New Player Experience Shaping Up Into a Complete Disaster

[Kaemik]

So far we have been given two parts of the new player experience. Character creation and initial leveling. Talking purely in terms of how stats work and the methods of leveling things are bad. Really bad. Yes I realize these two things are essentially the same as they were in MO1. And that's the point. MO1 new player experience was one of the worst new player experiences of any MMO I've ever played. I only say "one of" in case I've forgotten one. It's literally the worst I can remember. This is why I didn't play your game more before. And the fact I thought you were fixing this nonsense was the primary reason I was excited about MO2. I'm not sure I can recommend this game to friends anymore if you really leave these two problems as are though.

Why is Character Creation Bad?

Because of stats. In most games you create a character, your initial race pick has some effects but it isn't going to make or break your character, you get in, play have fun. Your character can grow and evolve as you learn the game.

In MO1 you're given a laundry list of stats that you need to understand, how they relate to your final build, and then optimize around. Meaningful choices are good. But not highly detailed make-or-break a character decision at the stage you are creating it. When I recruit someone new into the guild my first conversation shouldn't be "race and age"? "Oh yeah that's terrible, go reroll, here is what you need to play." But it's that is GOING to be the conversation I have with most new recruits if things stay the way they are now.

Solution

Implement diminishing returns so stat caps matter a bit less and there are more viable builds per clade. Remove age entirely. Just give us a wrinkle slider and hair color selection. Seriously, it does not enhance the game in any way.

(If you don't understand the concept of diminishing returns try making a character that has a total of 28 points in the 3.5 point-buy calculator for this site. Pretend Wisdom is Phyche, Charisma is size, and each point is worth 5 and you'll have a very good idea of how diminishing returns work)

Why is Initial Leveling Bad

My character is leveling as I wrote this. I stuck him in a building with the mouse macro (right-click down, 100MS delay, right-click up, 100MS delay) looped. I understand this allowed (though it really shouldn't be post-beta) but the fact that I'm having to use a macro to bypass doing repetitive actions for character advancement is a huge problem guys. I remember all this from MO1. Wall running, spurt spamming, an endless list of boring repetitive tasks needed to level a new character.

People don't want to spend their first day or two in-game doing repetitive unfun nonsense to develop their character. Nor should macros be used to have to bypass bad game design. A great many will save themselves the trouble and just quit.

Solution

While leveling crafting is fine for the most part, action skills would be a lot better to level if enemies had XP values that get fed into action skills set to be raised when you kill something. You could implement more complex versions of this that for instance require you to be mounted to level mounted skills or require you to make the kill with magic to level magic skills but a simple system of enemies having flat XP values that get fed into the skills to be raised is 1000% better than any system that has me spamming block in a corner.

In a system where kills give XP the best way to level is for newbs to go find mobs of their strength level and kill them. Or band together in groups for higher value kills. You know, playing the game. Having fun. Not mindless repetition.

 

[Anabolic Man]

I think that we need a Character reroll option, and specific Infos during the CHaracter creation. For which builds a race is suitable and specific Infos, such as that you will need 121 Str to wield an MC Weapon or a havy Bow, if this is the case. Ohter wise Players will be pissed off, if they have to reroll. I hope Races such as the Human will also be possbile to use for a Hybrid Build between MC and Footfighter. It sux if the Human is limited to play as a Hybrid and can´t do MC. He should get a choice to reach high STR, depending which Parents you select, whch could cost him some Points in Dex.

 

[Kaemik]

Rerolls are fine but I don't think they address every problem diminishing returns do. If they are implemented without it, I don't think they go near far enough to solve the major balance issues that have racked this game for so long.

 

[Apocryphal]

Yee, its utopia to not imagine that people are going to have to re-roll in mass when they start. Give people a re-roll token for now, at least. I honestly cant see a way they can fix it without changing the whole system.

Races are distinct, some will always end up better than others for certain things and every new player will suffer for it. They can adjust it as much as they want, diminishing returns etc. but some will still always just end up being flat out better for x and y.

