Vote For Mount Changes.

Should the Devs make Dismounting Ranged Weapons, Buff Foot Fighters and Nerf Mounts?

  • YES Make Ranged Dismount Weapons and Buff Foot Fighters and Nerf Mounts.

    Votes: 10 40.0%
  • NO Nothing Needs Changed, Mounts with No counterplay is just fine.

    Votes: 15 60.0%

  • Total voters
    25

PoisonArrows

Active member
Aug 7, 2020
637
200
43
If you aren't Mounted you are screwed, you can't reliably Defeat the enemy on foot, because you can't reliably expect the enemy to be dumb enough to let you walk up with a Hammer or Axe to dismount them. You can't Out trade them with Arrows because they can run away, Heal and come back. (Almost All of them are Tribrids that can do everything in game on horse) Foot Fighters are at a Huge disadvantage with no reliable way to fight back, because we can't dismount, we need a Ranged dismounting option otherwise every other scenario one can think of is hypothetical nonsense. There's no Pet or Weaponry or spell that can solve any of the dismounting issues. This Poll is designed to show the Devs we want changes for Mounts and Buffs for Foot Fighters.
 

Piet

Active member
May 28, 2020
351
219
43
They just don't have the dismount animation in yet. Usually it would take 5-10 seconds for a mounted to get back up to their feet then have to run to their mount and try to mount in mo1 and they mentioned considering making the horse run away as well for mo2. Also everything that should dismount doesn't yet at the moment.
 

ArcaneConsular

Active member
Oct 27, 2021
313
201
43
Idk I think attacking while mounted should make you easier to dismount. But I wouldn't want them to make dismounting too easy because then you'd just have people easily dismounting you while you're just traveling which would just encourage people to camp roads with four friends and gangbang you
 

ArcaneConsular

Active member
Oct 27, 2021
313
201
43
I think at some point people have to accept that MO isn't a fair and balanced pvp game. Can be 3v1. A warrior vs a solo mage. A tamer vs someone on a horse. A warrior vs a horse archer. I mean you can't balance every situation. Doesn't mean it's not fun but you cant take it as like some matter of pride and take it personally. Sometimes you're just in the wrong place at the wrong time
 

PuckInmortali

Member
Nov 8, 2021
44
45
18
I am okay with the mounted character having the advantage, just so long as the terrain is favorable for a horse. It makes sense. It's like if someone who is primarily a fast moving archer gets into melee with a well armored foot fighter. The advantage goes to the foot fighter (again, this makes sense). I am very leery in general for calls for balance between different modes of play. Some options work well in the field, others in a dungeon, and still others from rocky hills. I, for one, think it is better like that.
 

Najwalaylah

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
700
662
93
37.76655478735988, -122.48572468757628
easily dismounting you while you're just traveling which would just encourage people to camp roads with four friends and gangbang you
I don't know:
  • We already have people killing everyone they see (one reason given: frustration, but the frustrated aren't the only ones).
  • People also already have the ability to camp roads; I think the emphasis on transportation that Henrik has talked about encourages that already; and, possibly, the main reason that more people have not camped roads is a lack of patience & a lack of the inclination to sit still at a bottleneck, or patrol the roads (possibly related to a low number of travellers on the roads, as well).
 

Kaemik

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2020
1,329
939
113
There is a unit in the more recent civs added to Age of Empires 2 that completely sums up the issue with MAs right now (Because MCs are not overpowered in any way at this moment).

The Konnik is a unit that starts as a cavalry unit, and when it "dies" it is transformed into an infantry unit. That's one of the biggest issues with how MA's currently work. All you need to convert foot fighter (which should already have 100 archery) to an MA, is 100 Controlled Riding, 100 Mounted Archery, 26 Creature Control. It turns MAs into a two phase bossfight with them becoming formidable FFs the moment their mount goes down.

That means for 226 points (Minus attribute / clade bonuses) you can make a foot fighter into a damn near fully proficient MA. Because lets be real, you don't need those 300 points of additional archery skills to be 99% effective at archery. If they actually needed to spec 400 points archery to really be fully viable with a bow they would have to make some big sacrifices though.

And that's where I would address the entire issue. The archery tree is not well set up, and fixing archery could help the issue massively.

1. MAs and Footarchers get way too MUCH value for 100 points into the archery tree.
2. MAs and Footarchers get way too LITTLE value for 400 points into the archery tree.
3. Longbows are not as strong as they should be as the only bow that can't be used while mounted.

Fix those three things and I think the MA issue would largely be addressed once some other root causes like troop transportation are handled. Basically, buff a 400 point archer build, nerf a 100 point archer build, and increase the power of longbowmen above all other bow types if you full spec archery.
 
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Tzone

Well-known member
May 16, 2021
1,212
656
113
Its sad that 13 people said it was fine. I dont think that nerfing mounts is the needed change but damn there are a bunch of trash players wanting that mounted crutch.
 

