Dex mages are the problem, not just MAGES (spell nerfs and 10 hp change is a bad idea)

Iloros

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Dec 14, 2023
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I will keep it short and it will be more of a ramble because I think pretty much everyone serious and non biased already agrees with this so it does not need much argumentation, people either agree or never will.

SV just announced that they are nerfing akh bond and several other spells as a response to massive dex mage being OP situation and outlash, where from my estimates about 70% of non town, non group PVP you see are dex mages, that pretty much win every matchup in general (there might be a nieche build that counters them that you make up, but people do not wanna run a specific build or 2 because of 1 class being OP)

As a response SV decides to nerf akh bond that benefits fatmages and hybrids, who are in a bad spot actually or at the very best balanced, meaning not a strong spot at all, it benefits those 2 builds more than it benefits dex mages who can just choose to stay at range if they decide melee is too dangerous versus most builds. What you do with this is just make dex mages play more cowardly which is even worse, and then you make the other magic builds that make up less than 5% of playerbase even more useless.

Solution? Nerf dex mages directly, you are creative enough to do it, make alvarins weaker at magic, give them lower int caps, give them weaker armor on sheevras and less attribute points, and make skinny and skeletal malournished classes less intelligent and maybe even remove people going under 10 str, and gaining tons of free points. I cant do that with int as a footie, why can they?

Also on the 10 hp buff, I actually told Neb to make a durability patch similar to what LoL did on PTR 1, and he said they are actually looking into that, fastforward to yesterday and they announce +10 hp for everyone, except that's not at all what we needed.
10 HP buff alone is miniscule (about 4% HP of an average footie) and who does it benefit the most? You guessed it! The strongest class in the game - dex mages that have the lowest HP and die by burst melee dmg that you have a limited window for because they will leave meele, now they are about 8% harder to kill in melee, coz 10 hp to them is way more to the dex mage, than it is to a footie that will range from 240-280 hp after this patch, making it on higher end just 3.5% of your hp.

Solution? Make it 5-10% hp instead of 10 flat hp, so an Oghmir gets the most (he needs it) and a dex mage gets the least (they don't need it at all)It wouldn't be op either because that means Oghmir with let's say 250 hp, now has 275 HP on 10%, or 262 HP on the 5%, while a dex mage at around 150 hp, has 165/157 hp. That is way more like it, and the people who need it, footies and high HP characters that still flop insanely fast in bigger fights will actually feel it.

If % is hard to do then just give humans, thursars and oghmirs 20 hp, and alvarins 10 hp. 10 flat hp for everyone buffs dex mages way harder than anyone else.



In short dex mages are OP and you need to directly target them with nerfs, or weak character with buffs, you cannot just nerf all magic users because of 1 out of 10 magic classes that have 90% pick rate. Magic is not OP, its just dex + magic, and not any other combo but Alvarin dex mage. So stop nerfing magic it will never fix the issue unless you make it do almost no damage, and nerf dex mages instead. Also the 10 HP buff needs to be a % hp buff. Becuase higher HP characters (oghmirs, fatmages, lancers...) in general are just weaker than lower HP characters (Dex mages, dex footies, MAs) and adding flat HP benefits lower HP characters.
 
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Jackdstripper

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The reason why you see only dex mages in non-group pvp is because that the only mage build left that can actually survive alone.

Any other build requires constant protection from a pocket melee. Abilities just dish out too much damage now for any mage to be able to survive close encounters without instant peels.

So now you want to nerf the ONLY viable mage build left in the game. And why? Because you play a fat, 265+ hp melee character and cant be bothered to use a long bow( which by the way all bows have been hugely buffed with abilities). You know how i know that? Because those that play diving vheelas dont complain much about mages. They kill them all the time.

At this point just remove mages altogether from the game and be done with it. Your post is nothing about fairness, just selfish melee cry baby that hates the one build which counters him. Get a long bow, reflect potions, and learn to hit a moving target.
 

Iloros

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The reason why you see only dex mages in non-group pvp is because that the only mage build left that can actually survive alone.

Any other build requires constant protection from a pocket melee. Abilities just dish out too much damage now for any mage to be able to survive close encounters without instant peels.

So now you want to nerf the ONLY viable mage build left in the game. And why? Because you play a fat, 265+ hp melee character and cant be bothered to use a long bow( which by the way all bows have been hugely buffed with abilities). You know how i know that? Because those that play diving vheelas dont complain much about mages. They kill them all the time.

At this point just remove mages altogether from the game and be done with it. Your post is nothing about fairness, just selfish melee cry baby that hates the one build which counters him. Get a long bow, reflect potions, and learn to hit a moving target.
No, it's not that you see dex mage as the only MAGE build in small scale, it's that they are the ONLY build in small scale for the most part.
And you agree with me you just think dex mages are balanced and fatmages are weak, whereas I think dex mages are OP, and fatmages are weak/balanced.

