Hammers

[Kaquenqos]

Is there any purpose to hammers atm?

It seems to me that they have a high risk of handle hits, due to this have a much smaller reach & sweet spot for a good hit, have no viable thrusting option (yet you can't turn thrusting off...), and only do about the same damage as other weapons when you do beat all the odds and land a hit.

So basically what I'm saying is, with all of these downsides what is even their purpose? You can say, "Oh well they're good if you get good with them"... Ok, but other weapons are easier to get good with, and if you get good with hammers what is your reward? You're still going to be lesser than sword/pole/spear users for all intents and purposes, with the slower attack speed reach & inevitable handle-hits.

Been trying to like this weapon, but I'm starting to feel it is just trash tier and has no purpose. Why did SV even include them? Same with axes, but at least with axes you can get pole-axes; hammers are literally a waste of skill points.


The ONLY silver lining I can find for hammers is that mid-tier resources are comparatively a bit better on hammers than bladed weapons... But that's a stretch because nobody is going to want to be using mid-tier resources for anything meaningful anyway. It's pretty irrelevant all things considered... unless you want to invest 100 points to have a cheap PvE weapon...

Is this weapon a complete waste of skill points? Is there any weapon in Nave as useless as the hammer? Thoughts?

 

[Raknor]

Hammers are blunt damage based so their theoretical strength is versus heavy armored people. I do agree on some points though

 

[Kaquenqos]

Hammers are blunt damage bonus so their theoretical strength is versus heavy armored people. I do agree on some points though

I agree, but blunt damage isn't implemented in any meaningful way.

That is, blunt defense is just treated like any other stat & most armor has high blunt defense... basically meaning you just do the same damage as everyone else in 99% of situations anyway. Initially that was my thinking, 'of course hammers will do more damage to plate than bladed weapons'-- but seems like most armors just have all the stats pumped up including blunt making this advantage virtually non-existent.

If blunt/slashing etc. damage was implemented in a realistic way, which I admit would be hard to do, this might matter... Or even if the blunt defense stat was naturally lower to make the hammer have some use... Even games like Elden Ring/Dark Souls have blunt damage implemented in a more meaningful way, where it gives more dmg vs. heavy armor where heavily armored opponents have high slashing mitigation... This is a pretty basic sensible way to do these things and what I expected would be the common sense approach here.

But no,
the blunt damage is irrelevant and offers the hammer no real advantage. Blunt is given no special consideration, unfortunately.

So that's the thing, you simply don't do more damage for using blunt, and have a shit-tier moveset to deal with for no advantage.

 

[Rhias]

Steel/guard fur armor got ~15 less blunt defense than slashing.
For cronite / blood silk it's ~25 points difference.
So they do counter expensive armor.
However, their hitboxes are shit and I would always use an axe over a club.

 

[Kaquenqos]

Steel/guard fur armor got ~15 less blunt defense than slashing.
For cronite / blood silk it's ~25 points difference.
So they do counter expensive armor.
However, their hitboxes are shit and I would always use an axe over a club.

I assume you are looking at stats rather than raw damage?

How does it actually translate into damage per hit? I suspect not to a meaningful difference really, especially considering the odds you create for yourself using a slow terrible hit-box weapon.

Like, if I do 55 damage with a hit instead of 50 against plate while using a garbage moveset that's a huge net-loss still. In my experience I seem to do very close to the same damage as people using bladed weapons vs. heavy armor.

 

[Raknor]

Steel/guard fur armor got ~15 less blunt defense than slashing.
For cronite / blood silk it's ~25 points difference.
So they do counter expensive armor.
However, their hitboxes are shit and I would always use an axe over a club.

Yeah their hitbox is their main issue. They're also so slow that they're useless outside of group combat since they're so easy to parry 1v1

They get awesomeness points though...

 

[Kaquenqos]

Yeah their hitbox is their main issue... also so slow...

Right, and I'm not arguing against that...

Just saying that if you are going to make the 'blunt damage' argument then I feel like it should be a substantial difference, even just to make them useful in niche situations...

Otherwise hammers are just useless.

 

[Raknor]

Right, and I'm not arguing against that...

Just saying that if you are going to make the 'blunt damage' argument then I feel like it should be a substantial difference, even just to make them useful in niche situations...

Otherwise hammers are just useless.

As a niche you have their dismount capability.

 

[Kaquenqos]

As a niche you have their dismount capability.

Yeah, I guess that's a niche thing...

Good luck landing that hit in an actual pvp setting lmao


Even if it was something that happened more than once in a lifetime, that niche situation isn't worth 100 points.


I don't think there is a lot to defend re: hammers. Horrible and terribly balanced weapon type. Literally nobody uses them except noobs who have to learn the hard way like me lmao

They're not even just a bit worse, they're substantially worse than their competition to the point that the coolness factor doesn't even come close to making up for it.

 

[Raknor]

Yeah i agree they're generally in a bad place - I was just giving the few things they have in their favor, not saying that makes it right.

And the 1 handed hammers are just a joke - that is pretty much the only thing worse than a 2 handed hammer

 

[Hodo]

Is there any purpose to hammers atm?

