Normalize reaction time

barcode

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Right now those with high pings have less time to react to any given attack vs those with low pings. This idea would be to implement a change to normalize ping to a given threshhold so everyone has equal time to react.

first set a duration to normalize to, in this example lets say a ping of 200ms, 100ms in each direction (this could easily change to any other appropriate value if 200 is too high/low)

know the average one-way ping time for each user (averaged over the last x-many seconds as it may change).

user A with 20ms pings (10ms each way) charges a weapon, add 180ms to the minimum charge time (time it takes before you can release the swing at the earliest)
user B with 100ms pings (50ms each way) charges a weapon, add 100ms to the minimum charge time (time it takes before you can release the swing at the earliest)
user C with 200ms pings charges the same weapon, no additional time would need to be added
user D with 300ms pings charges the same weapon, again no additional time should be added

lets look at how this would play out

using a weapon with 500ms swing charge time

0msuser A starts charging his weapon
10msserver knows user A is charging
60msuser B knows user A is charging
110msuser C knows user A is charging
160msuser D knows user A is charging
500msuser A would have finished charging, but needs to add the artificial delay 180ms
540mslast chance user D has to block (540-160 = 380ms to react)
590mslast chance user C has to block (590 - 110 = 480ms to react)
640mslast chance user B has to block (640 - 60 = 580ms to react)
680msuser A finishes charging, releases his attack immediately
690msserver sees user A has released his attack
740msuser B sees user A's attack
790msuser C sees user A's attack
840msuser D sees user A's attack

"but wait" i hear you say, "they all have different amounts of time to block! its not fair!" and this is true, however, the timing works out such that player A has the same amount of time to react to a reciprocal attack. examine the following table (feel free to re-do the example above with whatever ping times you give for each user to verify)

min reaction time vs attackerA defendingB defendingC defendingD defending
A attacking660ms580ms480ms380ms
B attacking580ms500ms400ms300ms
C attacking480ms400ms300ms200ms
D attacking480ms400ms300ms200ms

the times are reciprocal for attacker/defender pairs until you go over whatever ping the times were normalized at. thus player D is at a disadvantage vs lower ping players.

it would help players have an equal chance/handicap vs other players (so long as they're both below the normalization time), and also remove the need for the ridiculous swing delay after you actually release the weapon, allowing combat to feel more fluid in general.

there are some caveats to consider:
  • stamina drain: even tho low ping players will be charging for longer, their charging stamina drain (different from 'holding' stamina drain) should only apply for the normal charge time of the weapon, not the additional time
  • charge times: higher ping players will take longer to charge, meaning they cant swing as fast as other players. The charging circle should charge as normal for the weapon, so their minimum release time would have a more full charge circle than those who have no artificial delay to their charge
  • abnormal/erratic ping times: this could result in getting various artificial charge delays but its not clear how much if any advantage it would afford you

-barcode
 

Phen

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I believe this is easier said than done. I'm not sure what they are using in the back office with their server. Though it sounds very clear they are only using one server. If this is the case I'm not sure how they are pulling off the voodoo for latency as is. Though if its multi server dropped into another server. Then i agree they could route pings differently and add a delay depending on the incoming ping. Who knows though, I see everything already being better than MO1 as is. So any more improvements is just extra icing.
 

Rhias

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Maybe I didn't get the whole thing, but doesn't that also mean that a player with the "normalized" ping is able to do more hit's within the same time, compared to a low ping player?

For simplification let's assume charging the weapon takes 1 second, and releasing also 1 second.
Total time of the low ping player A from charge to release: 1 second charge + 180ms "low ping penalty" + 1 second release = 2.18 seconds
Total time for the "normalize" ping player C from charge to release: 1 second charge + 0ms penalty + 1 second release = 2.00 seconds
 

barcode

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I believe this is easier said than done. I'm not sure what they are using in the back office with their server. Though it sounds very clear they are only using one server. If this is the case I'm not sure how they are pulling off the voodoo for latency as is. Though if its multi server dropped into another server. Then i agree they could route pings differently and add a delay depending on the incoming ping. Who knows though, I see everything already being better than MO1 as is. So any more improvements is just extra icing.
the delay would be calculated and added on the client. Checks would need to happen on the server to make sure theres no shenanigans by the client, but I assume doing the check will be simpler to implement than adding in the delay on the server (tho i may be wrong, maybe they have some kinda thread timing/dispatch thing that can happen, i dunno)

-barcode
 

barcode

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Maybe I didn't get the whole thing, but doesn't that also mean that a player with the "normalized" ping is able to do more hit's within the same time, compared to a low ping player?