Maybe once you leave Heaven you get to remake your char?

 

[Anabolic Man]

Yee, its utopia to not imagine that people are going to have to re-roll in mass when they start. Give people a re-roll token for now, at least. I honestly cant see a way they can fix it without changing the whole system.

Races are distinct, some will always end up better than others for certain things and every new player will suffer for it. They can adjust it as much as they want, diminishing returns etc. but some will still always just end up being flat out better for x and y.

Maybe once you leave Heaven you get to remake your char?

I thinkt his would be a good solution + a description for what builds a specific Race would be suitable.

 

[Kaemik]

Yee, its utopia to not imagine that people are going to have to re-roll in mass when they start. Give people a re-roll token for now, at least. I honestly cant see a way they can fix it without changing the whole system.

Races are distinct, some will always end up better than others for certain things and every new player will suffer for it. They can adjust it as much as they want, diminishing returns etc. but some will still always just end up being flat out better for x and y.

Maybe once you leave Heaven you get to remake your char?

"They can adjust it as much as they want, diminishing returns etc. but some will still always just end up being flat out better for x and y."

The level of disparity there should be between different races for certain builds:

The level of disparity there is be between different races for certain builds:

Perfect balance is an unachievable dream. That doesn't mean they shouldn't even freaking try. Diminishing returns are such a basic way to show they give shit.

 

[Apocryphal]

"They can adjust it as much as they want, diminishing returns etc. but some will still always just end up being flat out better for x and y."

The level of disparity there should be between different races for certain builds:

The level of disparity there is be between different races for certain builds:

Perfect balance is an unachievable dream. That doesn't mean they shouldn't even freaking try. Diminishing returns are such a basic way to show they give shit.

My point is that they can tweak it to the worlds end, and of course your first example would be a lot better, but people would still re-roll. Even with the smaller disparity. Its gonna take 10-20 hours? To max a char, I dont imagine people wont reroll even for a small advantage.

If we want to get away from people re-rolling just being part of the learning curve then you either need to be able to change your chars stats entirely (ingame) to match any other races (and changing it needs to be easiere than the work involved in re-rolling), or the races need to be the same.

 

[Kaemik]

Re-rolls are not a problem. I'm fine with and even somewhat support them. For instance when naval combat makes it in I may very well want to retool my build around ship combat instead of land combat and I imagine that might make certain races more optimal than others.

But for instance, if I REALLY want to play Sarduucan, and I REALLY want to be a melee fighter. I shouldn't need to reroll unless I want to be 100% optimal and which is 100% optimal should be at least SOMEWHAT debatable. Reasonable people could disagree on which of the two weapons in the first picture is better. The AK-47 may look less fancy but it's actually an exceptionally reliable weapon that's less prone to jamming in extreme conditions than a lot of "better" weapons. For the 2nd picture, only a troll or someone trying to play devil's advocate really is going to advocate for the sharpened stick over the helicopter-mounted chaingun.

I want someone to be able to argue Sarduucan's purebloods are better melee fighters than Thursar/Kallard without looking like a complete freaking idiot. Even if they aren't fully optimal if there is a context in which they are better, and they are overall less outclassed in most scenarios, then the game will be far better for it IMO.

 

[Anabolic Man]

I kinda have to agree, that i would prefer playing the Human, and to have the freedom to play the build i want to. This would only be possible if every race, no matter which parents someone selected, could change their Stats to a specific statscaps of another Race with specific Parents. This could theoreticly be implementet, if an Alchemist could craft Character Reroll Potions, that would change the Max Stats of a Human to the Max Stats and Cladegifts of another Race with specific Parents, without changin the look.
But that would also change a lot ! The whole System would have to be reworked. That would of course lead to the fact, that a player can no longer recognize the builds, if he see a specific race, or which Cladegifts are available to a player you fight against.

I don´t think SV will do that.

