Huge Feedback about the flagging System and how to improve it.

Anabolic Man

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Sep 7, 2020
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First Problem is the following.

If you defend your Town you will get a murderer at some point.

1.-A guild that capture a town, or protect it, should not get murdercounts for killing a blue player, if one of their Guildmembers in close range is criminal during that time.

But why ?

We got attacked by several Players. We were in the town and the other Guild attacked us and our citizens. They put their blue Characters in the Frontline and we did not know who is red and who is blue. If someone of their blue players got attacked, the guards jumped on us from behind and many people got red, while we defended the town.

I like the hidden red stus system, that red players can enter the town, and that the bounty board will tell us, which murderers are in town and reward you for killing them, but there should be no hidden grey/blue Status and i want to explain why !

The hidden red status is something good.

2.- but we need to get shown, which players have performed a criminal action (have a criminal timer on them) and it need to be made cristal clear for the blue Players, that attacking a grey player will not only turn him grey for thsi grey opponent, he is attacking, but for his whole guild aswell. Not criminal, that he get grey for everyone and get attacked by guards, but for the grey Players Guild, which he choosed to attack.

This is very important, because it is very bad, if all blue players immediatly jump on every grey player. A Blue Player should think twice, before attacking a grey Player, becuase the Guild of the gray player can then attack him aswell, without getting a murdercount.

Why this is so important ?

In MO1 we had situations, in which the Citizens of Tindrem fought the red Players outside. If a Defender of the town excidently attacked another Defender of the town, they all jumped oh him, even when they had the same goal to get rid of the red Players infront of the town,
because the possible loot is apparently more important to them, than winning the fight against the red Players that terrorize the town.



There should be a massage "the whole Gild named ... can now attack you." if a grey Player atatck a blue Player to make this cristal clear

It sux, if someone get accidently grey and get attacked by other Players, and of his guild can´t help him. Only the player that make the final blow or that dealt the most damage should get the Murdercount.

3.- Point 2 require to remove the Option to hide your Guild Tag, which i never liked !

4.- A red can´t defend himself in town. If a blue Palyer attack him, he can´t fight back, or the guards will attack him. This need to be fixed !


5.-Players that got attacked, trade their Items to a friend and kill themselves with the help of mobs, should not be able to report the players that attacked them before.

6.-Animals need to show the blue and grey Status but should not show the red status . We need to know if those animals are tamed or wild animals. Otherwise you attack blue pets, becuase you think they are wild animals and not tamed animals.

Untamed animals will show an Icon (taming) but this is not enough and too confusing. i have seen player tame on pet at the pigspawn and just wait till new players attack it.

7.-Lage Groupfights should not turn the PVP Players red. If two Guilds are fighting each other, the game need to notice that this is a huge Guild vs Guild fight.


Murdercounts should be turned off during that time, if the game recognize that. Look at Point 1

Blue Players attacking the grey player should not only get gray for him, but for his whole guild.


8.- Punishment fpr Murderers

As i wrote before, i like the hidden red Status and that they can enter a Town, but the punishment for reds is not hard enough. I like that regular Murderers, that got red, becuase of some personal Beef, can enter the City, use the crafting tables, sell materials via the postal Servis or the Auction House, but should not be able to have access to the bank. Not everybody know that they are red, except they are hardcore grifers terrorizing the town and their Citizens 24 h a day.

Red Players be forced to use the AH to regear, and the Tax could be increased for red Players. The only Option for hardcore Grifers would be to build a house nearby, in which tey store Materials and regear, and houses of grifers can always be sieged.

This would be a nice balance of Punishment. Hardcore Grifers won´t be able to use the crafting Stations in Town, because all Players know their names and woudl attack them.

The regional murder counts should lead to a situation, that a majority of players from one region sticking together, defending the city and their Land against foreign attackers from other kingdoms, or forming groups to go on a crusade in another kingdom.

If the Punishment for red Players is too low, then this won´t happen, and we have this kill everybody on sight Situation again.
I like if red Players can enter a town, use the craftinmg Tables and that their Murder Status is hidden, but the current system not punish them enough, to make the regional Murdercount System work as intended.
 

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Anabolic Man

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Sep 7, 2020
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The you can´t perform illegal Actions Option shoudl automaticly be deactivated, as soon as you leave the town, or should not be turned on by default.

This option does not harmonate with the new Syste.. Ether remove it, or change it in a way that somone who have turned this option on is not able to deal damage to any player, that does not attacked him first and the option to bind this on a hotkey, to turn it off. Otherwise you see naked guys running arround in town and try to hit everyone with a aword with this option turned on, to see who is red.
 
