Another Reason why Players Quit

[Valoran]

The perspective of the victim is "it's a full loot PvP game, i like that kind of games and like being kept on my toes, i expect being ganked and losing stuff, if it couldn't happen i wouldn't be playing this game". If your perspective is "PK are griefers" then you're playing a wrong game. Simple as that.

I never said all player killing is griefing, in fact I never mentioned the word grief once in my previous comments.

I'm talking about something quite specific, and I don't think we're on the same page.

 

[Valoran]

You can precariously analyze player behavior, nobody cares. What you can't do is harass people implying someone is a psychopath just because it ganked you, that the toxic community right there.

You didn't accuse me of anything, you can't really. Who doesn't understand how acting works, theres a whole baggage each individual has and direcly affects these actions, you ain't inventing gunpowder here dude.

I don't feel personally attacked, but i do feel theres a lot of toxic players that harrass other players trying to pull out real life shit and thats unacceptable.

You can judge players actions diegetically in context but implying those players are murderers irl because they do it on a game is harrassment. And thats just an example, an hyperbola and real nonetheless.

Yes theres people that can't abstract and won't understand this game is fiction, i'd say its all the people that get super upset when killed, all this crying about the world's design because they expect a mainstream instanced pvp game.

I really didn't saw myself explaining this, guess i was hoping anyone playing this game would understand it. Theres people unable to abstract that on a fiction anyone is" more than the real life persona, its the acting or roleplay component that some people ellaborate more than others. Some won't ever get into character and will just play themselves and thats part of the inhability to abstract, saying shit like "i can't murder people irl and i can't kill people ingame" is stablishing an extra-diegetic entailment between roleplay and reality, and thats not only unfair but mistaken.

Empathy is just a tool in the wide variety of behavior spectrum anyone can excersize diegetically, you can't asume someone is not empathic irl because they killed your piglet outside town, that would be fallacious and against the fiction itself. You could" asume and try to, judge diegetic behavior and stablish ill comparisons with reality, it would be idiotic tho, but you could.

Then again, you could analyze player behavior, diegetically, entirely. And that would be the only understandable and fair way to do it, in this context.

You bring that whole empathy thing, trying to stablish a link with reality. What are you trying to say, people does irl what they do ingame?

I myself, for example, roleplayed characters completly disposed of any empathy. Not because of that you can intuit im a sadistic person, and that wouldn't be only erroneous but fallacious. You are just mixing planes that shouldn't be mixed in this context, seen people that has this inherited vice of harrassing players, unable to abstract this is a fiction.

Im probably more empathic irl than many "good guys" playing the game. Some people roleplay themselves and their goodness, but when you actually see past that cheap morality, you start noticing theres people wanting to flex power, force people, replicate shitty social structures, denigrate people, be unfair and more but hey they are emphatic and don't murder innocents.

So yeah, i think this judgemental cheap morality is ass and shouldn't be used in this terms to discuss anything in the game, because it would be a flawed argument that wouldn't go anywhere. Yes, people that can't abstract this game is a fiction. Thats just the reality.

For example.



Grendel, under my off-diegetic eyes seems like a nice person, someone accessible, with its charisma and spark. But then, roleplayed a specist terrorist in the game, murdering other players. And not because of that im going to say this person is a psychopath or a bad person, or someone that kicks a dog in the balls when not playing. That would be fallacious out of place harrassment. Because i can understand this person is roleplaying, and creating a diegetic fictional character to play in the universe mortal offers.
And even if people is not roleplaying and act as themselves (never entirely in a fiction) it is not my or your place to judge. I accept theres people that can't abstract the fictional nature of the game, thats understandable. What is not understandable is when this people unable to sign in the fictional contract end up harrassing other players because they can't deal with it.


Yes, many (but not all) people unable to abstract this game which is a fiction end up asking for more and stronger punitive systems and behavioral hardbrakes. Because they can't understand mortal is another universe, with its own rules and context.

Throughout your message I only see you make two distinct points again, that some people can't abstract or differentiate the game from reality, and that some people who claim to be "good guys" end up being bad people.