If this would be possible, i would be the first who would rater pay a lot of Gold becuase of estectic reasons, to change my stats on a specific looking Character to make hin viable for the Build i want to play. I can unserstand that some players, especially Roleplayers want to have a specific look, to look as beautiful or ugly as they want to, without resticting them in their prefered Playstyle.

I am a Player who would buy a special Skin for his Race to let him look more beautiful or more human like, even if you wear Armor most of the time.

I always take my time to create a character.
But the more options you have to change your look, the worse the performance in large fights and I prefer good performance.

 

[Anabolic Man]

I made a thread how the human race can be buffed. I think it is important that the Human is not limited to play as a Hybrid. A combination of Parents should get him much higher STR, to be able to wield a MC Weapon, at the expense of his maximum dex.

Most new Players will create a human, becuase of cosmetic reasons, and especially if we don´t have a descriptions, which race is recommended to choose for specific Builds. I think thsi need to be added. New Players should not regret their decission. It is important to tell the Players how much Str it will need to wield a good MC weapon or to use the best Bows during the Character Creation.

My Ideas to Buff the Human Race + Human race specific Build. New Players will create a human as the first character, and shouldn't regret it.

I opened a Thread that discussed the Question, if it would be a good Idea if SV would give us 50-100 more Skillpoints. I totally Changed my opinion on that, after discussing with the other Players about the Balance Problems this would cause. I had a specific Build in Mind (The Survivalist), i...

mortalonline2.com

 

[Apocryphal]

Re-rolls are not a problem. I'm fine with and even somewhat support them. For instance when naval combat makes it in I may very well want to retool my build around ship combat instead of land combat and I imagine that might make certain races more optimal than others.

But for instance, if I REALLY want to play Sarduucan, and I REALLY want to be a melee fighter. I shouldn't need to reroll unless I want to be 100% optimal and which is 100% optimal should be at least SOMEWHAT debatable. Reasonable people could disagree on which of the two weapons in the first picture is better. The AK-47 may look less fancy but it's actually an exceptionally reliable weapon that's less prone to jamming in extreme conditions than a lot of "better" weapons. For the 2nd picture, only a troll or someone trying to play devil's advocate really is going to advocate for the sharpened stick over the helicopter-mounted chaingun.

I want someone to be able to argue Sarduucan's purebloods are better melee fighters than Thursar/Kallard without looking like a complete freaking idiot. Even if they aren't fully optimal if there is a context in which they are better, and they are overall less outclassed in most scenarios, then the game will be far better for it IMO.

Makes sense, and I completely agree, except the re-roll part. But ye, would vastly prefer your suggestion in contrast to what we have now.
I really dislike re-rolls since they are trying to go for the whole 'one char' approach, and it would be really neat if most people actually ended up only playing the one char, gives a lot more identity to each person you meet ingame.

If they keep the current approach I would probably also want to re-roll once they add ships, but I will likely just get another account instead, to avoid the re-roll.

 

[Kaemik]

What I mean by I'm fine with rerolls is I'm fine with them adding ways to change your race/clade without a total character reset. It doesn't address all my problems but it doesn't bother me so long as it's not used as an alternative to better racial balancing. If you actually feel the need to delete and restart your character that is a massive problem in a single-character game. Or in general really.

 

[lord_yoshi]

It seems more like a tryharding problem than an actual game problem. Adding diminishing returns to every attribute will just make every character a hybrid, and nobody is forcing you to macro grind for days just for a minor advantage instead of actually playing the game. The actual reason MO1 new player experiences sucked was that initial character speed was absurdly slow and this was addressed. In MO2, a 10 dex fat mage runs at around 80% the speed of a 120 dex character, so leveling should be perfectly fine.

 

[Anabolic Man]

It seems more like a tryharding problem than an actual game problem. Adding diminishing returns to every attribute will just make every character a hybrid, and nobody is forcing you to macro grind for days just for a minor advantage instead of actually playing the game. The actual reason MO1 new player experiences sucked was that initial character speed was absurdly slow and this was addressed. In MO2, a 10 dex fat mage runs at around 80% the speed of a 120 dex character, so leveling should be perfectly fine.