For simplification let's assume charging the weapon takes 1 second, and releasing also 1 second.
Total time of the low ping player A from charge to release: 1 second charge + 180ms "low ping penalty" + 1 second release = 2.18 seconds
Total time for the "normalize" ping player C from charge to release: 1 second charge + 0ms penalty + 1 second release = 2.00 seconds
you're correct on this and it was mentioned in the OP. anyone with a ping under the normalization time would suffer some amount of increased minimum charge time. The hope is that the extra charge damage that you gain from having to charge up longer will make up for the time difference. Also consider that this is only an issue if you intend to release your attack immediately after its done with the pullback (which, to be fair, is a very common scenario).

also i'd like to remove the release delay completely. its very annoying and i find it really detracts from the flow of battle. really sucks when you have your attack lined up and release your charge only for your character to sit there not swinging for another quarter second(or whatever time it takes) allowing everything to move out of position and you miss. allow the swing to start immediately (sure heavier weapons take longer for the swing animation to play than faster weapons, but this animation should start the instant you release your charge)

honestly i'm not sure what purpose the release delay has, maybe theres a valid reason for it but i've no idea what it might be

-barcode
 

Valoran

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you're correct on this and it was mentioned in the OP. anyone with a ping under the normalization time would suffer some amount of increased minimum charge time. The hope is that the extra charge damage that you gain from having to charge up longer will make up for the time difference. Also consider that this is only an issue if you intend to release your attack immediately after its done with the pullback (which, to be fair, is a very common scenario).

also i'd like to remove the release delay completely. its very annoying and i find it really detracts from the flow of battle. really sucks when you have your attack lined up and release your charge only for your character to sit there not swinging for another quarter second(or whatever time it takes) allowing everything to move out of position and you miss. allow the swing to start immediately (sure heavier weapons take longer for the swing animation to play than faster weapons, but this animation should start the instant you release your charge)

honestly i'm not sure what purpose the release delay has, maybe theres a valid reason for it but i've no idea what it might be

-barcode
Just to clarify, the release delay serves two purposes.

1. It stops people from artificially increasing their ping to cheat causing whacky issues as their 1000+ ping will now be added to every attack

2. It syncs the swing animations for those who have the same ping as one another, so two people with 100 ping will see their weapon release on their own screen at the same time the enemy sees it release on theirs.


The problem with this that my thread on the topic tried to address, is that the likely hood that you will be fighting someone with vastly different ping than you is almost certain, and as such for the majority of fights all it does is achieve purpose 1, while giving whoever has the lower ping all the advantages as they will have not only way more time to react to attacks, but also be able to attack faster than their opponent.


This is why I suggested only adding the one way trip delay of each client to their swings, as it will still achieve purpose 1, but do so in a way that doesn't heavily gimp you verses someone with lower ping.


Syncing with the server itself is the best effort scenario in this situation, as there will always be problems and negatives for all other solutions attempting to make the combat fair.
 
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barcode

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1. It stops people from artificially increasing their ping to cheat causing whacky issues as their 1000+ ping will now be added to every attack

2. It syncs the swing animations for those who have the same ping as one another, so two people with 100 ping will see their weapon release on their own screen at the same time the enemy sees it release on theirs.
interesting.... but it fails to achieve much and at an enormous cost for anyone not right on top of the server.

as for 1, distance checks should be run by the server when the hit is registered to prevent people with high pings hitting others from miles away. i realize there needs to be some leeway for nominal ping times but this should certainly exclude those with excessively bad networking issues. i day say those with a 1000+ ping should probably not be attempting to do any real time combat let alone melee combat. if there really needs to be a back and forth to prevent shenanigans, it should come when the swing is being charged and not when released.