The latter more so, but both of these points aren't really related to what i'm talking about.

It doesn't matter whether or not someone who has been killed is capable of telling the difference in impact of their death in a game and if someone tried to kill them in real life.

Just as it doesn't really matter if a person you murder in real life may turn out to be suicidal and want you to kill them anyway, judgement can and will be passed on the action itself regardless of the outcome.

Food for thought;

Can playing a sandbox game and acquiring items be a hobby?

If so, truly what is the difference between someone spending 4 hours collecting resources in the game, verses someone spending 4 hours building a sand castle at the beach in real life?

Were you to kill them in the game and take the things they have been gathering, you would effectively be wasting the 4 hours of time and effort they spent on their hobby. Just as you would be doing the same if you walked up and pushed over their sand castle.

What is the difference between the effects of these two actions, in reality?

That the things in question exist in digital space verses physical space? or that you are held accountable in the real world for one and not the other?

I think most people would agree it would be a cruel thing to push over someone's sand castle for no reason other than to see them be sad about it, but really, what is the difference here when you break down the actions and their associated consequences.

This is why I mention that it is likely the reverse is true, and certain people, meaning the ones in question who I am referring to in my reply to Grendel who are not role players, are actually either disassociating from reality and not acknowledging that there is a real human person on the other side of that screen who they are affecting, they haven't thought about it enough, or they're simply a cruel person.

You bring that whole empathy thing, trying to stablish a link with reality. What are you trying to say, people does irl what they do ingame?

On the contrary if you recall my previous reply to you:

At no point did I say people act the same way in real life as they do in games.

I said it reveals things about their character.

 

[Jatix]

Can playing a sandbox game and acquiring items be a hobby?

If so, truly what is the difference between someone spending 4 hours collecting resources in the game, verses someone spending 4 hours building a sand castle at the beach in real life?

Were you to kill them in the game and take the things they have been gathering, you would effectively be wasting the 4 hours of time and effort they spent on their hobby. Just as you would be doing the same if you walked up and pushed over their sand castle.

What is the difference between the effects of these two actions, in reality?

The fine print is that by playing an open pvp looting game, they pretty much signed on the line 'yes, I'm fine with another playing dunking on me and making me lose a ton of time'. To me its the high stakes version of killing a guy in a BR game. More risk, more possible reward. Persistent things make everything more satisfying, vs games that reset every round. Farming has more meaning, and killing people has more meaning. Killing them is fair play.

Which is why I think SV are ruining this game direction wise. They keep making changes to try and make people kill others less. But the only thing the game had going for it was open pvp. At the end of the day, this game is a really bad pve game. People who want to pve, progress, get more stuff, etc as their primary goal, really are playing the wrong game. So while Sv is trying to keep the PVE players who quit 90% of the time because its a bad pve game, they make the pvp players quit because its not a fun pvp game anymore either.

 

[Anabolic Man]

The fine print is that by playing an open pvp looting game, they pretty much signed on the line 'yes, I'm fine with another playing dunking on me and making me lose a ton of time'. To me its the high stakes version of killing a guy in a BR game. More risk, more possible reward. Persistent things make everything more satisfying, vs games that reset every round. Farming has more meaning, and killing people has more meaning. Killing them is fair play.

Which is why I think SV are ruining this game direction wise. They keep making changes to try and make people kill others less. But the only thing the game had going for it was open pvp. At the end of the day, this game is a really bad pve game. People who want to pve, progress, get more stuff, etc as their primary goal, really are playing the wrong game. So while Sv is trying to keep the PVE players who quit 90% of the time because its a bad pve game, they make the pvp players quit because its not a fun pvp game anymore either.

QA good game need to be attractive for PVE Playe3rs, PVP Players, Crafters and Roleplayers. Only if the game offer something for everyone it will be played by a large playerbase, if SV can fix all the bugs.

IMO we need that world events, player triggerd world events and TC, It would releave the dungeons, which are one of the only pvp hotspots now and this turn off the PVE Players a bit .

