Aralis Enters the MO2 MMORPG Arena

KermyWormy

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May 29, 2020
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Exactly.
In order to have a population large enough to support a player driven economy you need the pillars that support the economy to be a fun and engaging activity and one that puts you actively out in the wild imo.
Thats where for the larger audience long timers are the opposite of all fun, engaging and active play.

Most systems like the broker is in need of a good QoL scrubbing to achieve a lasting population to hopefully make a player driven economy to work Id say.
The economy is always tricky to balance out. Things that work during booms in population cease to function when things die down like in MO1. So in theory a lot of the specialization from the first game might have appeared to function ok with a healthy population, but most of us experienced how it broke down when few people were playing. But I don't know really how it could be designed differently to function with low pop, when that is just a symptom of a dying game where it isn't just the economy suffering.

I also don't know how they could make extraction related jobs fun in the game. Most people do those things for the end result not the journey, the process in itself will always become a chore the more you do it however they implement it whether via a mini game or timer, or some other thing. Even more so when people only take part in those systems out of necessity in the first place.

The only caveat in regard to timers is that, while I don't enjoy them, they do serve a function of creating value to the materials themselves since the most common attributes for determining somethings value are it's time and difficulty to produce, which then constrains supply and scarcity creates value, and then you get the kind of tiers of value we have with products like flakestone, steal, cronite etc.

Many who were understandably frustrated with the timers in the first game wanted no timers at all, but asking for that is asking to disrupt the natural structure of the economy. That means that simply removing timers alone could never be a solution because it would create other disruptive problems. The solution would require turning other knobs at the same time to try to balance every other aspect of production, so if you shorten extraction then you'd need to increase mining times (which then becomes a bigger chore) or decrease durability heavily (which then kitting out your character more often becomes the chore). In any case where you turn one dial down, you've got to turn another one up to balance that change, which I am cool with. I feel like at least trying to iterate on prior systems is the best way to improve things, some of those changes might not work out, and in that case you still have the old way of doing things as a baseline to go back to.

They definitely need to figure out a way to encourage taking part in the greater economy tho by maximizing use of a broker with some QoL improvements. If they can get this aspect right it should help counter issues with both feeling the need to supply yourself with all your personal material or weapon/armor/potion/pet needs, and also make it so choosing to focus on any given production within those trades, such as only metal or raw materials would be viable enough for a players income.

If the barriers are low enough, and the tools useful enough we should be able to have base materials become commodities that are traded in high volume for competitive prices for all to make use of.
 
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Eldrath

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Jun 18, 2020
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the Jungle. Meditating on things to come.
I had plenty of fun extracting back in 2011. You guys do know that there are like 11 iterations of the farming simulator right? Different players like different play loops. You can´t make everything fun for everyone. Luckily you don´t have to but rather have to make it fun for a certain group of players who will then offer their services to the rest.

Timers on extraction machines also served to purpose of keeping risk when going up the material chain. With no timers you have to re balance the risk vs reward and probably the skillpoints spend as well. In my opinion it would make the system an irrelevant nuissance rather than a meaningful part of the player economy.

But the bigger question is what this has to do with Aralis, why is there straw on the ground and why is he wearing a mask?
 

ThaBadMan

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May 28, 2020
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The economy is always tricky to balance out. Things that work during booms in population cease to function when things die down like in MO1. So in theory a lot of the specialization from the first game might have appeared to function ok with a healthy population, but most of us experienced how it broke down when few people were playing. But I don't know really how it could be designed differently to function with low pop, when that is just a symptom of a dying game where it isn't just the economy suffering.

I also don't know how they could make extraction related jobs fun in the game. Most people do those things for the end result not the journey, the process in itself will always become a chore the more you do it however they implement it whether via a mini game or timer, or some other thing. Even more so when people only take part in those systems out of necessity in the first place.

The only caveat in regard to timers is that, while I don't enjoy them, they do serve a function of creating value to the materials themselves since the most common attributes for determining somethings value are it's time and difficulty to produce, which then constrains supply and scarcity creates value, and then you get the kind of tiers of value we have with products like flakestone, steal, cronite etc.

Many who were understandably frustrated with the timers in the first game wanted no timers at all, but asking for that is asking to disrupt the natural structure of the economy. That means that simply removing timers alone could never be a solution because it would create other disruptive problems. The solution would require turning other knobs at the same time to try to balance every other aspect of production, so if you shorten extraction then you'd need to increase mining times (which then becomes a bigger chore) or decrease durability heavily (which then kitting out your character more often becomes the chore). In any case where you turn one dial down, you've got to turn another one up to balance that change, which I am cool with. I feel like at least trying to iterate on prior systems is the best way to improve things, some of those changes might not work out, and in that case you still have the old way of doing things as a baseline to go back to.

They definitely need to figure out a way to encourage taking part in the greater economy tho by maximizing use of a broker with some QoL improvements. If they can get this aspect right it should help counter issues with both feeling the need to supply yourself with all your personal material or weapon/armor/potion/pet needs, and also make it so choosing to focus on any given production within those trades, such as only metal or raw materials would be viable enough for a players income.

If the barriers are low enough, and the tools useful enough we should be able to have base materials become commodities that are traded in high volume for competitive prices for all to make use of.
Yes it is hard to balance and make work but thats because you are dependent on active playing players for it to work and on top of that in a niche MMORPG category.
But my view is always prepare for the worst but hope for the best, not the other way around. Prepare for low pop but hope for a good healthy one.

And imo to have a healthy good population you need active things to do thats fun that brings players back. To make sure you have a good effective and working player ran economy imo you need fun, engaging and active way of doing it to draw players in.

Thats imo the reason it was the end result we wanted out of MO1 systems since they where boring chores you did mostly in safety while semi afk dual clienting doing other things. Not a good design Id say.

Yes timers is good for certain things but mostly time based. But what if extraction for example takes same amount of time but you have to actively do things instead of standing there counting down.

Butchery changing into standing there in the wild carving out what you need/get out of the animal instead of hauling carcass to town to stand at a bench staring at a timer.

Yes simply removing timers would serve no purpose but say making hunting a animal hard and time consuming and you can get rid of butchery timer to compensate for the added time to hunt and kill animals.

Extraction timers could simply go away by making mining ore take longer as in you get less per chop or something, imo its better to stare at a animation than a timer, youa re also in the wild doing it so you are actively playing out and about creating content for the rest of the pop.

I always say a big reason of MOs death is walls and the systems that take you out of the wilderness and into to towns/behind walls to do things.
 

Smough

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Jul 4, 2020
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I have a lot of respect for Aralis and I think his heart what was often in the right place but i also think he was one of the originators of the idea of walling off content, a major downturn in the game’s history. Maybe its just in my memory that way. Either way, if any of us ever get it in our heads that we are invincible, our assets too strong, or our guild unbreakable... eventually we will be humbled.
 

Favonius Cornelius

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Jun 4, 2020
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The Empire
Star Vault should pay Aralis to play; he'd cause countless players of various guilds to also play just to get at him.

Also Kubalai. Remember that guy who would hang out in Vadda?
 
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