as for 2 its just punishment for people with higher ping times and fails on all counts to achieve anything meaningful. even if you happen to run up against someone with a similar ping time, and you release it on their screen at the same time as yours, you've moved a full ping time ahead of where you are on their screen negating any effect you might think it would have on desync issues. in that scenario your position will *always* be a full ping time away from where they see you on their screen. Also the cost in this case is for everyone and with no upper bound so people in australia with already poor ping times are going to be hit by the high ping stick even harder

probably the most important issue with the release delay is that it makes combat feel unresponsive. watching your opponent move out of position as you wait for your toon to swing just feels bad

-barcode
 

Valoran

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interesting.... but it fails to achieve much and at an enormous cost for anyone not right on top of the server.

as for 1, distance checks should be run by the server when the hit is registered to prevent people with high pings hitting others from miles away. i realize there needs to be some leeway for nominal ping times but this should certainly exclude those with excessively bad networking issues. i day say those with a 1000+ ping should probably not be attempting to do any real time combat let alone melee combat. if there really needs to be a back and forth to prevent shenanigans, it should come when the swing is being charged and not when released.

as for 2 its just punishment for people with higher ping times and fails on all counts to achieve anything meaningful. even if you happen to run up against someone with a similar ping time, and you release it on their screen at the same time as yours, you've moved a full ping time ahead of where you are on their screen negating any effect you might think it would have on desync issues. in that scenario your position will *always* be a full ping time away from where they see you on their screen. Also the cost in this case is for everyone and with no upper bound so people in australia with already poor ping times are going to be hit by the high ping stick even harder

probably the most important issue with the release delay is that it makes combat feel unresponsive. watching your opponent move out of position as you wait for your toon to swing just feels bad

-barcode
This is ultimately the crux of my criticism on the swing delay, in that it may achieve what it sets out to achieve rather well (The syncing of swing release animations on clients with the same ping) however this comes at an enormous cost to the fairness of the game during most fights, while creating issues that are arguably far more problematic than not having the system in place at all.

My compromise of syncing with just the server is I believe quite reasonable, although I would still like to test the game in its current state without the delay system at all for a baseline, as there have been other general improvements to the netcode that have not been individually tested in order to determine if the swing delay is even needed anymore.


It is true that the system does nothing to prevent desyncing of player positions due to ping differences, and that is only normal, as the only thing that will help significantly with that going forward is lowering the run speed.
 
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Speznat

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good idea, wouldn't work.

everything you edit client side can be spoofed, and cheated.
SV need to do more stuff server side than we all have less exploids and less hackers and stuff. that would be great. and people with vpn or noticible unbelievable in upload delay over a long time should get insta ban.

i dont think it will work so many engeniers and programmers tried to solve the "peekers andvantage" its just not possible. evne games like lol, counter strike, pubpg, and all the other hsit out there. and they all together cant get rid of that. so yeah. nice idea will not work in any way sry.

anyway maybe some day a solution will be found, but i highly doubt that, its just how networking works. if you wanna solve that Yout must change the internet INfastructure and the networking technonologies comepletly to solve this shit. and thats not gonna happen anytime this milenial i guess.
 

Speznat

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and by the way the higher your ping is the more of peeker advantage you have the more agreesive you play the better, but if you have high ping and dont move much and dont play agreesive youre the guy who is screwed, that just how it works.

thats by the way why many "Good stremaers" have always an agressive play psuh playstyle because it the one with the advantage all the time ever. the guy sitting and waiting and camping is always in a disadvantage in times of reaction. even if you just stand in a fight for short time youre screwed. if you have high ping.
 

chingaperros

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and by the way the higher your ping is the more of peeker advantage you have the more agreesive you play the better, but if you have high ping and dont move much and dont play agreesive youre the guy who is screwed, that just how it works.

thats by the way why many "Good stremaers" have always an agressive play psuh playstyle because it the one with the advantage all the time ever. the guy sitting and waiting and camping is always in a disadvantage in times of reaction. even if you just stand in a fight for short time youre screwed. if you have high ping.
Only that you cant even play aggresive now, because you swing as slow as a maul. At least I do with 170-200 ping, which is not that high.

They should honestly just remove this delay and start applying it to ppl with pings over 400+. Australians usually are in the 300s and we dont have many players from Antartica.
 