One build, that's unappealing btw (mages historically had way lower play rate and do have that in almost all games where you have options between meele and magic) is 70ish % of playrate in small scale because it has no counters, and it actually hard counters most builds.
Longbow, reflect pots and learning to fight moving target is what everyone tried for months, and now we are at 400 average pop with 250 rat mages and 150 dudes in towns waiting for a zvz ping.
 

Iloros

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Dec 14, 2023
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The reason why you see only dex mages in non-group pvp is because that the only mage build left that can actually survive alone.

Any other build requires constant protection from a pocket melee. Abilities just dish out too much damage now for any mage to be able to survive close encounters without instant peels.

So now you want to nerf the ONLY viable mage build left in the game. And why? Because you play a fat, 265+ hp melee character and cant be bothered to use a long bow( which by the way all bows have been hugely buffed with abilities). You know how i know that? Because those that play diving vheelas dont complain much about mages. They kill them all the time.

At this point just remove mages altogether from the game and be done with it. Your post is nothing about fairness, just selfish melee cry baby that hates the one build which counters him. Get a long bow, reflect potions, and learn to hit a moving target.
And you are exactly what I adressed in the first sentence, biased mage player that cannot comprehend a mage build can be OP and clearly is too high pick rate.
 

Jackdstripper

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And you are exactly what I adressed in the first sentence, biased mage player that cannot comprehend a mage build can be OP and clearly is too high pick rate.
And yet in every single group fight mages are always the minority of the group. You are full of shit dude.

You are always coming up against a single mage in 1vs1 and being frustrated that you cant chase them down. Thats your problem with your build. Not a balance problem in group fights.
 

Iloros

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And yet in every single group fight mages are always the minority of the group. You are full of shit dude.

You are always coming up against a single mage in 1vs1 and being frustrated that you cant chase them down. Thats your problem with your build. Not a balance problem in group fights.
Group fighs, it matters less what you play and a minority of the gameplay. Nobody even said group fights.

Small scale is what needs to be balanced as it's most gameplay. In all games btw, look at any game of this genre that is actually popular. You can't expect people that wanna play a wide variety of builds to always wait for mates to play for them. Not sustainable.
And they are not even weak in group fights.

And yes, I run a build I wanna run and everyone I run into is a dex mage that wins all 1v1 which is making me play the game less, same thing happened to many people and they left, that's precisely the point. 70% of non group non town PVP is dex mages.
 

Iloros

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And I mean group fights in mortal are ran so infrequently to a point where you have no trial and error to decide what is a good or a bad comp, genuinely. There's literally been days without a single team fight happening especially in the current state. Small scale? EVery day, trial and error, results? Dex mages win.
 

Jackdstripper

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Group fighs, it matters less what you play and a minority of the gameplay. Nobody even said group fights.

Small scale is what needs to be balanced as it's most gameplay. In all games btw, look at any game of this genre that is actually popular. You can't expect people that wanna play a wide variety of builds to always wait for mates to play for them. Not sustainable.
And they are not even weak in group fights.

And yes, I run a build I wanna run and everyone I run into is a dex mage that wins all 1v1 which is making me play the game less, same thing happened to many people and they left, that's precisely the point. 70% of non group non town PVP is dex mages.
At least you dont deny the real reason you are here complaining about the ONE build that counters your build. Sorry dude, but balance is not cantered around picking ONE build you like, and then nerfing any counter build. Your build should not be the un-counterable build. All builds have counters. Thats balance.

I told you why the only mage you ever encounter 1vs1 is a dex mage. Because any other mage cannot survive alone. The only way a mage can survive alone is to be a dex mage. Take that away and there is no point playing a mage at all. That is not balance. Thats just you wanting to have no counter in game.
 

Emdash

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maybe even remove people going under 10 str,

that is a great idea.

I would also be cool with seeing the low wt classes take a nerf to their mana as well. Maybe their psyche? Make them a bit more squish against magic then, too. +20 / +10 int -20 / - 10 psyche, must have effective 10 in str.

We could start with that haha.
 

Iloros

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that is a great idea.

I would also be cool with seeing the low wt classes take a nerf to their mana as well. Maybe their psyche? Make them a bit more squish against magic then, too. +20 / +10 int -20 / - 10 psyche, must have effective 10 in str.

We could start with that haha.
Something is needed for sure
 

Iloros

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At least you dont deny the real reason you are here complaining about the ONE build that counters your build. Sorry dude, but balance is not cantered around picking ONE build you like, and then nerfing any counter build. Your build should not be the un-counterable build. All builds have counters. Thats balance.

I told you why the only mage you ever encounter 1vs1 is a dex mage. Because any other mage cannot survive alone. The only way a mage can survive alone is to be a dex mage. Take that away and there is no point playing a mage at all. That is not balance. Thats just you wanting to have no counter in game.
Re-read what I said. You didn't even respond to it. Dex mage counters my build alongside all the other builds, because its OP. Its not my build specific, they literally win all 1v1s at higher level while also clearing mobs the fastest and having highest utility. They are overrepresented and they need nerfs.
 

