Taming and Animal Care (As they are now) Should be Crafting Skills

Kaemik

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I'll bet you 10k ohgmium when the game goes live that whatever number is final will be within 200 points of 1100 for each tree. And for the point that I made, that we will have to consider our skill choices carefully that will hold true to some degree until like 2500+. Much less 1300 tops. If I had 2500 points I'd still leave taming out of my mounted melee/mage/dominator that can fight on foot with a 2h or horseback with a lance. Being able to be a full mage/full melee with a pet that's still effective when they get knocked from their mount is more valuable than access to something I can bypass with gold. XD
 
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Vagrant

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Henrik said in Discord some time ago that there will be more points, and other changes so "you could be a fully fledged crafter in a specific field, but also a fully fledged warrior for instance in a field"
So that's definitely a thing along with the 1 char slot.
 

Hooves

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Henrik said in Discord some time ago that there will be more points, and other changes so "you could be a fully fledged crafter in a specific field, but also a fully fledged warrior for instance in a field"
So that's definitely a thing along with the 1 char slot.
That's fantastic - hope it actually happens.
 

Kaemik

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"Fully-fledged in a specific field" implies a butcher will have enough points that they won't have to give up most their zoologies to take full relevant lores but it still constitutes we'll need to make meaningful choices about what gets into our build. Like anyone concerned ____ means "everyone will do everything" really needs to go play around with potential builds in the current L menu. There is no semi-reasonable point total at which I get everything I want for either line.
 

Eldrath

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the Jungle. Meditating on things to come.
I have brought this up many times in Discord with an unsatisfactory response from Henrik.

While taming is certainly harder to argue than say, weapon crafting, the one-character set up changes things

Because resource aquisition will change. If I live in Meduli and want to do the Risar dungeon I might want to be able to craft my own swords/armor/potions in Morin Khur. In this sense taming in the profession tree will be in competition with other skills. Do I want to be able to get my own pet, or my own steel armor? It also makes sense since the lore (zoology) used is under the profession tree as well. If taming truly was an combat skill then zoology should be one too.

With all the changes done recently taming itself could also just go the way of mining and woodchopping and be a free skill for everyone to have. Those who want to spezialise can take up zoology lores and CC, adv. CC, BM etc.

I am very worried that SV is going down the path of balancing playstyles with skillpoints rather than with well thought out mechanics. Henrik talking about a pet bear that can stun other players on stream showed just how little they have learned. Cause the argument for that will be "well the player invested X hours and 800 skillpoints, so he should get an I-win-buttom."

Or maybe I am too pessimistic. Doubt it though.
 

ElPerro

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I have brought this up many times in Discord with an unsatisfactory response from Henrik.

While taming is certainly harder to argue than say, weapon crafting, the one-character set up changes things

Because resource aquisition will change. If I live in Meduli and want to do the Risar dungeon I might want to be able to craft my own swords/armor/potions in Morin Khur. In this sense taming in the profession tree will be in competition with other skills. Do I want to be able to get my own pet, or my own steel armor? It also makes sense since the lore (zoology) used is under the profession tree as well. If taming truly was an combat skill then zoology should be one too.

With all the changes done recently taming itself could also just go the way of mining and woodchopping and be a free skill for everyone to have. Those who want to spezialise can take up zoology lores and CC, adv. CC, BM etc.

I am very worried that SV is going down the path of balancing playstyles with skillpoints rather than with well thought out mechanics. Henrik talking about a pet bear that can stun other players on stream showed just how little they have learned. Cause the argument for that will be "well the player invested X hours and 800 skillpoints, so he should get an I-win-buttom."

Or maybe I am too pessimistic. Doubt it though.
Wow did he really say they were gonna add a pet with a stun? I really hope he was just kidding...

As for taming, I wouldnt mind if it becomes a secondary tbh, just make lores really count so you could only get a low level pet with even 100 taming. With the size of the map being 6x of MO1, it would be awesome if we could at least tame a low level horse from anywhere to move around. Tamers would still offer higher level mounts and the convenience of not having to walk from town to a spawn.
 