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Evelyn

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Jan 6, 2021
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The current system is a huge issue for guilds attempting to defend a town from invasion, agreed 100%. We're seeing this behavior of mixing in 1 or 2 blues who intentionally stay blue and do nothing but try to get hit by as many people as possible and then killed in order to crimflag and give murdercounts to the guild defending the town from invasion. Even without this, after a large guild v guild fight there will be many rage murdercounts given out just to spite the winner.

This is all done intentionally so that blue alts can then be abused to repeatedly grief the very guild that is defending the town by attacking them until they have no choice but to fight back and summarily die to the guards.

I don't have any good suggestion besides making it so that no matter what if you are the aggressor, you flag criminal status. The murdercount and guard system does not work in the spirit of guild v guild conflicts.
 

Asthma Queen

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Mar 26, 2021
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Agree 100% as this is an issue we've been experiencing alot defending the city from RPK'ers and horse killers etc. Guards coming back is a great fix and does solve alot of the problems but its incredibly easy to stack murder counts despite not murdering anyone and the aggressing guild coming into your region and trying to kill your members/randoms at crushers, or where-ever, and its the defenders that are getting punished.


Things I'd like to see changed in order of importance.

1. Healing/Assisting a Murderer/Criminal needs to share status so attacking and killing them as they assist attackers isn't a criminal offence and they can't sit safely in town among guards doing so. Ideally find a solution that will also combat blue blocking naked characters from mixing themselves in combat trying to get hit then prompty will either die in combat swinging at the individual who flagged on them or suicide trying to get as many individuals with murder count as possible.

2. Punishment should fit the crime, handle bumps and relatively minor hits should not be grounds for a full murder count. I've gotten many murders just from handle hitting someone who is not directly connected to my group and they might not know better who actually dealt the damage to them, killed them, was defending with them and only bumped them etc. I'd like to see so a certain % of the total damage needs to be dealt in a dealt to even be on the murder charge list. 15-20% for instance.

3. Murder timer needs to not reset when gaining new murder counts especially if it maintains that its only for online time, the murder count timer as it is extremely punishing, and requires saint like behavior during the 7 hours with no city defenses or even personal defenses sometimes, your basically expected to just not do any combat at all for upwards of 30-40+ hours of gameplay as its so incredibly easy to get murder counts otherwise even if your careful when playing normally.
 

Raziel

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Jan 30, 2021
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I don’t think they need to make the system much complicated. I kind of like the system as it is, I’d like to see it work with Territory Control ingame to see how it all works out.

Once Territory Control is on, if you own a town anyone of your guild should be able to enter and guards should never attack people of that guild.

Once you go through the process of taking over a town, it’s normal you decide who can stay in your town and who can’t and can attack who you want in your town. Guards should also always back you up. I mean realistically your guild is the one paying their salary.

If you live in someone else town, you follow their rules, you leave or you take it from them. That’s it, just like in real life 😅. No need to create over complicated systems.

A sandbox should emulate the real world as much as possible especially on simple matters such as these. If you create some unrealistic game mechanic people will just behave unnaturally and find ways around your game mechanics, exploit them and grief the shit out of people in towns.

Just keep Tindrem as impossible to take over and with generic rules for the guys that really don’t wish to take a part in the game politics.
 
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Woody

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Apr 4, 2021
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Agree 100% as this is an issue we've been experiencing alot defending the city from RPK'ers and horse killers etc. Guards coming back is a great fix and does solve alot of the problems but its incredibly easy to stack murder counts despite not murdering anyone and the aggressing guild coming into your region and trying to kill your members/randoms at crushers, or where-ever, and its the defenders that are getting punished.


Things I'd like to see changed in order of importance.

1. Healing/Assisting a Murderer/Criminal needs to share status so attacking and killing them as they assist attackers isn't a criminal offence and they can't sit safely in town among guards doing so. Ideally find a solution that will also combat blue blocking naked characters from mixing themselves in combat trying to get hit then prompty will either die in combat swinging at the individual who flagged on them or suicide trying to get as many individuals with murder count as possible.

2. Punishment should fit the crime, handle bumps and relatively minor hits should not be grounds for a full murder count. I've gotten many murders just from handle hitting someone who is not directly connected to my group and they might not know better who actually dealt the damage to them, killed them, was defending with them and only bumped them etc. I'd like to see so a certain % of the total damage needs to be dealt in a dealt to even be on the murder charge list. 15-20% for instance.

