General Guidance for SV and the Balance Team

Teknique

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Can you please pay special attention to the dialogue that occurs between roughly the 42-44 minute mark in the above video.

It appears in a noble yet misguided attempt SV has attempted to take community feedback to "improve" the game. Mind you not all feedback from all players is created equal because the players themselves are not equal.

@Henrik Nyström @Herius
 

Kobalt

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While I understand what you're saying, they can't dismiss the feedback of someone because they're not in the top percentile of the game. Creating combat around a small margin of players feedback is not the way to go. MO1 was a wreck of a game.
 

Teknique

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While I understand what you're saying, they can't dismiss the feedback of someone because they're not in the top percentile of the game. Creating combat around a small margin of players feedback is not the way to go. MO1 was a wreck of a game.
While I also understand what you're saying, especially in an mmorpg which SHOULD have asymmetry.

Entertain for me the hypothetical scenario that in the game above Starcraft 2 they polled all their bronze league players and they said "It just feels so awful when someone just seems to be able to move their units as if they're hands are everywhere at once". Then blizzard actually implemented an action per minute lock and prevented too many inputs at once to artifically close that skill gap. It would be ludicrous to even imagine, yet thats where we are with the patch that will drop monday in MO2.

Out of respect for @Henrik Nyström i'll reprieve judgement until the time appointed, but barring some miracle its going to be absolutely awful. The problem is the players that benefit from this will likely sing praises for it, think mounteds with sledgehammers hitting for 80-100. People actually defended that with a straight face and thought it was solid game play. Hence the need for identifying those with worthless opinions and cutting their feedback out like the malignancy that they are.
 

PoisonArrows

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Can you please pay special attention to the dialogue that occurs between roughly the 42-44 minute mark in the above video.

It appears in a noble yet misguided attempt SV has attempted to take community feedback to "improve" the game. Mind you not all feedback from all players is created equal because the players themselves are not equal.

@Henrik Nyström @Herius
Bro the player's themselves are not created equal. Lol what players mo1 had like what 100 players in it's dying breaths at the end of the life cycle? It was like that for years too. In game design you have to innovate to improve upon your player base. If you actually want mo2 to succeed and to grow then majority of players vote counts... Although in truth there isn't a whole lot of players to get feedback from in first place. So they need to modernize mo2 with better combat an possibly take inspiration from other newer games as other players are suggesting. I suggest they implement some more melee abilities, double strike, triple strike (don't limit it to fist weapons or daggers) Add shield bash, low strike, multi spear thrust, and other abilities. Make knock down, knock back and stagger activate on foot more then 1% of the time. Add some abilities and skills that add some incentive to other combat weapons. Make Daggers Bleed you? Make a Maul knock you over or stagger you if i slam you in the side of your face with it. Give spears multi hit. Or add combo swings/combo stabs. Give me double shot for arrows and take away that ridiculous arrow aimer (seriously what's the point of the aimer if the arrowhead is where you aim... And why does the arrow move so back an forth on horseback) the aiming needs improved. If you breath irl look at your arms are they flopping side to side or up and down? No reason for aiming to be a pain in ass lol. It doesn't take away the hardcore nature of the game to simplify that or make melee combat more modern.
 
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PoisonArrows

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Also In Starcraft the skill gap isn't as huge as you think. Most players don't understand the building strategy is half the strategy. Example Zerg 3, 3, 2. Spam that for units and then you are already ahead of any bronze/silver/gold player who has no idea the best competitive build. Then you just take your Zerglings and run it down to enemy camp kill whatever you can prioritize their infantry if your guys win you siege their builders because you won't have the damage to take out buildings if you rush. But by killing their builders you delay the enemy 5min for their next plan.
 

PoisonArrows

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While I understand what you're saying, they can't dismiss the feedback of someone because they're not in the top percentile of the game. Creating combat around a small margin of players feedback is not the way to go. MO1 was a wreck of a game.
i agree with you 100%. I'm high rank on every game i play. But i wouldn't say low rank players in league of legends don't matter when they are 80% of the player base. I truly believe half of mo1 mistakes were a combination of 3 things. 1.) Pre-haven had a terrible tutorial. 2.) Players like to feel accomplished and rewarded. Mo1 had virtually no Quest aside from the npc in Tindrem telling you to go kill skeletons to make money... Leads me to point 3.) Players need to stay entertained. Tindrem which was likely the starting point of 80% of players had a graveyard and a sewer. That is no way in hell enough to keep players entertained and engaged in a game. Players are told to explore and discover secrets... But as you find other towns you discover they too have just a graveyard?!?! A new player who wants to have fun isn't going to want to walk around for hours or days until they stumble upon a random dungeon or boss to find out their next objective of fun. If you have a fast 535 speed mount this is easy to do. But if you are a new player who doesn't even have a donkey or sprinting/footspeed maxed on a dex elf then this doesn't become fun. Haven made the game better by introducing tutors in town to make skilling easier. And giving us the demon boss. But i believe towns need dungeons and bosses within a reasonably close radius to town and quest with rewards. Improvements need to be made like letting the combat tutor give you your choice of weapon (not just a sword even if you choose spear or axe....)
 

