Class Rock Paper Scissors

[SirVirtuo]

I like to think of the three build types as Rock, Paper, and Scissors.

Rock = Strength Builds, Foot Fighter or Mounted Combat usually

Paper= Intelligence builds... in other words, Mages

Scissors= Dex builds... in a perfect world we would be talking Archers or light fighters, but this game doesn't go by those rules, so lets just call them Archers/Mounted Archers.

1. Rock is special because when it can make it to paper or scissors, they can dominate that fight within range. They can take a good few arrows from scissors, and as long as they can manage to get close, they can devastate the opponent. Rock's expected weakness would usually be Paper, but Paper currently has way too many inhibiting factors that leaves it incredibly vulnerable... I.E. Immobility for charging spells, and bad hits-scan for landing spells. How do you fight that which cannot fight back?

1. 2.Paper would usually be expected to deal damage that can somewhat penetrate armored opponents from a distance, but that distance is easily filled between 1-2 spell charge times in most situations. Paper will always lose on foot. On mount is another story, but that should be a sub-class style, not a requirement.

1. 3 Scissors can only defeat rock by keeping them beyond arm's length, which they can often do by running while charging their bows, or riding a mount. Scissors are usually used to cull the Paper players, which they slice right through them since most of the time a paper player, if they wish to have a hand in combat, does not move... making them easily susceptible prey... too easy.

The above is only used as examples in 1v1 combat. If you expect multiple combatants, then apply it in a more strategic way, such as rocks up front to take brunt, scissors and paper in back to offer cover fire and support.

So I suppose the problems I see are in Paper mages having way too much inhibition as it is now. It is foretold that one day, great magics will come to them, making the playstyle more viable and leading their way to the promised land... but that is much too long after persistent release to be good for the game's long-term health. The spells in the game now are not viable for healthy teamplay. Right now, the only support spells that are worthwhile are Lesser heal, Greater heal, and sometimes Resurrection. If anything, spiritism became overly complicated for something that offers really nothing to the benefit of the rest of the game outside of the Ether itself.

Scissor players also have it a little rough... Not as many would think, but because there is no actual niche for them. As it is now, they are simply another off-shoot from Strength base players. Bows do not require dexterity for anything related to their utilization, and armor types are a moot point at the moment. Yes, Stamina regeneration and mana regeneration are affected by armor weight, but there is honestly little benefit to wearing lighter armor other than that at the moment. Medium armor fighters are not a thing, mostly due to there really being just 1 medium armor in game... And what's the point? It's quite literally a stepping stone between padded to Plate armor. 1 handed weapons have no great advantage in any way at this time, other than wearing a shield, which most people argue is hardly worth doing, and I agree. We need Dex fighters as well as Dex archers.

Rock is fine. There's a reason most people end up settling with them after trying mage. Rock also somehow holds onto the best archery styles, so that's kinda odd too. Tanks, berserkers, and meatheads with a cry for battle in tight spaces, these guys shine beyond others in this. It is by far the easiest solo class due to the ability to take many hits and keep dishing out massive blows, one. by. one. They do not need a nerf, by no means. The other play styles just need more viability to coincide with the Rock players.

Opinions?.. Constructive ones maybe?

 

[Tzone]

Rock, paper, scissors is not good balancing. For strategy game the player gets access to all three and the skill in those games is knowing how to position your pieces and how to use them.

For slashers and other games which are not strategic games you want 1v1 balance and for the winner to be based on mechanical skill. Sure some classes will have a advantage over another in a certain aspect of the game like gvg or 1v1. But whats the point of playing a game if you know you cant win against a class as your one and only character because the game is RPS balanced.

 

[SirVirtuo]

Rock, paper, scissors is not good balancing. For strategy game the player gets access to all three and the skill in those games is knowing how to position your pieces and how to use them.

For slashers and other games which are not strategic games you want 1v1 balance and for the winner to be based on mechanical skill. Sure some classes will have a advantage over another in a certain aspect of the game like gvg or 1v1. But whats the point of playing a game if you know you cant win against a class as your one and only character because the game is RPS balanced.

Ah, yeah never intended to say that each weakness was a sure loss, it's more like to be a counter. I explained that melee fighters can easily take out anything lighter when they close the gap, and that's how it should be, but every class needs a strength.