3. Murder timer needs to not reset when gaining new murder counts especially if it maintains that its only for online time, the murder count timer as it is extremely punishing, and requires saint like behavior during the 7 hours with no city defenses or even personal defenses sometimes, your basically expected to just not do any combat at all for upwards of 30-40+ hours of gameplay as its so incredibly easy to get murder counts otherwise even if your careful when playing normally.

Agreed with all points here. Point 1 should also include completing a trade (accept trade). 2. is important. Murder eligibility should be more specific to the player who actually caused your death. I like the percentage idea but would need to fall off after a period of time or if the player heals enough before their next death.

I don’t think they need to make the system much complicated. I kind of like the system as it is, I’d like to see it work with Territory Control ingame to see how it all works out.

Once Territory Control is on, if you own a town anyone of your guild should be able to enter and guards should never attack people of that guild.

Once you go through the process of taking over a town, it’s normal you decide who can stay in your town and who can’t and can attack who you want in your town. Guards should also always back you up. I mean realistically your guild is the one paying their salary.

If you live in someone else town, you follow their rules, you leave or you take it from them. That’s it, just like in real life 😅. No need to create over complicated systems.

A sandbox should emulate the real world as much as possible especially on simple matters such as these. If you create some unrealistic game mechanic people will just behave unnaturally and find ways around your game mechanics, exploit them and grief the shit out of people in towns.

Just keep Tindrem as impossible to take over and with generic rules for the guys that really don’t wish to take a part in the game politics.

Agreed. Not only that but GvG and flagging another guild as an enemy will likely be a thing in the near future.
 

Raziel

Member
Jan 30, 2021
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Agreed with all points here. Point 1 should also include completing a trade (accept trade). 2. is important. Murder eligibility should be more specific to the player who actually caused your death. I like the percentage idea but would need to fall off after a period of time or if the player heals enough before their next death.



Agreed. Not only that but GvG and flagging another guild as an enemy will likely be a thing in the near future.

Yes, I don't know what's the plan, I remember on MO1 you could declare war on only 1 guild. But it was a problem people would declare wars between friends to cover their asses. Dunno if they fixed this issue on MO1. Here again, if you put hard rules on the game people find a way around it and just end up exploiting it and you have a whole game mechanic completely useless that was developed for nothing.
 
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Sinraw

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I've always been an advocate against the new "flag" system as imo, its way to vague and confusing (ESPECIALLY for new players). But if Henrik insists, maybe some sort of compromise could be met.

Why not at the exit of every town you can find a bounty board. It gives your character a buff that lasts X amount of time that allows the player to see who is red/grey.

I feel like that would alleviate this issue a tiny bit. Or what someone said earlier about not giving a full murder count for handle bumps and minor infractions. Remember, this isn't MO1 Star Vault, this is the time for experimentation.

Maybe add a new counter that can lead to a MC? oh X amount of minor infractions leads to an MC etc etc.
 

Bernfred

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Sep 12, 2020
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the murdercount system has the benefit to buff new players, solo players, pacifists/PvEs and smaller guilds who rely partly on safe towns and add some good/evil gameplay.
any nerf to the flagging system will exclude people who are not willing to play in a big guild, thats contra the vision of MO2 (niches for everyone).
the game will get very boring after time due to the lack of new players, independet players and small groups. the game dynamic and social interactions will suffer under strict guild politics and a missing dynamic flagging system.



the flagging system that would turn MO2 into a great experience for everyone:

- OPEN FLAGS as mandatory condition
- if a RED or BLUE player attacks/loots another RED or BLUE player (non GREY), he/she turns GREY
- you turn RED for 1 murdercount
- you can get 1 murdercount for DAMAGING or LOOTING a BLUE player after he resurrects on a red/blue faction priest
- you get rid of ANY murdercounts when you dont murder/loot a BLUE player in a real life time span of 24-48 hours
- guards will only attack when you are GREY or RED+low FACTION standing
- you pay a small percentage of tax per murdercount on every good you buy or sell in a blue town
 

ElPerro

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Jun 9, 2020
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Remove murder counts they are useless
Guards should only attack criminals or players with no standing
Make standing truly local (you can only lower standing from the nation u were killed in)
Bring back local grey flag so you can protect yourself as criminal
Let us see grey/local flags again on players

Theres probably alot more to tweak but that would be a good base to start from. Flagging is really a mess atm, if they release like this the game is DOA
 

Kaemik

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Nov 28, 2020
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Remove murder counts they are useless
Guards should only attack criminals or players with no standing
Make standing truly local (you can only lower standing from the nation u were killed in)

I fully agree. In the original Darkfall you could go and kill people from opposing factions while staying blue in your own area. While this mattered little to the general vet player (who was usually red), but it encouraged newb vs newb combat which is healthy for the game. Blue groups from say dwarven lands, could go fight other blues in orclands and still have a safe place to return to.
 