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Dracu

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and by the way the higher your ping is the more of peeker advantage you have the more agreesive you play the better, but if you have high ping and dont move much and dont play agreesive youre the guy who is screwed, that just how it works.

thats by the way why many "Good stremaers" have always an agressive play psuh playstyle because it the one with the advantage all the time ever. the guy sitting and waiting and camping is always in a disadvantage in times of reaction. even if you just stand in a fight for short time youre screwed. if you have high ping.
Not in mo2 currently. High ping is a huge disadvantage with no pros. You can make your ping worse and see for youself.

I tried 300 latency and boy is that shit.
 

Speznat

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Not in mo2 currently. High ping is a huge disadvantage with no pros. You can make your ping worse and see for youself.

I tried 300 latency and boy is that shit.
you forgot a very important thing.


if you have ultra high ping and i have ultra low ping, youre in a running motion that is not directly state no server dont predict righ you tunr in a other direction imediatly, and while that i stand still and havent moved for 1 second.

than i would not have moved for your for about 1.7- to maybe lets say 2-2.5 seconds. than you have the advantage.

if you play the right style its possible, work in every shooter too. nearly in every competetive multiplayer game, but sure its not so a hardcore benefit like in coutner strike or bf5 but its there.

hopefully future generation have a solution for this, on top of the atomic waste problem.
 
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Dracu

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you forgot a very important thing.


if you have ultra high ping and i have ultra low ping, youre in a running motion that is not directly state no server dont predict righ you tunr in a other direction imediatly, and while that i stand still and havent moved for 1 second.

than i would not have moved for your for about 1.7- to maybe lets say 2-2.5 seconds. than you have the advantage.

if you play the right style its possible, work in every shooter too. nearly in every competetive multiplayer game, but sure its not so a hardcore benefit like in coutner strike or bf5 but its there.

hopefully future generation have a solution for this too, on top of the atomic waste.
Yeah thats on paper but just try it out. I mean all this theoretical talk is nice and all but sometimes you have to see it for yourself to understand the other side of the argument.


These theoretical advantages are all irrelevant untill proven in praxis.

With that tool you can make your ping worse for testing purposes.

Edit:
I suggest every low ping player that is against any changes etc. To try high ping out and see the issues for themselves
 

Speznat

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its the same as you would say, if i dont look at it its not there. it doesnt change the physics that gravity exists and that the earth is turning around the sun.

its a technical/networking delay, even if you dont "feel" an advantage its there. you can messure it. so its an advantage. its maybe in some game and some stuff not the you win 100% advvantage. but if you kd is 0,7 and you get to 1.2-1.5 its a advantage.

ok wait a second i will make it short:
  • you have 900ping to server
  • i have 50ping to server
  • server 10ms
  • your pc 10ms
  • my pc 20ms
so you start running. now
than for me at my screen you start running: 0.93~ seconds later
(yout input delay to your router 10ms, 850ms, server calctime IDK maybe 10, travel time to me 50ms, my input plus shit monitor and shit everything 20ms)

so how the fuck on this planet earth doesn't 0.93~ seconds give you an advantage?

if i stand still for just 1ms, the server get that package, than it lands on your pc you see 0.93~ seconds later that i stayed there, than you hit me.
sry i realised its to damn long and i will not waste anymore time on that, please watch youtube about that, im not goona explain that shit again.
i just epxlained that to a dumb fuck that said to a video were someone have the peakers advantage that that guy is a cheater. thats common that people say fuck cheater, but in reality its just someone with a high ping. in shooter its mor epresent.

But in Mortal it happend often if you got hit from to far away form someone for example i bet you had that too sometimes.

anyway, party hard. have a nice day.

i was myself angry about how that shit is working, and i hate it, but there is no technical solution what we can do the only thing is make the pediction bette,r maybe someday someone come up with learned ai of player behavior and can predict and show the moves better, than you could elimate that maybe. but its a mask and not a real solution.

the problem will ever be there.
 
