He is completely out of touch and plays a naked sheevra archer or some shit and his buddy carries him. Literal schizo.
Alvarin nerf is too small and will fix none of the issues.
- Thread starter Iloros
- Start date
A) An alvarin of that strength is going to trade a lot of dex, and so runs slower; and now is substantially more vulnerable in melee combat. So at the point their bow is near the strength of a thursar, their speed advantage is massively reduced; especially since you're pretending this alvarin is using strength trinkets. So no, it isn't a big deal at all.
B) Second, they have to use their ability; which is on a very long cooldown, and compromises their escape ability. It also only works against armor.
Thursars can literally regenerate health through attacking. Have HUGE melee buffs.
Alvarins are clearly designed to be fast bow wielders; thursars are designed to be high melee damage dealers.
The strength alvarins gain from a bow, was likely scaled to match the melee advantage thursars gain from their clades. So, again, there is no advantage; it is a trade-off.
Each are better in differing scenarios. I mean, thursars are overwhelming in melee. Are we seriously going to say that alvarins range ability is not roughly even to the amount a thursar overwhelms in melee? Have you been shot by a thursar arrow?
Alvarin's bow abilities should roughly line up with a thursar's capacity to overwhelm in melee. Thursars are EXTREMELY overwhelming in melee. So much so, that their advantage in melee outweighs alvarin advantage with a bow.
With one stat, they get to dominate melee, and do more damage more consistently.
You're trying to argue for the advantages of one race, whilst ignoring the advantages of the others. Yes, if we leave out thursar's advantages, it looks bad. Add them? And suddenly you see you've overinflated things massively.
Last edited:
She* and you've literally lost every single argument you've ever had with me ever. Easily too i might add. As has mortal also just lost the argument to me too.
You argue from a position as if thursars have no advantages, as soon as you introduce them, you realize the position is idiotic. Yes, alvarins are good with a bow, as thursars are good in melee. That's one of the trade-offs you idiot.
You want Alvarins to be useless at range, unable to escape, and terrible in melee. You are a complete idiot. I'm not saying this to insult you, but because it is just the truth.
Last edited:
He is completely out of touch and plays a naked sheevra archer or some shit and his buddy carries him. Loteral
Their speed isnt reduced its literlaly the meta Alvarin build and it cant get TOUCHED by non alvarins LMAO.
And no they do more damage this is testable, armor piercei s a massive boost and lasts long enough to kill a guy, with no healing? It's instantly winning them a fight.
You are wrong about everything you utter it's nuts.
Another strawman, I dont't argue from that position, obviously every race has advantages, Alvarins don't have higher EVERY SINGLE STAT EVER than all the other races, that has never happened in any game.
You are strawman spamming and ignoring all the points. Alvarin with range, meta outdamages Thursars heavily with a bow, because armor pierce >>>>> 5 strength difference.
Err, yes they can be touched. What are you even talking about?
A veela with strength rings who is stout is going to get caught very easily.
"Lasts long enough to kill a guy".. Wow, very precise. Just like thursars can kill substantially faster in melee range then.
Again, it is a trade-off.
You saying i'm wrong, and you actually proving it, are two different things.
Last i checked, you don't know what a "strawman argument" is; i literally had to explain it to you infront of everyone in the nave chat.
Your argument is: Alvarins have too much of an advantage, that is the very argument i'm going against. My critique was that purposely leaving out the advantages other races gets makes the argument look strong; but when added, it shows it just isn't accurate. THAT was why i brought up advantages being left out. It was not a strawman at all, it was a critique of your argument strategy (both of you infact).
Alvarins do not out damage thursars at range. Why? Because thursars have more strength than alvarins. This benefits them both in range, and in melee.
Infact, thursar strength is so high, that even with the clade advantage alvarins have, thursars still do more bow damage.
Now, you want to talk about the armor penetration buff, which is on a 5 minute cooldown or something; i remember going over the times, even with mastery, and it was huge, you literally tried to portray it as if this buff was active at nearly all times, which was absurd.
