all racial bonuses from every race and it is now based on where you are from.
Humans being a mounted niche are one of the very few things they got right and it’s only partially complete.

How do you release classes and specs in a game but give them no gameplay loop and be completely broken.
 
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Iloros

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Humans being a mounted niche are one of the very few things they got right and it’s only partially complete.

How do you release classes and specs in a game but give them no gameplay loop and be completely broken.
Yeah, like they gave Oghmirs their stuff - tanky af, Veelas fast af, and then humans and thursars suck, except tactician exists and ele is OP so a meta was born, if it wasnt for tactician, humans would be dogshit also.
 

Rahz

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First off all, nerfing Alvarin HP would do nothing for Thursars unless you wanna be able to one-shot short dex-mages with a bow.
You're still not gonna catch them.
The pigeon holed human build refusing to reroll as a sheevra is also no problem imo. Humans are tankier than Alvarin, can wear heavier armor, have more strength and more stat points overall. Thats a good start for hybrids.
Also humans get more primary points, which makes them even better hybrids.
And from what I noticed, since I am playing a hybrid..magic wont kill me. (Healing takes way less mana)
Thursars and Oghmirs have the problem that they share a role and one is better than the other since Oghmirs clade gifts are simply better. Rebalancing clade gifts in general would be appreciated. Remove my alvarin speed buff i dont care, but dont expect that to help you catch Alvarins...they will still have more dex than you. I just want to be able to damage Oghmirs and right now, it doesnt work.
We could get Thursars to a point where they can compete with Oghmirs as footfighters if we just remove the crack-pipe for a start and the armor-bonus. Smoking is unhealthy anyway and shouldnt heal you to full.
Now, I honestly dont know what people have with thunderlash..its not that strong. Maybe it can go up to 50+dmg with a very specialized mage hitting a 10psy build from max. 23m away. I get hit with swords for 80+ and i dont complain that damage is too high. No my melee damage is too low because Heavy Armor is simply too good to a point where you NEED it for melee fights.
Thursars with Lances can hit for 500+(!!!) and noone bats an eye, but if a mage can do 50dmg potentially in a bit under 5 seconds from less than half a achers range , you can hear the hypocritical screeching from the basements.
Towershields need a nerf and a str. requirement so mages dont just carry them on their backs to safely run away. Give them a little more of a chance to fight back, instead. Makes for a better gameplay since footies wont have to constantly just run after builds faster than them.
 

Iloros

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First off all, nerfing Alvarin HP would do nothing for Thursars unless you wanna be able to one-shot short dex-mages with a bow.
You're still not gonna catch them.
The pigeon holed human build refusing to reroll as a sheevra is also no problem imo. Humans are tankier than Alvarin, can wear heavier armor, have more strength and more stat points overall. Thats a good start for hybrids.
Also humans get more primary points, which makes them even better hybrids.
And from what I noticed, since I am playing a hybrid..magic wont kill me. (Healing takes way less mana)
Thursars and Oghmirs have the problem that they share a role and one is better than the other since Oghmirs clade gifts are simply better. Rebalancing clade gifts in general would be appreciated. Remove my alvarin speed buff i dont care, but dont expect that to help you catch Alvarins...they will still have more dex than you. I just want to be able to damage Oghmirs and right now, it doesnt work.
We could get Thursars to a point where they can compete with Oghmirs as footfighters if we just remove the crack-pipe for a start and the armor-bonus. Smoking is unhealthy anyway and shouldnt heal you to full.
Now, I honestly dont know what people have with thunderlash..its not that strong. Maybe it can go up to 50+dmg with a very specialized mage hitting a 10psy build from max. 23m away. I get hit with swords for 80+ and i dont complain that damage is too high. No my melee damage is too low because Heavy Armor is simply too good to a point where you NEED it for melee fights.
Thursars with Lances can hit for 500+(!!!) and noone bats an eye, but if a mage can do 50dmg potentially in a bit under 5 seconds from less than half a achers range , you can hear the hypocritical screeching from the basements.
Towershields need a nerf and a str. requirement so mages dont just carry them on their backs to safely run away. Give them a little more of a chance to fight back, instead. Makes for a better gameplay since footies wont have to constantly just run after builds faster than them.
I would say either nerf speed or HP, or widen the gap by buffing other races HP/ close it by buffing dex, and removing Alvarin passive speed. Its unhealthy that they can run away whenever and outstam any footie, that stand still stam clade is busted.

Oghmirs need a nerf. Crackpipe 60 second cooldown instead of 30, 30 is way too low. Towershield nerfs suggested in my other post and beer belly to be 5 thirst not 10. Easy fix.

I dont mind Veelas personally, just think their speed and low risk gameplay against other races is an issue. Id even call it no risk gameplay.


I genuinely think if they nerfed tactician and nerfed Oghmirs hard, Thursars dont even need a buff/maybe just no negatives on adamant and styg, but RN. Oghmirs are so ahead, all footies need buffs in teamfights because of them.

Idk whats your build if swords slash you for 80 tho, what are you, naked?