Playerspeed should be 100 % from start of the game. You should get more stamina during the progression.

 

[Eldrath]

I think they should just scale experience gain with the damage you do. f.e. you gain 1 exp in swords/feint/etc. when hitting for 0-1 damage but you gain 30 exp for hitting for 30 damage. Furthermore all experience gain by movement should be sped up enormously.

Turning all character into skins is boring to me, but ultimately where the current design is headed. I think it will lead to a less interesting experience.

SV fixing these issues would be a million timers more helpful than Haven. But their "solution" is that you gain experience faster on Haven. Another good example how to avoid dealing with a problem by delusional thinking.

 

[Kaemik]

It seems more like a tryharding problem than an actual game problem. Adding diminishing returns to every attribute will just make every character a hybrid, and nobody is forcing you to macro grind for days just for a minor advantage instead of actually playing the game. The actual reason MO1 new player experiences sucked was that initial character speed was absurdly slow and this was addressed. In MO2, a 10 dex fat mage runs at around 80% the speed of a 120 dex character, so leveling should be perfectly fine.

It's a PvP game. The default mentality to be expected is that everyone will do everything in their power to be as powerful as possible. If certain races are the viable ones. Those are the ones that people will play. If certain leveling methods are the fastest, those are the ones top guilds will teach their recruits. You're completely delusional to think anything else.

The actual reason MO1 new player experience sucked in MO1 is it sucked. It sucked because of speed. It sucked because of non-viable races and the need to reroll. It sucked because people were getting camped 10 seconds after character creation. It sucked because you spend your first couple of days in-game casting spurt on yourself and running/swimming into walls. All of these reasons contributed to fact that MO1 had the worst new player experience of any MMO ever. All of them deserve to be addressed.

MO1 was bad when it released. But new player experiences were less refined back then. Coming into the market in 2021 with no diminishing returns resulting in some damn near unplayable race combos and macro-spamming actions as a leveling system is like expecting to start a mining company in 2021 with pickaxes and horse-drawn carts. The few gains they've made might have made this game slightly sub-par in 2010 but they have in no way kept up with 11 years of advancements. It's going to go over like a lead balloon.

 

[KermyWormy]

It's a PvP game. The default mentality to be expected is that everyone will do everything in their power to be as powerful as possible. If certain races are the viable ones. Those are the ones that people will play. If certain leveling methods are the fastest, those are the ones top guilds will teach their recruits. You're completely delusional to think anything else.

The actual reason MO1 new player experience sucked in MO1 is it sucked. It sucked because of speed. It sucked because of non-viable races and the need to reroll. It sucked because people were getting camped 10 seconds after character creation. It sucked because you spend your first couple of days in-game casting spurt on yourself and running/swimming into walls. All of these reasons contributed to fact that MO1 had the worst new player experience of any MMO ever. All of them deserve to be addressed.

MO1 was bad when it released. But new player experiences were less refined back then. Coming into the market in 2021 with no diminishing returns resulting in some damn near unplayable race combos and macro-spamming actions as a leveling system is like expecting to start a mining company in 2021 with pickaxes and horse-drawn carts. The few gains they've made might have made this game slightly sub-par in 2010 but they have in no way kept up with 11 years of advancements. It's going to go over like a lead balloon.

You've had the quickest descent from bright eyed optimist to salt factory I've seen in this game.

 

[Kaemik]

I've always thought MO1 was a complete and utter garbage game with some really great ideas wasted on a terrible delivery. I thought the idea with MO2 was to correct those problems and based on the way they were talking it sounded like they had learned enough from past mistakes to do that. Take the gold nuggets out of the dogshit and make the game MO1 should have been.

Seeing how races and leveling have been implemented it's apparent they haven't learned shit. This game is just a reskin plus gimmicks. I have some hope they might see that and correct things. But I'm starting to believe I may just be riding this game out until it inevitably fails and it ends up as bad or worse off than MO1. I hope I'm wrong. I see 0 evidence to suggest I am. Releasing a game anywhere near as bad as MO1 in 2021 with a larger map will lead to failure so fast it will make your head spin. Major solutions are needed yesterday.

