Why Making Dungeons Wilderness is a TERRIBLE Idea

[Sally]

The concept of making dungeons wilderness is too complex an idea for most players to fully grasp the full consequences of; and so is not one you can put in the hands of the low IQ masses (no offense, but i've seen many the takes presented here).

I keep telling SV to stop with these votes, because the people playing this game cannot think more than a few steps ahead; and have a bias for supporting what benefits them personally in the game.

Why is making dungeons Wilderness a TERRIBLE idea?

If there is less punishment for killing someone in a dungeon, the odds of dungeons becoming a kill-fest go up.

Why is this boring and badly designed?

Because it increases certainty. It increases predictability.

Too much predictability = boredom. No tension, an emotionally flat experience; that also limits opportunity.

If i know every person i see in a dungeon is 99% going to attack me; or if i know that someone leaving a dungeon has the potential to be carrying something valuable; this is pretty much always going to result in a hostile encounter.

The tension is broken. There is no moment of thinking "Is this person going to attack me?" Or... "Can i trick this person into siding with me and kill them later?" Or.. "Can i ally with this person?".. All of these little nuances will be LOST if you do not have disincentives.

It is about BALANCE.

Make PVP too punishing in dungeons? Nobody attacks eachother; and this results in boredom.

Make PVP not at all punishing? Everyone always engages in PVP, all tension is lost, and it becomes more boring.

The most exciting scenario is where people have to weigh up the benefits of their actions...

You create INTERNAL CONFLICT (two wants that are at odds with eachother within an individual players); and in turn, you create a more tense and exciting environment for all involved.

The answer to this problem is BALANCE.. Not too far one way or the other, you must balance it.

If there is anything you SHOULD be thinking about, it is about tweaking rep loss in relation to how it impacts this balance.

 

[ElPerro]

Dungeons should be pvp hot spots, not a place to sing kumbaya with your blue friends. You can try that at bandit camps near towns

 

[Emdash]

Yea, I prefer flagless game play. I have never found a game that did it right.

It's kind of like... haha... I was watching Alex Jones argue with Piers Morgan about gun control, and PM was saying that gun violence was down in England, but AJ said yeah but there is MORE CRIME. I think that is a balance they have not gotten right. People will find a way to grief it if you can't just kill. I still haven't encountered many places where people are just gonna KoS regardless except for some crazy dungeons and Jungle Camp.

It's cool to kind of ease your way into a spot. We can argue about what the function of a dungeon is and why new players are baited into going to them, but in regards to how you are able to access it... nah. I think it's right. You need to use diplomacy or stealth or both. They just need to get rid of a lot of the OTHER zerg bonuses because zergs can lock down areas, dungeons especially.

Again, it would be nice if they were designed better and had more types of things you could profit from, but the world needs more wilderness, not less.

Sally join ETERNAL, I will show you some shit about how people behave.

 

[Sally]

Dungeons should be pvp hot spots, not a place to sing kumbaya with your blue friends. You can try that at bandit camps near towns

Okay, i assume you're not arguing against my post, because i quite specifically did not say that.

 

[Sally]

Yea, I prefer flagless game play. I have never found a game that did it right.

It's kind of like... haha... I was watching Alex Jones argue with Piers Morgan about gun control, and PM was saying that gun violence was down in England, but AJ said yeah but there is MORE CRIME. I think that is a balance they have not gotten right. People will find a way to grief it if you can't just kill. I still haven't encountered many places where people are just gonna KoS regardless except for some crazy dungeons and Jungle Camp.

It's cool to kind of ease your way into a spot. We can argue about what the function of a dungeon is and why new players are baited into going to them, but in regards to how you are able to access it... nah. I think it's right. You need to use diplomacy or stealth or both. They just need to get rid of a lot of the OTHER zerg bonuses because zergs can lock down areas, dungeons especially.

Again, it would be nice if they were designed better and had more types of things you could profit from, but the world needs more wilderness, not less.

Sally join ETERNAL, I will show you some shit about how people behave.

The solution is to rebalance rep loss.

Too far one way or the other results in one dimensional gameplay.

 

[Emdash]

The solution is to rebalance rep loss.

Too far one way or the other results in one dimensional gameplay.

So you don't want wilderness anywhere?

Unpack it a bit. Why dungeons? There should be reasons to go to dungeons, but it should not be the end all of loot because zergs will just camp it. I dunno if it would matter. I mean, were people getting killed less before the wilderness change?

I think the solution is to add in more ways to interact and reap benefits. If your only benefit comes from a lootbag, you are gonna kill everyone. There should def be places where it is brutal, though.

 

[Sally]

So you don't want wilderness anywhere?