Kaemik

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2020
1,329
939
113
Its sad that 13 people said it was fine. I dont think that nerfing mounts is the needed change but damn there are a bunch of trash players wanting that mounted crutch.
I think the issue is that the poll is set up to force people to agree with all 3 of his suggested changes or change nothing. I don't think 13 people really believe NOTHING should change. But they don't agree with all his suggestions.
 

Tzone

Well-known member
May 16, 2021
1,212
656
113
I think the issue is that the poll is set up to force people to agree with all 3 of his suggested changes or change nothing. I don't think 13 people really believe NOTHING should change. But they don't agree with all his suggestions.
poll was rigged yeah
 

Rhias

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
844
1,014
93
There should be more options to counter mounteds.
But I don't think that there should be ranged dismount weapons.
 

SilentPony

Member
Nov 27, 2021
79
49
18
I think balancing things from more or less 'realistic' perspective is fine in this case. Mounted troops should not have trouble getting away from, harassing or killing foot soldiers in a clear field. On the other hand, foot soldiers should not be vulnerable to mounts in a tight group. I don't think they are currently, since longbows outperform other bows and killing a horse (which is a big target) is enough for them to gain an advantage. And some terrain is bad for horses. But maybe there should be more objectives that make sense to hold with infantry, otherwise what's the point of having it in the first place.
 

Tzone

Well-known member
May 16, 2021
1,212
656
113
There should be more options to counter mounteds.
But I don't think that there should be ranged dismount weapons.
Long bows were the OG dismount weapons but if its as simple as landing one head shot to dismount thats too easy. If it was land consecutive head shots with a long bow I think that would be ok.
 

Kaemik

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2020
1,329
939
113
There should be more options to counter mounteds.
But I don't think that there should be ranged dismount weapons.
A ranged dismount would completely destroy all mountbound builds, yeah. Historically polearms or deployable barriers were employed to counter mounted charges and foot archers were used to counter mounted archers.

Nothing needs to be used to counter MCs. They lay down some big hits but overall their DPS is so low it puts your team down a man if you aren't mixing it with MA for real DPS. Parry a thrust and all their damage is gone. They're a joke.

But footarchers need a buff to counter MAs. And they need to be buffed in a way that doesn't buff MAs. It's real simple IMO. Archers need to finally be made a viable main role. If you gimp yourself as a foot fighter by going 400 points archery you should get some serious damage. And that damage should be skewed to favor foot archers.
 

Tzone

Well-known member
May 16, 2021
1,212
656
113
A ranged dismount would completely destroy all mountbound builds, yeah. Historically polearms or deployable barriers were employed to counter mounted charges and foot archers were used to counter mounted archers.

Nothing needs to be used to counter MCs. They lay down some big hits but overall their DPS is so low it puts your team down a man if you aren't mixing it with MA for real DPS. Parry a thrust and all their damage is gone. They're a joke.

But footarchers need a buff to counter MCs. And they need to be buffed in a way that doesn't buff MAs. It's real simple IMO. Archers need to finally be made a viable main role. If you gimp yourself as a foot fighter by going 400 points archery you should get some serious damage. And that damage should be skewed to favor foot archers.
Long bows were a great historic counter. It made the french knights dismount and walk 500 yards through arrows.

Im 100% not down for realism if its bad for gameplay.

Maybe if they said marksmenship helps you dismount somehow in a skill based way it would be ok.

MC hits for like half damage against steel. Its just too high in the burst damage department.
 

Kaemik

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2020
1,329
939
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Higher DPS at higher range to a meaningful degree. It negates the need for a dismount. But if you give that to everyone with 100 points in archery then it will more than counter MAs. It will end their viability as a role completely.

I think the largest hit I ever landed with a lance on a player was like 79 on someone's naked arm. In the time it would take me to get off another hit on the same target they could easily heal it. There are footfighter builds that hit considerably harder and do so every couple seconds.

The only way to keep MC's from putting your team down a man is to mix in magic or archery so you can actually keep up some real DPS. No counter needed. That being said, I'd far prefer them to be in a state where they are worth countering. The best way to do that IMO would be to make trample a way to deal a lot of small to medium hits to a lot of players. That way they have a separate role from other existing roles.
 

Fargus

Member
Oct 17, 2021
45
35
18
If you want foot archers or non mounted builds to better counter MA's i think that a good starting point to look at is the weak spot mechanic itself.

Right now weakspot is an rng fest and in a game based on pvp rng isn't really great game design. It doesn't feel great when you are trying to use it to your advantage and it never goes off and never feels good when you are on the receiving end and it chunks you for a good majority of your health.

If you rework weak spot to be a percentage of your base damage done by piercing weapons to penetration scaling off dexterity, something similar to damage bonus for strength, like .5 or 1% for every 10 points in dex it'll go a long way for helping foot builds. Mounteds will be forced to make a meaningful sacrifice when they dump dex for their wheelchair, and footbuilds will be able to reliably do damage to heavier and heavier horse armors, being considered and actually threat.