 

[Xronim]

not gonna directly say any guild or player names but there are players out there in this game that take stuff to the next level with baseless accusations, doxxing and harassment that can go on for weeks.

its happened to me after i killed someone and they decided it would be funny to have their friends make alts to spam friend requests on discord just to call me gamerwords over losing carapace armor and a steel sword. i didnt care and just have maybe 20 blocked users on discord and steam because of it, kind of annoying ngl

 

[Tashka]

I never said all player killing is griefing, in fact I never mentioned the word grief once in my previous comments.

You mentioned the inability to see the perspective of the victim, but there are just two perpectives really: "PK is expected and that's why i'm here" and "PK is griefing pls add more consequences".

 

[elmardito]

There is no way to control what people do or how people act, there are lots of players that are malicious and will always try to do something to mess things up or to annoy other players.
Does not matter the game, the play style or whatever the developers do there are going to be people annoying others.

 

[SeaShadow]

Hahaha.

Zergs were UsElEsS in the end. Now those kids cry "PVE is too stronk Henrik"!! at Necro, puzzled.

 

[Xronim]

mortal logic: outnumbering an enemy group by 2 or more is a zerg, but only when certain guilds do it, if content 10v2s someone its a "gank" not a zerg"

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

Throughout your message I only see you make two distinct points again, that some people can't abstract or differentiate the game from reality, and that some people who claim to be "good guys" end up being bad people.


The latter more so, but both of these points aren't really related to what i'm talking about.

It doesn't matter whether or not someone who has been killed is capable of telling the difference in impact of their death in a game and if someone tried to kill them in real life.

Just as it doesn't really matter if a person you murder in real life may turn out to be suicidal and want you to kill them anyway, judgement can and will be passed on the action itself regardless of the outcome.

Food for thought;

Can playing a sandbox game and acquiring items be a hobby?

If so, truly what is the difference between someone spending 4 hours collecting resources in the game, verses someone spending 4 hours building a sand castle at the beach in real life?

Were you to kill them in the game and take the things they have been gathering, you would effectively be wasting the 4 hours of time and effort they spent on their hobby. Just as you would be doing the same if you walked up and pushed over their sand castle.

What is the difference between the effects of these two actions, in reality?

That the things in question exist in digital space verses physical space? or that you are held accountable in the real world for one and not the other?

I think most people would agree it would be a cruel thing to push over someone's sand castle for no reason other than to see them be sad about it, but really, what is the difference here when you break down the actions and their associated consequences.

This is why I mention that it is likely the reverse is true, and certain people, meaning the ones in question who I am referring to in my reply to Grendel who are not role players, are actually either disassociating from reality and not acknowledging that there is a real human person on the other side of that screen who they are affecting, they haven't thought about it enough, or they're simply a cruel person.



On the contrary if you recall my previous reply to you:



I said it reveals things about their character.

We should start under the premise the game has it's own universe with it's own rulesets, it may have some similarities with reality but it obviously aint.

That good or Bad guys and the ability to abtract was mentioned just to define what's diegetic and what's not, what should be playing the game and what should be harrassing someone.

The comparison between the sand castle and the scene of getting ganked is ludicrous, but i'll Say what i think of it.

First, the rules of the game's universe are different from reality so you can compare those realities" to a certain extent. Any more outside those things enters the plane of "what it could/should' be".

In a civilized society, "reality" anyone investing 4 hours building a sand castle (particular ephemeral example) gets attacked by someone stomping the castle will end up on a potential spectrum of scenes (conflict) depending the context (be it all), which could últimately escalate (or not) to violent scenarios.
Obviously implying theres a variety of emotions that interpellate the individuals in this situation.
This generalizing because its not possible know entirely what would happen on this hypotethic idea.

Then, theres no gain on destroying a sand castle except maybe for a sadist but that wouldn't even be in question. While ganking someone for the loot or the gear is enough reason to do so.

Then in mortal, a fictional universe where mortality" plays a specific role in the configuration of that reality, in the concept of a partially civilized society (towns, guards and law) where players can opt for a spectrum of choices regarding player interaction. Those situations could revolve around consensual and non consensual conflict, the avoidance of conflict and cooperation.