It seems to me that they have a high risk of handle hits, due to this have a much smaller reach & sweet spot for a good hit, have no viable thrusting option (yet you can't turn thrusting off...), and only do about the same damage as other weapons when you do beat all the odds and land a hit.

So basically what I'm saying is, with all of these downsides what is even their purpose? You can say, "Oh well they're good if you get good with them"... Ok, but other weapons are easier to get good with, and if you get good with hammers what is your reward? You're still going to be lesser than sword/pole/spear users for all intents and purposes, with the slower attack speed reach & inevitable handle-hits.

Been trying to like this weapon, but I'm starting to feel it is just trash tier and has no purpose. Why did SV even include them? Same with axes, but at least with axes you can get pole-axes; hammers are literally a waste of skill points.


The ONLY silver lining I can find for hammers is that mid-tier resources are comparatively a bit better on hammers than bladed weapons... But that's a stretch because nobody is going to want to be using mid-tier resources for anything meaningful anyway. It's pretty irrelevant all things considered... unless you want to invest 100 points to have a cheap PvE weapon...

Is this weapon a complete waste of skill points? Is there any weapon in Nave as useless as the hammer? Thoughts?

You have never fought someone who is good with a single handed mace... I have seen them hit through steel with messing or cuprum star maces for 40+. Given the cheapness and durability of those weapons and even the effectiveness of the incisium versions still hit HARD.

 

[Kaquenqos]

You have never fought someone who is good with a single handed mace... I have seen them hit through steel with messing or cuprum star maces for 40+. Given the cheapness and durability of those weapons and even the effectiveness of the incisium versions still hit HARD.

So you're saying 1h mace is better than 2h mace? Seems to be against the general consensus for other weapons, but I did find 1h hitboxes a bit better than 2h, and at least they aren't as slow.

Maybe I'll give 1h + shield a try again before deleveling

 

[Exiledkhallisi]

60 dmg wieldable 1h Skadite hammer...


Just let that sink in.

People are sleeping on hammers.

 

[Raknor]

60 dmg wieldable 1h Skadite hammer...


Just let that sink in.

People are sleeping on hammers.

Yeah, and all the reach of a short dagger but now with handle hits ... but hey, if you want to buy some i have them

 

[Kaquenqos]

60 dmg wieldable 1h Skadite hammer...


Just let that sink in.

People are sleeping on hammers.

What will you do with your other hand, though? Jerk off in masochistic bliss at all the misses, handle-hits & parries...?


Seriously though, hammer/club whatever, hit-boxes are indefensible. Even if they did 30-50% more damage than swords, which they don't, they would still lose out, especially in PvP, where anyone of mild competence can completely avoid being hit more than once or twice...

I guess they can be useful in group pvp if the enemy is not paying attention to you, or in the 1/1000000 dismounting shot lol

 

[Exiledkhallisi]

What will you do with your other hand, though? Jerk off in masochistic bliss at all the misses, handle-hits & parries...?


Seriously though, hammer/club whatever, hit-boxes are indefensible. Even if they did 30-50% more damage than swords, which they don't, they would still lose out, especially in PvP, where anyone of mild competence can completely avoid being hit more than once or twice...

I guess they can be useful in group pvp if the enemy is not paying attention to you, or in the 1/1000000 dismounting shot lol

Handle hits with a 1h? Lol... with 60dmg blunt.. i only need to hit you 2-3 times. 1 time if you are wearing leas than plate.

 

[Kaquenqos]

Handle hits with a 1h? Lol... with 60dmg blunt.. i only need to hit you 2-3 times. 1 time if you are wearing leas than plate.

dude the swing speed & hit boxes are still shit 1h, I've used them. Don't gimme that nonsense

 

[Kaemik]

Go duel Dagasi in MK. She exclusively uses hammers and is considered a very powerful combatant in both team fights and 1v1s despite her west coast ping. I won't speak to all the reasons she swears by hammers unless she wants to divulge that information but there are numerous good reasons.

Hammers are WAY easier to handle hit with though. Personally, as a self-admitted trash melee, I always use swords or spears/polearms because they are WAY easier to fight with IMO. I'd never dream of using an axe or hammer. But people who can and get good with them wreck hard.

 

[Raknor]

Handle hits with a 1h? Lol... with 60dmg blunt.. i only need to hit you 2-3 times. 1 time if you are wearing leas than plate.

You say you only need to hit 2-3 times like it was easy. I mean sure, in a group fight that is actually very handy.

In a small skirmish? The speed of a 1h skadite hammer plus the 1h animations themselves just makes parry so easy for anyone that can fog a mirror (I mean... even I can do it and I ain't no 1337 kid) that hitting 2-3 times for full damage is actually a tall ask.

 

[Kaemik]

You say you only need to hit 2-3 times like it was easy. I mean sure, in a group fight that is actually very handy.

In a small skirmish? The speed of a 1h skadite hammer plus the 1h animations themselves just makes parry so easy for anyone that can fog a mirror (I mean... even I can do it and I ain't no 1337 kid) that hitting 2-3 times for full damage is actually a tall ask.

Yeah. There are dueling hammers but they definitely aren't the same hammers you want if you're going for max damage per hit.