I'd like to point out there hasn't been a single time I've told any game developers "You're ruining your own game and need to fix it" that the community hasn't rallied around and defended the crap I'm calling out. There also hasn't be a single time I've told any game developers "You're ruining your own game and need to fix it" that the game didn't see a massive decline in player population over the next 2-3 years, or complete failure to ever reach any level of success.

I say these things because I care. Because I see MO2 on a course to join ArcheAge (Where the players got everything they ever asked for with Unchained and the game is still failing), and Pathfinder Online and all these other terrible games in the dustbin of gaming history. Awful games with tiny, shrinking, echo chamber communities that never amount to anything if they aren't outright shut down. And I don't want to see that happen so I'm putting forth ideas I feel can prevent it. They will probably be ignored, and this game will probably fail to even achieve the same success MO1 did at it's peak. But I sincerely hope they aren't and it doesn't. This game has so much potential to waste.

 

[Teknique]

It's a PvP game. The default mentality to be expected is that everyone will do everything in their power to be as powerful as possible. If certain races are the viable ones. Those are the ones that people will play. If certain leveling methods are the fastest, those are the ones top guilds will teach their recruits. You're completely delusional to think anything else.

This is facts

The actual reason MO1 new player experience sucked in MO1 is it sucked. It sucked because of speed. It sucked because of non-viable races and the need to reroll. It sucked because people were getting camped 10 seconds after character creation. It sucked because you spend your first couple of days in-game casting spurt on yourself and running/swimming into walls. All of these reasons contributed to fact that MO1 had the worst new player experience of any MMO ever. All of them deserve to be addressed.

MO1 was bad when it released. But new player experiences were less refined back then. Coming into the market in 2021 with no diminishing returns resulting in some damn near unplayable race combos and macro-spamming actions as a leveling system is like expecting to start a mining company in 2021 with pickaxes and horse-drawn carts. The few gains they've made might have made this game slightly sub-par in 2010 but they have in no way kept up with 11 years of advancements. It's going to go over like a lead balloon.

Even as a new player I greatly preferred getting a skill like endurance to 100 in an hour or two then any kind of grindy mmorpg. That's a 1 to 1 relationship run around and get stronger at running around. You get an immediate sense of progression and gratification in MO from seeing your chat log fill with skill and attribute increases.

Its true that I did fall victim to the reroll even though my khurite khurite was technically viable. I would support a reroll token given to all players due to how common the need to reroll is.

Most of the above activities are things you would do as a vet to level quicker, as a new player I ran around and fought (and died) to belbus and explored the world. Then I progressed to killing animals skinning them and selling to vendors to bank gold and I had a tonne of fun doing it.

I also had a tonne of fun avoiding ganks, watching other players engage in fights, killing other noobs and taking their stuff. I dled the game on a Friday and was red on the Sunday and I no longer knew how to play since I couldn’t enter towns. I think I spent every waking moment that weekend playing mo in between resets and server roll backs. Glad they’re allowing you to enter towns red now.

Where I ran into trouble was when I had to start dropping animal lores for combat skills and when I turned red. It’s good they’re fixing those things. If you couldn’t have fun in mo At steam release then the game will probably never be for you

 

[Kaemik]

Even as a new player I greatly preferred getting a skill like endurance to 100 in an hour or two then any kind of grindy mmorpg. That's a 1 to 1 relationship run around and get stronger at running around. You get an immediate sense of progression and gratification in MO from seeing your chat log fill with skill and attribute increases.

Quick grinds are great. Quickly grinding by macro punching your buddy or running into a corner are not. If it takes 2 days to max level a character I'm fine with that. But I'd rather it be two days farming graveyard zombies or half that time of grouping up with your buddies and doing higher tier content together. Not two days of macroing.