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Dracu

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its the same as you would say, if i dont look at it its not there. it doesnt change the physics that gravity exists and that the earth is turning around the sun.

its a technical/networking delay, even if you dont "feel" an advantage its there. you can messure it. so its an advantage. its maybe in some game and some stuff not the you win 100% advvantage. but if you kd is 0,7 and you get to 1.2-1.5 its a advantage.

ok wait a second i will make it short:
  • you have 900ping to server
  • i have 50ping to server
  • server 10ms
  • your pc 10ms
  • my pc 20ms
so you start running. now
than for me at my screen you start running: 0.93~ seconds later
(yout input delay to your router 10ms, 850ms, server calctime IDK maybe 10, travel time to me 50ms, my input plus shit monitor and shit everything 20ms)

so how the fuck on this planet earth doesn't 0.93~ seconds give you an advantage?

if i stand still for just 1ms, the server get that package, than it lands on your pc you see 0.93~ seconds later that i stayed there, than you hit me.
sry i realised its to damn long and i will not waste anymore time on that, please watch youtube about that, im not goona explain that shit again.

anyway, party hard.
just try it yourself... like seriously its not that hard to download small programm click 2 buttons and go duell... high ping has extreme disadvantage

300er ping vs 25 ping in action
Kavu is AUS player with that ping... this is litterally unplayable
 

Speznat

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just try it yourself... like seriously its not that hard to download small programm click 2 buttons and go duell... high ping has extreme disadvantage

300er ping in action
at 14-15 you stand nearly still. if you would be in a flued running motion aorund the target like in mo1 were every shit player runs around and spams than you have an Advantage. maybe the MO2 playstyle dont allow that, than thats good. but stop denying the technical limitation it drives me crazy like people who think 5g is harmfull. feeling are not stuff that is physics or math. Its good if it really make a little little differents. instead of huge game breaking shit.
(and i said agressive) very agresive moving and unpredicable moving, thats why its a very huge advantag in shooters)
but hopefully it will not be a big thing in MO2. maybe they should tweak combat that the asshole that is running like crazy in combat should have autmaticly have a disadvantage dont know what but something that dueling and standing gorund maybe some left right moves or slower circling make sense instead of running to near to the enemy and hold the weapon and than.

old mo1 duelling was just who can turn the mouse faster and who can wathc the target better, its often just garbage fighting. not like real knights fought anyway but thats a other topic.

but i often got hin in MO1 form 20 meters away, and some other shit stuff. so yeah
 

Speznat

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just try it yourself... like seriously its not that hard to download small programm click 2 buttons and go duell... high ping has extreme disadvantage

300er ping vs 25 ping in action
Kavu is AUS player with that ping... this is litterally unplayable
ok quickest summary ever:

if you high ping and other guy low ping = you have advantage peaking and while in motion.
if you low ping and other guy high ping = and you not moving you have disadvantage.

thats just how networking works. so yeah i will stop arguing about that.

have a great day.
Party Hard
 

Dracu

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at 14-15 you stand nearly still. if you would be in a flued running motion aorund the target like in mo1 were every shit player runs around and spams than you have an Advantage. maybe the MO2 playstyle dont allow that, than thats good. but stop denying the technical limitation it drives me crazy like people who think 5g is harfull. feeling are not stuff that is physics or math. Its good if it really make a little little differents. instead of huge game breaking shit.
(and i said agressive) very agresive moving and unpredicable moving, thats why its a very huge advantag ein shooters)
but hopefully it will not be a big thing in MO2. maybe they should tweak combat that the asshole that is running like crazy in combat should have autmaticly have a disadvantage like more exposed and easier hitbox or whatever shit.

but i often got hin in MO1 form 20 meters away, and some other shit stuff. so yeah
Its not that i deny your thesis and i didnt do so prior, iam honestly not reading them at all. Not that i dont aknowledge it but i highly dislike this theoretical talking without even having seen the current state and throughly testing it. There are many issues atm with combat that many ppl dont see unless they fight regulary. I see no point in arguing based on some thesis cause we dont know exactly how SV set up their system and how they prevent specific things. Its very speculative... but the stuff you see and can do in game that is the really relevant stuff.

Thats why i insist on everyone before talking about this kind of stuff seriously to atleast try the current state and try the other side to get atleast a feeling for where these suggestions come from and where you notice them. Else i personally cant take them seriously...

Like said i dont deny your thesis, i just tell you.. High Ping has a huge disadvantage against low ping.. because thats the praxis. You wont find any regular player that will deny this. The only ppl saying this are the ppl that dont play.