Eldrath

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Jun 18, 2020
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Who would have thought SV would give us a system even worse than what we had in MO1. It's actually impressive.

I did. Which is why I urged them to not have a flagging system at all. Sadly they are immune to good feedback and rather start polishing the turd by putting lictors in the graveyards.

In the end even when SV "fixes" all the issues put forth in this thread it still won´t be a good system.

I´ll repeat my mantra:
Remove flagging
Have guards react to criminal behaviour (stealing, stolen/illegal items, violence in the city limits)
Punish those behaviours appropiatly and harsher than they are punished now
Use the standing system for other purposes such as trading, access to certain locations etc.
 

Grasthard

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Nov 21, 2020
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the system has some other flaws that only become clear in very peculiar situations

for instance:

- someone attacks me and murders me: I can report him at the priest for murder when ressing.

- after ressing, if I find the guy in the wilderness I can attack him without penalties being a criminal (so far so good)

- if he attacks me back after I attacked him, and kills me, I can report him again for muder, even though I initiated the encounter (an issue that in MO1 was solved by the "local-grey" flag). this doesn't feel very fair, as you can literally force MC on people while naked
 

Evelyn

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Jan 6, 2021
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I personally just agree that it doesn't need to be super complicated.
Remove murder counts they are useless
Guards should only attack criminals or players with no standing
Make standing truly local (you can only lower standing from the nation u were killed in)
Bring back local grey flag so you can protect yourself as criminal
Let us see grey/local flags again on players

Theres probably alot more to tweak but that would be a good base to start from. Flagging is really a mess atm, if they release like this the game is DOA
This.

Thisthisthisthis
 
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Zbuciorn

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Murder counts are more danger to good guys than griefers.The whole system is overcomplicated atm.
 

Bernfred

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Sep 12, 2020
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no, removing the red/blue system was my first idea too but its a step backwards, just a boring way to fix and wont work with the faction and priest system.
flagging has advantages for non PKers,solo players and so on... and gives people a reason to fight/defend, it fits good to RPG rules.
player made NPC towns will work without red/blue flags so there is no need to nerf blue towns and kill MO2. blue players will have a higher chance to survive outside with flagging, it gives you the choice like being a trader today or a PvPer.

if people would understand the influence of the dynamic lagging system i posted, they would beg SV to implement. its copes with the vision of the game, eliminates all the concerns people have with the MO1 and current murdercount system and every action can have have risk/reward.
for example red and blue players can live together with the exception that a red is in danger when there are no guards or guild mates around...
 
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Solairerection

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May 28, 2020
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I agree that murdercounts should be removed and instead have it tied to your standing, making it much more local, and instead just keep the criminal/grey flag for when you do immediate crimes.

I thought that the standing system would replace the old flag system, but it seems they have mashed them together. Quite honestly it's just a mess and it needs to be fixed, and I would rather they move on to the standing system than bother with the old system at all.
 
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Rhias

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I agree that murdercounts should be removed and instead have it tied to your standing, making it much more local, and instead just keep the criminal/grey flag for when you do immediate crimes.

I thought that the standing system would replace the old flag system, but it seems they have mashed them together. Quite honestly it's just a mess and it needs to be fixed, and I would rather they move on to the standing system than bother with the old system at all.

Most of it is already like you described it. Your standing determines if you can resurrect at a town and if you are attacked by guards. If you do a bad action you become criminal for a certain time.

However, there is still that old murdercount system, but it currently does not have any affect (probably statloss later on). You can give MC's if you got killed by someone and you did not execute any criminal actions. If you have > 5 MC's (so in MO1 this would be red flagged) you can't give any MCs to others.
 

Solairerection

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However, there is still that old murdercount system, but it currently does not have any affect (probably statloss later on). You can give MC's if you got killed by someone and you did not execute any criminal actions. If you have > 5 MC's (so in MO1 this would be red flagged) you can't give any MCs to others.

I was under the impression that enough murdercounts hindered ressurecting at priests in blue towns. I haven't personally tested it yet but heard it from my guildmates. Maybe it was a bug or they misinterpreted it, either way it's good they are moving away from the old flagging system.