A) It comes at the cost of losing escape utility
B) Armor penetration becomes less beneficial the worse a person's armor is, against lower armors, higher raw damage is actually more beneficial. You're trying to argue this is objectively superior. No. ONLY against very heavy armor.
So basically.. Thursars are better at killing mages at range than alvarins will ever be; and alvarins may only get a slight edge for a few seconds every 5 minutes or something. Yet, you're STILL pretending this is massively unfair; when in melee range, you'll carve through someone in armor like butter.
Clearly you don't understand that this buff is infact very limited, and comes at great cost.
Overall, you will still benefit from more damage as a thursar.
I do know what it is. You are just lying on repeat. Thursar does less damage than Alvarin with armor pierce, subsstantially less, Alvarin uses a bow with just 5 less strength than a strongest Thursar after masteries. Obviously armor pierce is better vs higher tier armors, that has 0 correlation with the Alvarin/Thursar argument, as even versus weakest pvp ready armor, armor pierce overshadows 5 str by far.
You are clueless and don't understand numbers, you do less damage as a Thursar, nobody dpses for 5 mintues with a bow and even then it'd be ultra close becuase 5 strength bow especially when you raelize you have faster draw speed, dps is pretty much the same, and then alvarin has smaller hitbox and armor peirce. It's a no contest.
They need to giga nerf Alvarins either way.
He can't get caught very easily at all, again you are completely clueless. Stout veela is literally meta Veela nad they are basically immortal to other races... Just completely wrong about everyting as I said.
I get caught on a lean veela with dex rings whilst running in a straight line, if that can happen, a stout veela has no chance.
You're talking from the perspective of the slowest moving thursar, so of course you naively think a stout veela seems fast. They aren't. ESPECIALLY if they're using strength trinkets.
WRONG.
Armor pierce gets worse the lighter the armor someone is wearing. It isn't a hard damage increase.
So, let's say it DOES go above thursar damage for those few seconds, it only does so against heavy armor, and for a very short period of time.
Meanwhile, thursars get substantial melee bonuses.
So yes, that is a trade-off.
Thursars are built to be melee fighters, which compliments their health and melee damage; alvarins are built to use bows. Which compliments their speed.
So, even despite alvarins not being able to use as good a bow as a thursar, you want to nerf them, for a buff that only works against heavy armor, and lasts a few seconds for a massive cooldown AND removes their escape potential substantially... AND they have to be stout with trinkets to even get close to thursar bows? When, let's be real, arrows aren't much of a threat to heavy armor, and so. It is a redundant advantage at best.
Meanwhile, thursars are near one-shotting people in melee. I mean, anyone who has fought with a thursar as a non-thursar knows how dangerous it feels. It is like you don't understand the massive melee advantage thursars have, and that there is a very deliberate trade-off.
You have to play thursar to your strengths. That means you might have a tough time in the open, as you're a bigger target. With your size comes a substantial melee damage increase however. Thursars are for dungeons and close-quarters. They not meant to be jogging in the open without a mount. Even in large battles, they're huge targets.
It is like if a veela gets caught in a melee range, and they get "sticky backed" or whatever they say. They 're dead.
You have to think as well, thursars have clades that feed off melee combat too; i mean, if you are caught at range, you've made a mistake. Your entire game should be avoiding that range. That means staying near something you can stand behind at all times.
Also, consider carrying a shield, as they are HIGHLY effective against archery, and massively limit their ability. I sometimes think melee players forget shields even exist.
Last edited:
I was saying that for years brother, and I dunno. Gimme a sec to try something out and I will let you know how doggy it is. thur khur yea.
Literally a skill issue. Lean Veela with dex rings shouldn't be getting caught by non alvarins ever. You are either lying or zig zagging because you are 65 iq.
It's a very hard damage increase, and you literally just repeated yourself with 0 numbers or evidence. I will just refer you to my comment above I guess coz you seem to not have read it.
Thursar Ohgmir and Human do drastically less bow damage than Alvarins due to armor pierce and weakspot and the fact that they still use 120 str bows.
Alvarins got their first nerf, and there is a lot more to come. You do not get "sticky backed" for more than 1-2 hits depending on the weapon and it's super easy to parry, unless you are naked (which you always are because you are poor) it's not an issue.