 

[Piet]

Ya as Tzone said you're thinking is off. It's not rock paper scissors. It's more like the trinity of any other mmo. dps, tank, healer. other games isn't dps beats healer and healer beats tank and tank beats dps it's just different ways to play. Mage would be horribly unbalanced if it could 1v1 and is made for support. dex is hella good at stickie or getting out of stickie but does less than heavy ff. Heavy ff is solid front line but can't really support easily or chase or escape. Different playstyles that all work well in group fights and all have different parts to play. The closest thing to rock paper scissors is mounted because there's much less tactics and thought involved.

 

[SirVirtuo]

Ya as Tzone said you're thinking is off. It's not rock paper scissors. It's more like the trinity of any other mmo. dps, tank, healer. other games isn't dps beats healer and healer beats tank and tank beats dps it's just different ways to play. Mage would be horribly unbalanced if it could 1v1 and is made for support. dex is hella good at stickie or getting out of stickie but does less than heavy ff. Heavy ff is solid front line but can't really support easily or chase or escape. Different playstyles that all work well in group fights and all have different parts to play. The closest thing to rock paper scissors is mounted because there's much less tactics and thought involved.

This good reply, makes sense.

 

[SirVirtuo]

I do wish however that a support function had more utility to offer support. Most spells out for ecu atm are direct damage, so it's almost implied that we attack things. But eh, healing horses is more effective atm.

 

[Xexorian]

Give me projectiles and AOE attacks and make fireball a projectile AND aoe attack, give us a lightning bolt that shoots out of my hand and hits a target and bounces to nearby crims or enemies, let holy spells like lesser heal damage undead creatures, or let us heal them and bring them back to life, give us more ways to damage/do things in PVE with spell types that give us that added damage, between some basic water, earth, fire and lightning spells, we should also get a water/earth spell that knocks people over if you land a good torso hit, or just more mechanics to magic than currently exist. The system seems really barebones and there's no real way to counter being out in the open against any archer, mage armor should increase the effects of Concentration slightly, to like 60-75% when wearing a full set. Staff magic should be really thought out how it's gonna play otherwise, "staff magic' seems like a new skill to both create staves and another to enchant them, that or the magic staff should have an elemental type if it's good, or no type if it's flimsy, with just a bonus to your spells, or enabling certain spells to become projectiles for example. I imagine ecumenical wouldn't be usable with staff based magic as well. I'd like to see a mage offhand that's lore-friendly and takes up their shield slot, either mage-shields, or a mage-weapon offhand, like an enchanted item, token, effigy, something, anything that's makes some sense. There could be wood-based shields that are also enchanted to be magical like the staffs, I assume. These could give you things like;
mana regeneration bonus
%mana regen bonus
%elemental dmg
%magical dmg
+raw damage to specific spells
%magical healing
+allow you to move and cast one type of spell
+make a spell an area of effect, ie: lesser healing = lesser healing circle +33% mana cost
+allow you to not spend reagents as often if ecumenical, or something similar for other schools of magic which we don't have yet
+%chance to critically hit a spell
+%reduced chance to be resisted
+siphon mana returned after landing a killing blow (ether ray)
+other spell specific effects
+Glowing, generates a light source around the character
+%mana bonus, giving you more mana pool or; +max mana
+%chance to deal area damage with spells
+bonus area dmg with spells
%chance to not consume mana or resources when casting a spell

anything that makes sense, and would fit in should be explored for balancing mage gameplay, I'd even consider some of this given the fact that we won't have a ton of magic in the game until way later after release. Ecumenical,Spiritism, and what, we get necromancy next? who knows.. & it's not like they couldn't remove things they wanted to change later on or hotfix items to disappear with those stats when you login/logout.

Last but not least, give mages a Hold Person/Hold Creature spell (a classic DND spell) since we have to sit still to cast, it would be interesting to see some form of CC/control spells being added, where Pysche would have a higher chance to resist them, and increase your chance to land them.

 

[Najwalaylah]

let holy spells like lesser heal damage undead creatures, or let us heal them and bring them back to life,

Nice!
No clue if that idea's borrwed from some other game, but this first time I see it, I like it. "Kicking the UN out of the UNDead". Have to wonder, tthough, if they're brought back to life:

• Does your patient stroll off into the nearest town or city center, and become lost to view forever?
• Does he go back home and frighten his children, his widow, and the second husband?
• Do some run off and begin their new (renewed) lives as bandits?
• (So. Many. Questions. with comedic possibilities.)

But as for you, the Ecumenical Mage:

• Does healing an Undead back to life make you a Necromancer, and isn't Necromancy traditionally a crime that Guards will detect once the results are walking around, re-animated?
• And last but not least, do you get any loot, and where would you get it from?