Teknique

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Wow did he really say they were gonna add a pet with a stun? I really hope he was just kidding...

As for taming, I wouldnt mind if it becomes a secondary tbh, just make lores really count so you could only get a low level pet with even 100 taming. With the size of the map being 6x of MO1, it would be awesome if we could at least tame a low level horse from anywhere to move around. Tamers would still offer higher level mounts and the convenience of not having to walk from town to a spawn.
You can get the lore as a crafting skill, you can tame a horse with not much taming skill therefore.
 
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Necromantic

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Necromancy should be a profession, I craft my own horses and monsters out of materials I gathered and all the other skills I need for it under Zoology are Professions too. :p
Same could go for all the other spell craft that I use to manufacture spells.
 
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Dayde

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I agree with Kaemik, Taming and Animal Care should be professional skills. That would mean Domestication (secondary anyway) should be in both places so that the tree still makes sense. Taming is not a requirement for anything, so it doesn't upset the action skills by moving it over.

Taming alone does not give you a meaningful advantage in combat. Necromancy of course does, as does magic in general. I do agree that categorizing the MO1 skills into two trees is not an easy shuffle and can very easily break the game or allow unexpected exploitation if not done 100% right. I am surprised the timeline to release looks to be so close and yet we aren't able to experiment with skills to see what SV has envisioned (outside of seeing they put X skills under professional).

Since you mention a stunning bear as a pet.. I hope they add stamina drain and other player-type mechanics to all pets (and not the ability to stun).
 
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Necromantic

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As shown by Fishing not working right, they can't handle skills in both plans. :p Their split doesn't even work properly at the moment.

This time all creatures in the world should have individual stats not just the mounts which in MO were handled as a special type of NPC. And their stats should affect all they do, including their mana and stamina usage. No more infinite mana NPC mages like most games have them etc. #
No more differentiation between mounts and other creatures would allow for more variety and the old concept of riding all creatures that could potentially be rideable.

I was obviously joking about magic. And if you really want to look at it that way, yes taming alone does give you an advantage in combat even if it were just a meat bag in front of you.
It's really pointless to argue these things anyway, because nothing is just black and white and there are more things that could be both. Heck some magic schools could probably even be considered a profession depending on what their spells do.
 
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Dayde

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I totally agree.. it is kind of pointless to argue the point when nothing is black and white here. Having a third mixed bag tree could fix some of that, but I get why they would want to resist doing that.. probably mostly in their attempt to not put extra complexity on new players. I could see they would need to change the UI completely to make it easier to find skills (rather than requiring a player to know where a skill would fit).

Yeah, I know you were joking, but to your point no matter what SV does with the current skill system, they do need to draw that line somewhere. For me, that line is putting taming in professional skills.
 

Kaemik

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Necromancy should be a profession, I craft my own horses and monsters out of materials I gathered and all the other skills I need for it under Zoology are Professions too. :p
Same could go for all the other spell craft that I use to manufacture spells.

So I've pointed out multiple times domination belongs in action points because it yields pets that give an advantage during combat and cannot be traded. And I contrast that to taming where you need 0 taming to control a pet that would take 100 taming to tame. Do I really need to explain it again to point out why necromancy and other magic schools would belong under action points? Are you really not capable of understanding the clear line I've drawn?

I'll draw it again just to make it extra clear.

If a necromancer builds minions that can then be traded to other players who don't need necromancy to lead them into combat, necromancy would belong under professions. But assuming necromancy is needed to control your minions, or offers spells used in combat, or has any other direct advantage it gives DURING combat it belongs under action skills.

I'll simplify it for you even more.

If I can make an alt with _____ skill and transfer the advantage of having that skill to my main, it should be a profession. If I need that skill on my combat main to get the advantage it affords me in combat, it should be an action skill.

Are you really not picking up what I'm laying down here? Because this seems like a really simple to understand concept to me.
 
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Kaemik

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Honestly, I would love to see entire magic schools end up under professions. In Dungeons and Dragons, a great deal of spells have no practical application in combat. MMOs pretty much distilled out all the combat spells and ran with those.