Shields are not effective and nobody but oghmirs can use them and they are expensive, Thursars and Humans are too big and too low armor weight to use shields. You keep proving you know nothing of the game, becuase you are a naked sheevra getting carried by your team, not far either.
NO, it is not a hard damage increase you idiot.
The WORSE your armor, the LESS you benefit from the buff.
Not everyone is walking around in heavy armor. So, as a thursar, you are better off when shooting someone in light/medium armor.
Humans SHOULD do less bow damage, because they are adjusted for OTHER things. They're the ultimate hybrid race.
It isn't all about bow damage, stop ignoring the benefits the other races have in place of what alvarins have.
Finally, shields are highly effective; a tower shield near completely obscures the body. Yes, any race can use them, my god, SHEEVRAS run around with them at times. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. Yes, they're overweight, does it matter? That is the trade-off to be near immune to archery. Too big to use a tower shield? LOL what?? No you idiot. What are you even saying at this point?
Oh, they're expensive? Well, yes, i imagine near immunity to arrows would be expensive. But then you'd start crying about mages (which to be fair, mages are ridiculous).
Also, this last comment about being carried, is because i killed you, on my own. Easily too, whilst you were trying to run back to Tindrem, it was hilarious LOL.
Again, it being smaller increase in worse armor does not automatically equate to Thursar doing more damage in weaker armor and yes most people are in plate either way.
You literally are repeating a disproven point. Even vs weak pvp ready armor Alvarin with armor pierce does way more damage than a Thursar does with a ranged weapon. You are clueless.
Shields are not effective are too expensive for no gain restrict you massively weapon wise and dont even work on non Oghmirs.
You never killed me on your own. You are literally spam lying for propaganda on forums noone reads atp, so pathetic. Post a clip of you solo killing me Ill give you everything I own lmao. You are getting carried by your 2 MA overlords and all 3 of your builds got nerfed and will get nerfed again.
Sheevras run with them because they are in the lightest shittiest armor ever ans they use prepatch... You dont know anything about this game literally.
And it is about bow damage because of conteyt of this conversation which is nerfed healing giga buffs bows = Alvarins keep winning as by far the best bow users. 60 iq... cant track anything I have to draw things for you.
Galighting
"repeating a disproven point"
I've literally proven you wrong on EVERYTHING in detail.
12% armor penetration is tiny. Like, do you even know how bad that is?
A max strength thursar is 133 (if mortal data is accurate), with trinkets, since we're talking about a veela with trinkets.
A max veela bow, with strength trinkets, is what? 122?
So, you have a roughly +11 STRENGTH advantage on a veela with max strength.
So, your bow is STILL better; and is actually stronger against people with light/medium armor. It might actually be completely even with alvarins, or stronger than with the alvarin buff. If i worked out the exact percent increase of 1 strength, as it relates to bows, i could tell you.
You quite literally have a race that is better with a bow, than the race that specializes in bows, and you are still pretending it is unfair, with a MASSIVE 32% damage bonus from height. You need to get a grip.
Meanwhile, alvarins have a 12% damage bonus or something in melee. 20% ABOVE alvarins... Like, are you insane? This again is ignoring thursar clade bonuses.
"Alvarins can use a bow that is almost as good as mine!!!"
Yes, and you can basically kill people in two hits in armor in melee range. And have a bow that works just as well, if not better, than a buffed alvarin. What is your point?
The real reason strength is just a better stat overall, than a temporary armor pierce of 12%, is that it is more versatile across the board. It is useful in more areas on a permanent basis.
What i will say is this: If armor works by giving a flat reduction in damage, and not a percent decrease, strength will basically always be superior until you get to levels of impossible armor. If it is a percent decrease, then armor penetration becomes about as good as 11 strength difference around the 50-60% range. Of course, this also depends entirely on how strength works as a stat exactly, through weapons etc, which is looks like nobody has nailed down exactly how it all works; including armor.
People seem to lean towards a flat reduction; which, if it is the case, then Thursars still have a superior bow even with an alvarin being buffed.