Unpack it a bit. Why dungeons? There should be reasons to go to dungeons, but it should not be the end all of loot because zergs will just camp it. I dunno if it would matter. I mean, were people getting killed less before the wilderness change?

I think the solution is to add in more ways to interact and reap benefits. If your only benefit comes from a lootbag, you are gonna kill everyone. There should def be places where it is brutal, though.

I want wilderness to be in areas of the map; yes. If something is in the tindremic provinces, it doesn't make sense that a dungeon would just allow people to murder eachother.

If they want to make dungeons in wilderness zones be wilderness, that is fine. But to have all dungeons wilderness causes the issues i mentioned in the original post: A one dimensional experience.

The reason they're even thinking about this change, is because they over-corrected with the rep changes.

They were too heavy handed with rep changes, and now they're stuck between wanting to protect people from murder, but also allow PVP.

The solution is to just readjust the rep system.

 

[Emdash]

I want wilderness to be in areas of the map; yes. If something is in the tindremic provinces, it doesn't make sense that a dungeon would just allow people to murder eachother.

If they want to make dungeons in wilderness zones be wilderness, that is fine. But to have all dungeons wilderness causes the issues i mentioned in the original post: A one dimensional experience.

The reason they're even thinking about this change, is because they over-corrected with the rep changes.

They were too heavy handed with rep changes, and now they're stuck between wanting to protect people from murder, but also allow PVP.

The solution is to just readjust the rep system.

I dono, man. I feel like... the game is dysfunctional in some way. There are 800 people on now, but there are so many high value spots that are not contested. When people get out in the world, they can adjust things, as it is... I feel like I would prefer to have some people trying to kill everyone. Seeing a person is exciting.

Edit: I just don't see how an action you take in a dungeon or in the wild should affect how you are treated in town by NPCs.

 

[Sally]

I dono, man. I feel like... the game is dysfunctional in some way. There are 800 people on now, but there are so many high value spots that are not contested. When people get out in the world, they can adjust things, as it is... I feel like I would prefer to have some people trying to kill everyone. Seeing a person is exciting.

Edit: I just don't see how an action you take in a dungeon or in the wild should affect how you are treated in town by NPCs.

A) Because it makes no sense in relation to the world cohesion (why would a dungeon in the tindrem province suddenly be wilderness?)
B) Because, again, it diminishes the dimension of encounters.

Too strict? No PVP.
Too Unrestricted? Always PVP.
In the middle? Dynamism, interest, tension

 

[Jackdstripper]

I disagree. Dungeons are a very lucrative spots, as such they should be very dangerous. Risk vs reward. They should be pvp hotspots, AND they shouldn’t be so easy to solo. You should need a group to farm dungeons. Dont even get me started on soloing bosses.

Anything that encourages pvpers to not sit outside of towns its a good thing. Take outposts for examples. They have been a great addition to the game as now days they are the focal point in majority of mid to large pvp battles. While not perfect, they have been successful in providing a pvp focused content that people actually want to partake into.

This is a pvp game after all. There needs to be places where people can freely pvp. Lawless zones are good, outposts are good and dangeons should also be added to that list.

 

[Sally]

I disagree. Dungeons are a very lucrative spots, as such they should be very dangerous. Risk vs reward. They should be pvp hotspots, AND they shouldn’t be so easy to solo. You should need a group to farm dungeons. Dont even get me started on soloing bosses.

Anything that encourages pvpers to not sit outside of towns its a good thing. Take outposts for examples. They have been a great addition to the game as now days they are the focal point in majority of mid to large pvp battles. While not perfect, they have been successful in providing a pvp focused content that people actually want to partake into.

This is a pvp game after all. There needs to be places where people can freely pvp. Lawless zones are good, outposts are good and dangeons should also be added to that list.

They are very dangerous; what they should not be is predictable.

Do you not understand that there is danger in the unpredictability? It is actually safer by making it wilderness, because now it requires only one dimension of thinking.

It should always be balanced, the most interesting part of the game, that causes the most internal conflict for the players IS the rep system. They were sloppy with the rep changes, and they really need to go back and readjust.

 

[ElPerro]

They are very dangerous; what they should not be is predictable.

Do you not understand that there is danger in the unpredictability? It is actually safer by making it wilderness, because now it requires only one dimension of thinking.

It should always be balanced, the most interesting part of the game, that causes the most internal conflict for the players IS the rep system. They were sloppy with the rep changes, and they really need to go back and readjust.

We can all agree that rep in its current is ass. They are also increasing prom upkeep by alot this new patch, so you wont even be able to have a red priest unless ur grinding all day or ur in a zerg guild