You could after 4 hours of farming, see someone comming to you (or not) and considering mortal's universe social and mechanic rules you could asume someone would probably try to attack you just to steal your stuff just because it can.
Then you could asume it would be someone friendly but risking 4 hours farm to be cool with someone.

The golden rule is to never trust someone you aint certain' about. This is part of abstracting the game's ruleset.

I think it's really condescending and out of place to say someone is "dissociated" to forget the player they attack is a human person. The thing is thats the player's choice, and the universe rules.
You as a víctim have a criteria, resources and tools to understand how the social structures and mechanics operate in the game. So it ends up being a learning curve problematic to end up getting ganked, generally.

You could feel it's cruel when someone kills you just to get your loot, but thats just part of that universe and it's competitive nature. Any other comparison to reality is futile, now we could talk about balance but allways in the game's terms.

 

[Hodo]

mortal logic: outnumbering an enemy group by 2 or more is a zerg, but only when certain guilds do it, if content 10v2s someone its a "gank" not a zerg"

You are trying to apply logic to the smooth brained.

 

[SeaShadow]

Join a RP guild and enjoy losing or join a "10vp" guild I mean pvp guild and listen to condescension from some guy who sounds like he doesn't really like himself or the game. Tried the first one, they all quit. Tried the second one and couldn't have left the guild faster. The dude sounded stoned when he wasn't and like he needed a shower and a therapist, in that order. Not for my benefit but for his. He wasn't toxic, per se, just nothing to be inspired over, let alone be spoken to like a child by someone half my age not for every pixel in the game. The majority of guild leaders are some combination of this. Join or no join. If I wanted toxic I could just open my eyes in the morning and boot up "real life"

 

[Hodo]

Join a RP guild and enjoy losing or join a "10vp" guild I mean pvp guild and listen to condescension from some guy who sounds like he doesn't really like himself or the game. Tried the first one, they all quit. Tried the second one and couldn't have left the guild faster. The dude sounded stoned when he wasn't and like he needed a shower and a therapist, in that order. Not for my benefit but for his. He wasn't toxic, per se, just nothing to be inspired over, let alone be spoken to like a child by someone half my age not for every pixel in the game. The majority of guild leaders are some combination of this. Join or no join. If I wanted toxic I could just open my eyes in the morning and boot up "real life"

Unfortunately this is the state of the current generation. Half of them are braindead the other half dont know where the hell they are. Some cant even name the capital of their home nation.

 

[SeaShadow]

Unfortunately this is the state of the current generation. Half of them are braindead the other half dont know where the hell they are. Some cant even name the capital of their home nation.

I was honestly expecting a beating for that post but you agreed? Twilight zone.

 

[Hodo]

I was honestly expecting a beating for that post but you agreed? Twilight zone.

Oh I agree... To many people now days are halfbaked braindead special case that has some self diagnosed mental illness so they can mooch off of the system instead of becoming functional adult humans.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

Join a RP guild and enjoy losing or join a "10vp" guild I mean pvp guild and listen to condescension from some guy who sounds like he doesn't really like himself or the game. Tried the first one, they all quit. Tried the second one and couldn't have left the guild faster. The dude sounded stoned when he wasn't and like he needed a shower and a therapist, in that order. Not for my benefit but for his. He wasn't toxic, per se, just nothing to be inspired over, let alone be spoken to like a child by someone half my age not for every pixel in the game. The majority of guild leaders are some combination of this. Join or no join. If I wanted toxic I could just open my eyes in the morning and boot up "real life"

This Is sadly somewhat true. But thats what happens on the mayority of recruiting active guilds in any game to be honest.
Ive spent many years in MO1 having to hear retarded kids till we assumed as a leadership to kick anyone that was considered annoying and left only the people that could actually talk without being a retarded teenager or a dude that couldnt use push to talk eating cereal in comms.

@Hodo calls me toxic very often but it was him who got actually kicked from our comms for being a lil whiney bitch about everything he could.
Im not for that scale of gaming anymore, having to hear retarded people, i've done it already. But i guess discord has acceptable muting features.

Imagine what was to be in RPK's comms in MO1, shit was like if someone put a microphone on an orphanage.