MortalEnjoyer42069

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Wow. Nerfing ahk bond is a terrible idea. I agree with you that they should just nerf them directly. Fix attribute under leveling and you have essentially "nerfed" dex mages. No more +50 free points. Require all builds to maintain 10 in every attribute and you won't have these build extremes crutching on extreme weight classes.
 

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Gnidex

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The game doesn't really have any sort of class balance at all and never will due to SV not having the staff or skill to get it done.
 
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MortalEnjoyer42069

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The game doesn't really have any sort of class balance at all and never will due to SV not having the staff or skill to get it done.
Eh. I really don't think it's a manning issue. It's really a lack of critical thinking. Let's talk about just the 10 HP change that this thread is based on.

So SV finally accepted after four years of TTK reduction, that the TTK is too fast. Great. Fantastic step in the right direction. What does SV do? Oh, let's just add 10 HP... It is the most lazy, thoughtless action towards balance that will most likely further reduce TTK instead of raise it.

On my first point. How is this thoughtless you might ask? Well, as Iloros pointed out, this flat increase in HP gives already low HP builds a larger percentage increase relative to their current HP value.

For example:

A 120 HP rat mage is receiving a HP buff of 8.33%, where as a 220 HP Oghmir 4.54%. Obvious balance problem considering the low HP races like the Alvarin have low HP because they have better offensive abilities like magic, speed, weak spot, and armor penetration.

Contrary to Iloros' opinion, I don't think that a percentage increase in HP addresses the problem with an HP increase as it still disregards the different racial benefits and proper build planing, and more importantly, percentage scalers are just a bad idea in general. The game is plagued with percentage modifiers that are out of control like the bonus damage (trinkets) and speed clades. If SV were to actually think for three seconds they would have increased the scalar on consitution to something like 1.1x instead of 1.0x, or given the player a 1 HP bonus for every 10 con that they have. I'm in favor of the later as this rewards people for good build planning that already interacts with the 10 and 20 point bonuses that we have in game AND rewards players for playing different races.

As to my second point on how this will actually lower TTK instead of raise it, comes back to lifestealers and importantly mages. A 10 HP increase on a mage is massive increase to their effective HP pool as they have the ability to heal and lifeleech with death hand. A mage and life leecher is now getting multiple health bars more of 10 HP than any other character making their ability to kill with life leech more effective. A heal bot mage is getting just as strong as an effect without the obvious benefit of damage they would deal with death hand.

TLDR this patch buffs rat mages and makes them more deadly despite the illusion that you have more HP.
 

GoblinP

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Why nerf the mages' dex?. let's give other classes methods to fight them. I think it would be very cool to be able to break through the magic shield. The more STR the character has, the more likely it is to break through this shield. In this way, we achieve two goals.
1. There is a clear way to fight dex mages.
2. It makes sense to play a human paladin. Just throw it corrapt.
3. The human paladin is no longer a gimpy. It has its own niche. He will be able to fight Tursars on equal terms. This will have a very positive impact on class balance and gameplay variety
 

Slarti Bartfast

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Ahk bond nerf was shit. Right after I leveled necro to get it is why it feels more shit. Then I had to relevel again b/c they didn't just nerf it, they upped the skill req'd and messed around with skill req'd on other necro abilities. Wtf?

My bulging mage ass had finally found something to give me a little more survivability. I got it again b/c I need it, but I have yet to determine if it is worth it now. We'll see. Doesn't seem like it will be worth it when a two handed axe fella ran up and pretty much chopped me in half with 90 and another 90 in bout 4 secs without ahk bond the other day. Even if dulled by ahk bond, that kind of damage at that speed is wild.

I know I'm a filthy casual, but I worked hard to move toward an ahk bond build as a bulging mage... and this just felt shitty.

At least it crosses nodelines some of the time now? Though sometimes I feel like it falls off even though buff icon is still there... but now there's no message in chat for me to be able tell (used to say "Can only ahk bond animals you own" or something when I'd cross a nodeline and it'd fall off).
 

Iloros

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Why nerf the mages' dex?. let's give other classes methods to fight them. I think it would be very cool to be able to break through the magic shield. The more STR the character has, the more likely it is to break through this shield. In this way, we achieve two goals.
1. There is a clear way to fight dex mages.
2. It makes sense to play a human paladin. Just throw it corrapt.
3. The human paladin is no longer a gimpy. It has its own niche. He will be able to fight Tursars on equal terms. This will have a very positive impact on class balance and gameplay variety
You nerf them because they are OP, you cannot kill them by being tankier the point is you can't get rid of them as they have unlimited stam and speed compared to you with multiple oh shit buttons where even if you somehow manage to get to them they can pop clades and be unreasonably fast. And generally its easier to nerf 1 overperforming class than to buff every other character just nerf Alvarins