Really, someone should do a test. No, not you Iloros, i'm sure you're about to lie and say you've tested it, and alvarins do 1 billion more damage.
Last edited:
Noone is talking about meele dmg. Debate is on archery damage qhich is only impacted by the bow you use and Alvarins can use 120s while Thursars use 125s max.
So its less than 5% dmg difference at a cost for stam and speed of attack and then you give Alvarins smaller hitbox and armor pierce which boosts bow damage against low tier armor by a minimum of 10% in the qorst of the worst armors and maximum of like 300%? If you are in oghmium, its 20-30% boost easy on average so you are getting demolished by Alvarins bow to bow and till that and their magic offensive potency and tbh meelee aswell gets nerfed they wont be balanced if you removed healing Alvarins would be the best just like they are now plus its a big ask.
You don't track the conversation and keep changing the topic. Read our original disagreement.
"12% armor pen is tiny" - me when I dont know math and only wear fullgrain leather because Im an inferior being in almost every way.
LOL
You saying i don't know the math; when you don't seem to understand how percentages work.
The max thursar strength possible is 133, according to mortal data. We were talking about max possible strength.
So this is a +11 strength advantage versus the max possible strength of an alvarin.
Stop with the lies, it is right there on mortal data, i've checked it several time.
The armor provides a flat damage reduction. Do you know what that means? It means more strength is SUPERIOR to armor penetration when it comes to dealing more damage. +11 strength beats 12% armor pen all the way up until the armor is at some ridiculous number, that isn't possible in the actual game.
This means thursar bows are better across the board, even when alvarins are buffed. When Alvarins are unbuffed, that gap becomes even bigger.
WHY IS MELEE DAMAGE IMPORTANT?
Because alvarins were given these bow advantages because of race balance.
Just like thursars have grossly overpowered melee damage.
They have different specializations. So when mentioning the bow advantage, you have to measure it against the advantages OTHER clades have.
Is the benefit proportionate to the advantages a thursar has in melee? I would say a thursar actually comes out with a greater benefit in the melee area, than an alvarin does in ranged with a bow; especially given that thursars do more damage with a bow.
The ONLY thing alvarins really have that is unfair, is alvarin sight; since it removes an entire dimension (the ability to hide) from the game. Which is just bad design, and very zerg friendly.
Everything else is the fault of being able to combat heal/heal whilst mobile.
Again just false... Your numbers are completely wrong and you are a liar.
Max Alvarin bow str is 128, max Thursar is 133, that's 5 str diff and only about 4% difference in damage.
For 12% armor pierce to increase your damage by 4% and upwards, you qould need ONLY 20 pierce defense on your armor which EVERY SINGLE ARMOR EVEN FULLGRAIN LEATHER HAS. Average pvp armor has 40-65 pierce at which point 12% armor pierce is giving 10-20% increased damage.
These numbers basically mean that versus pansar which everyone is using at 60ish pierce def Alvarins during armor pierce are basically using a 160 str bow with a draw speed of a 120 str one, because it is a 120 str one.
You are full of lies and you don't even know the numbers.
We are not debating on vibes here either. Thursars meele damage is also nothing special in dront of armor pierce let alone bows which Alvarins do only 4% less damage with even without armor pierce and then with armor pierce they do way more obviously WITH A FASTER BOW BTW.
Alvarins have unfair bow usage compared to other races and their speed is absurd.
That is why vaat majority of people play rhem even after the nerf and human buff and that is why someone as challenged as you no offense is even able to play.
Saying 11 str (which it isnt even 11 btw its 5) beats 12% armor pierce until some crazy armor amount that isnt possible is just proof that you are not a serious person at all, you don't know math, you don't know your characrers stats yet you are here defending it because that crutch is literally the only way you and many other Alvarin apologists can even stay in the game.
Though for every one of you that stays because your race is so op it allows even you to play, there is 10 players that wanna enjoy other builds and get destroyed by actual good Alvarins that cant play the game and leave due to that.
So we need another nerf. Bows got a decent double nerf, Alvarins got a double nerf thats very small and doesnt cover all builds but I am sure there will be more.