But there are some games such as Wurm Online were you can find spells such as "Wild Growth" that cast enough times can turn a bunch of freshly planted saplings into a stand of trees or "Genesis" which removes negative traits and family trees (so they can be inbred) from animals. Not to mention their entire enchantment system was just people casting spells on items to give them magical properties. As long as the entire tree is based on non-combat utility spells that seems 100% fine to me.
 

Necromantic

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Well, there are a some magic schools that don't focus on combat in the planned schools for MO, just that it'll take years until they are in game, if ever.
 

Eldrath

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the Jungle. Meditating on things to come.
Bump.

Since Henrik mentioned on Discord that we will probably have 1100 points in each tree this is more relevant than ever for SV to take a good look at. It´s easy to just go with what "worked" in Mortal Online 1 but I think taming and animal trade should be on the profession tree while everything combat related should stay in action tree.

Considering that breeding is in the cards, taming will become the forgotten step child once again. Since breeding probably won´t take away combat skills.

Animal care is another one that feels off sitting in the action tree.
 

Vagrant

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Bump.

Since Henrik mentioned on Discord that we will probably have 1100 points in each tree this is more relevant than ever for SV to take a good look at. It´s easy to just go with what "worked" in Mortal Online 1 but I think taming and animal trade should be on the profession tree while everything combat related should stay in action tree.

Considering that breeding is in the cards, taming will become the forgotten step child once again. Since breeding probably won´t take away combat skills.

Animal care is another one that feels off sitting in the action tree.
[/QUOTE

Henrik did mention 1100 points per each of 2 trees,
which has me thinking again about all this too since I *hope* my main character as a tamer will be worth pursuing again.

Henrik also said breeding would eventually return *without* a negative impact on taming, I REALLY hope that's true, but we'll see...
I'm hopeful that means a lot was learnt from the first taming vs breeding clusterf'k.

Intuitively, Taming, animal care AND breeding, are all part of real-life 'professions' and are definitely a 'craft', your craft does not mean you just 'make stuff' it's a 'profession' and you'll likely have to sink most of entire single character in to in order to cover lores of all species and relevant skills, these lores should also assist breeding, taming and animal care in some way.

I don't believe it should be a part of pvp builds just to allow the convenience of getting your own horse, I'm amused by the image of a hard-arse knight falling off their horse in battle only to jog off to a horse spawn and suddenly be this calm animal-loving being convincing a horse nicely to come with him to battle with "i promise i wont hurt you" LOL, the poor horse needs to be insulated from this horror by the professional tamer as the go-between of course ! ...

'Creature Control' is another thing, this should remain an action available to everyone requiring some skill effort to allow for higher end creatures and abilities etc. This also seems intuitive as you as the customer, have bought a ready-trained animal with certain abilities and traits trained and ready, you just need to 'control' it as part of your pvp or other build.


Anyway I'm a vagrant, I wont have a base and I wont have a hoard of gold or a keep to pay for npc-assist breeding,
so this is solely from my own perspective and playstyle empirically.
I just hope it's considered in the context of player created content this time around rather than what was essentially another vendor/npc-based gold sink that was breeding previously.


TLDR -
Taming, Animal Care ( and Breeding ) are intuitively and logically part of your *CRAFT* as a profession.
Creature Control should probably be universally available as an action requiring relevant skill level.

I have no idea about other crossovers that might be affected such as domination or animism as I never followed these :)
 

lord_yoshi

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"Why can't I do everything?" the thread.

Action skills and Profession skills are mostly straightforward. The system is designed to be generalized into one of those two groups, you can't have sub skills dependent on the other branch, so they all have to be on a single branch. Could taming go on the profession side? Sure, but there's a lot more action with creature handling and commanding, so Domestication and all the sub skills are in the action side. Could Engineering go on the action side? Sure, but it's more of a profession instead. Same goes for a lot of skills.

Tl;dr: Putting Domestication skills onto the Profession branch would really turn this game into Pokemon Online.
 
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