A Community Exercise for Theorycrafters

Kaemik

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So imagine instead of expecting newbs to understand what races are good at when they make their character, or reroll a character they may (and should) have some level attachment to once they discover it's unviable at the build they want to play. The game gave you some tooltips on race creation to give you a general indicator of what a race is good at.

It breaks down some major archetypal roles and tells you everything a race can be expected to do well. Here's a list of roles that are a bit more flavorful than standard community terms, and will likely make more sense to a newb.

Warrior - A melee-focused combatant. Some warriors also can use a bow to decent effect. (Currently known in the community as foot-fighter)
Mage - A magic-focused combatant.
Skirmisher - A high-speed warrior-esque build. Some skirmishers are just lighter/faster melee-focused builds while others have a greater focus on archery.
Battlemage - A warrioresque build that also employs magic or magical build that is competent in melee (What the community currently calls hybrids)
Arcane Skirmisher - A light warrior or archer that also employs magic.
Beastmaster - A warrior or skirmishers that can control pets.
Dominator - A build that contains both magic and dominated minons.

Plus:

Mounted Warrior, Mounted Mage, Mounted Skirmisher, Mounted Battlemage, Mounted Arcane Skirmisher, Mounted Beastmaster, Mounted Dominator (I'm sure you can figure out what those are)

Now make a list of "Strong Builds" and "Viable Builds". For each race. "Strong" meaning a reasonable argument can be made they are not objectively weaker than any other race at that build. Viable means it's hard to reasonably argue they are the best-in-class, but a skilled player wouldn't feel at TOO heavy of a disadvantage for that race.

You can do this one of two ways. Either list the roles with the strong and viable builds underneath, or list the races with their strong and viable builds. This is obviously a huge amount of theory-crafting so you can post partial lists and stuff. But be prepared to defend your choices if someone questions why you listed a certain race as strong/viable or disagree that one is.
 
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Kaemik

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*Reserved for my personal list*

Going to start with my abbreviated list

WARRIOR
Strong: Thursar/Kallard and Pure Kallard
Viable: Thursar/Anything and Ohgmir*

*Ohgmir are arguably best in class at 1v1s and PVE but fall a bit behind in other contexts due to speed IMO

MAGE
Strong: Sheevra
Viable: Veela, Sidoian, Tindremene?, Ohgmir*

Ohgmir are really strong against, except their speed is still too low IMO. Sidoian and Tind made the list for the same reason. Decent int, not great dex. Sheevra on the other hand has near maximum movespeed, only really being outpaced by Veela on foot, while also have decent Int and Con. And it has the same stat cap as a Tindremene or Sarduucan. Clearly the best footmage in the current lineup IMO.

SKIRMISHER
Strong: Veela
Viable: Sheevra

Veela are the absolute fastest race and their draw weight bonus is huge if you'll be using a bow. Sheevra are nearly as good but just a cheap knock-off. Given highest dex, +4 movespeed, and alvarin warcry, I think it's hard to argue there is a worthwhile non-veela skirmishers build but feel free to prove me wrong. Plus all alvarin get a good attribute pool. Veela is nearly maxed while Sheevra is.

MOUNTED MAGE
Strong: Heurgar, Sidoian
Viable: Blainn

Heurgar has the best stats, hands down and is less vulnerable to enemy archers. Sidoain has worse stats but strong arguments can be made that their still good stats and clade bonuses make up for it. Blainn have all the strengths of a Heurgar but slightly worse stats. A B/B/H/H fat mage would be imperceptibly worse than Full H if you really love the Blainn style.

MOUNTED SKIRMISHER:
Strong: Kallard, Thursar/Kallard*
Viable: Veela, Heurgar

If you care about melee damage on the build, Thur/Kall is hands down the best overall stats. However we don't know what if any mounts Thursars will be able to ride. so this could knock them off the list entirely. Kallard comes in at a fairly close second to Thur/Kal meanining they're absolutely better if Thur/Kal is meaningfully limited on mount options.

Veela is included because it's weak spot chance will likely be useful against armored targets with a bow but it's only viable because it's mounted melee capabilities are trash. Same with Heurgar. It has the highest potential draw strength for bows but suffers notably on damage bonus from the lower size. It's also worth noting that Since Kallard and Thur/Kal are top-tier warrior builds they're going to be more dangerous if their mount is killed. If anything I feel I'm being overly generous to allow those two races to be considered viable. Either is better as a mounted arcane scirm.

MOUNTED ARCANE SKIRMISHER

Strong: Heurgar
Viable: Alvarins?

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Enough said. Alvarins are somewhat of a contender when you consider their higher draw strength but that stat block is a work of freaking art when Str, Con, and Int are the stats you care about.
 
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Rhias

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I get the idea behind a Skirmisher. But what's a mounted Skirmisher? All mounteds are equally fast. So wouldn't that make any mounted to a mounted Skirmisher?

Ragarding Warrior. I think Oghmir are somewhat equal to Thur/Kall, but not offensive, but deffensive.
Because:
- They get bonus to resistance.
- They get bonus to armor weight.
- They got a smaller hitbox so shields cover more (since the shield does not scale in size for a smaller character).
 

Kaemik

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Mounted Skirmisher = Pure Mounted Archer or MA + Melee.

It's divided from the idea of Mounted Arcane Skirmisher by the fact the arcane skirmisher is ranged and magic.

Mounted Warrior would be an all melee build or a very light dip into archery. There are definitely ways to fill your points as a pure melee mounted build if you also want to be a fairly viable foot fighter.

Archers really didn't get their own class in anything because they are a low enough point investment that archer builds are generally archery AND ______. But to claim mounted skirmishers status I would expect a build take most of the available primaries relevant to mounted archery in addition to a melee secondary as opposed to a magic or taming secondary. I suppose a mounted-skirmishers could also be someone who goes full archer and takes all the rest of their primaries as movements so they can continue playing archer if their mount dies... but I'm slightly skeptical such a build would be good. If it is, then Veela would deserve a strong rating as that's the clear race pick for such a build.

That's why you see skirmishers (archery+melee or light melee), arcane skirmishers (archery+magic), beastmaster (archery or melee + creature control) and the mounted variants of those things but no archer.
 
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Kaemik

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Sidenote I fully expect some of these builds to get crossed off the list as viable builds in general depending on how mounted combat, magic, and taming are handled in MO2. I have doubts about the viability of several of them, but for now I'm going under the assumption they are all viable.
 

Rhias

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Mounted Skirmisher = Pure Mounted Archer or MA + Melee.

It's divided from the idea of Mounted Arcane Skirmisher by the fact the arcane skirmisher is ranged and magic.

Mounted Warrior would be an all melee build or a very light dip into archery. There are definitely ways to fill your points as a pure melee mounted build if you also want to be a fairly viable foot fighter.

Archers really didn't get their own class in anything because they are a low enough point investment that archer builds are generally archery AND ______. But to claim mounted skirmishers status I would expect a build take most of the available primaries relevant to mounted archery in addition to a melee secondary as opposed to a magic or taming secondary. I suppose a mounted-skirmishers could also be someone who goes full archer and takes all the rest of their primaries as movements so they can continue playing archer if their mount dies... but I'm slightly skeptical such a build would be good. If it is, then Veela would deserve a strong rating as that's the clear race pick for such a build.

That's why you see skirmishers (archery+melee or light melee), arcane skirmishers (archery+magic), beastmaster (archery or melee + creature control) and the mounted variants of those things but no archer.
In my opinion full mounted archer is a build itself. And I disagree that they have low point investment.
Archery, Mounted Archery, Aiming Technique, Marksmanship. That are 400 primary points only for the bow (unless they changed something in MO2?).
An Axe MC has how many points for the weapon?
300? Axe, Offensive Stance and Mounted Combat?
 
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Kaemik

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So I believe it's been confirmed at this point we are working with 1200 primary points in MO2.

Character Info Sheets - Google Sheets

You can copy that and play around with it. It's not fully accurate as I made it a month or two ago but you should be able to create a rough mounted archer build. That even with every MA relevant skill maxed has quite a few left over. The presumption there is that you're either going to dip into melee, magic, or taming with the remaining points.

A Mounted Warrior is a fairly unlikely build as well but the presumption with one there would be that they take MC relevant skills and then also some foot-fighter stuff so that their archery is either not there or pretty weak (Like 100 points in archery and MA or something). Also it's at least claimed that weapon weight will have penalties to MC in MO2.

Based on that I imagine a mounted warrior build may take lances and the relevant MC skills along with swords or spears or something and the relevant skills to support that such as athletics and combat technique.

If you believe mounted skirmisher will be MUCH more common than mounted warrior... I agree. I just wanted to leave it in there as a potential option.
 
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Rhias

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Nice calculator.
Actually a classical MO1 MA build would look something like this:

Archery
Controlled Aiming
Mounted Archery
Aiming Technique
Marksmanship
Creature Control
Advanced Creature Control
Defensive Stance
Controlled Riding
Sprinting
Combat Maneuvering
Armor Training
Heavy Armor Training
 

Kaemik

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Huh. It actually takes advanced CC to control a good mount?
 

Rhias

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Huh. It actually takes advanced CC to control a good mount?
Depends...
You need it for Arctic & Stalker Lyks. They got high defense values, and it was basically impossible to dismount them with blunt weapons.
But you can't use melee weapons decently on them, because the hitbox is too big.
 
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We don't know the actual gameplay impact of nation relations yet, so Thursar might also be less interesting for people who plan on staying blue to participate in npc empire stuff.
 
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Necromantic

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MO actually had templates early on, you could pick one and start with some starting equipment and skills, similar to what UO had back in the days. I'm not sure I'd agree to expanding it to races. People should be able to fuck up anyway. They just need more basic info early on.

Also, it's Huergar not Heurgar. :p