Teknique

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Bro the player's themselves are not created equal. Lol what players mo1 had like what 100 players in it's dying breaths at the end of the life cycle? It was like that for years too. In game design you have to innovate to improve upon your player base. If you actually want mo2 to succeed and to grow then majority of players vote counts... Although in truth there isn't a whole lot of players to get feedback from in first place. So they need to modernize mo2 with better combat an possibly take inspiration from other newer games as other players are suggesting. I suggest they implement some more melee abilities, double strike, triple strike (don't limit it to fist weapons or daggers) Add shield bash, low strike, multi spear thrust, and other abilities. Make knock down, knock back and stagger activate on foot more then 1% of the time. Add some abilities and skills that add some incentive to other combat weapons. Make Daggers Bleed you? Make a Maul knock you over or stagger you if i slam you in the side of your face with it. Give spears multi hit. Or add combo swings/combo stabs. Give me double shot for arrows and take away that ridiculous arrow aimer (seriously what's the point of the aimer if the arrowhead is where you aim... And why does the arrow move so back an forth on horseback) the aiming needs improved. If you breath irl look at your arms are they flopping side to side or up and down? No reason for aiming to be a pain in ass lol. It doesn't take away the hardcore nature of the game to simplify that or make melee combat more modern.
Also In Starcraft the skill gap isn't as huge as you think. Most players don't understand the building strategy is half the strategy. Example Zerg 3, 3, 2. Spam that for units and then you are already ahead of any bronze/silver/gold player who has no idea the best competitive build. Then you just take your Zerglings and run it down to enemy camp kill whatever you can prioritize their infantry if your guys win you siege their builders because you won't have the damage to take out buildings if you rush. But by killing their builders you delay the enemy 5min for their next plan.
i agree with you 100%. I'm high rank on every game i play. But i wouldn't say low rank players in league of legends don't matter when they are 80% of the player base. I truly believe half of mo1 mistakes were a combination of 3 things. 1.) Pre-haven had a terrible tutorial. 2.) Players like to feel accomplished and rewarded. Mo1 had virtually no Quest aside from the npc in Tindrem telling you to go kill skeletons to make money... Leads me to point 3.) Players need to stay entertained. Tindrem which was likely the starting point of 80% of players had a graveyard and a sewer. That is no way in hell enough to keep players entertained and engaged in a game. Players are told to explore and discover secrets... But as you find other towns you discover they too have just a graveyard?!?! A new player who wants to have fun isn't going to want to walk around for hours or days until they stumble upon a random dungeon or boss to find out their next objective of fun. If you have a fast 535 speed mount this is easy to do. But if you are a new player who doesn't even have a donkey or sprinting/footspeed maxed on a dex elf then this doesn't become fun. Haven made the game better by introducing tutors in town to make skilling easier. And giving us the demon boss. But i believe towns need dungeons and bosses within a reasonably close radius to town and quest with rewards. Improvements need to be made like letting the combat tutor give you your choice of weapon (not just a sword even if you choose spear or axe....)
Yes at one point MO had very few players, Which is why there really isn't a competitive scene. I want them to make a game that doesn't shoo away competitive players. I can't see how the majority of players count if their feedback is I want to win without being as good. The problem is that this is a persistent mmorpg with full loot so there will be asymmetry, how can you really please those players other than offering them safety or making a system where skill doesn't matter?

MO should stick to doing what it does well. Offering a skill based first person full loot mmorpg, the only other alternatives are removing the skill based portion or making it just like any other game.

You're right but it becomes hard to just copy a pros build order in sc2 after what the 5 minute mark? Also you can't copy micro.

and yeah you answered your own point with haven.

Also there's an argument to make that the lack of player base was due to catering to incorrect feedback, likely from these lower tier players. I don't wanna front like i'm that good when i'm not, but when I see these dudes play I think people proning with thompsons in day of defeat verse an actual rifler who could compete in CS.

I see a lot of parallels to day of defeat actually, a fundamentally skill based game with terrible mechanics added in to mute that skill base almost entirely. MO 2 I see it as now ahh the problem was the skill based portion of DoD lets just have ONLY proning thompsons mg's and rockets fixed!!!

What a lot of you here don't know a lot about day of defeat? I wonder why that is.
 
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PoisonArrows

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Yes at one point MO had very few players, Which is why there really isn't a competitive scene. I want them to make a game that doesn't shoo away competitive players. I can't see how the majority of players count if their feedback is I want to win without being as good. The problem is that this is a persistent mmorpg with full loot so there will be asymmetry, how can you really please those players other than offering them safety or making a system where skill doesn't matter?

MO should stick to doing what it does well. Offering a skill based first person full loot mmorpg, the only other alternatives are removing the skill based portion or making it just like any other game.

You're right but it becomes hard to just copy a pros build order in sc2 after what the 5 minute mark? Also you can't copy micro.

and yeah you answered your own point with haven.

Also there's an argument to make that the lack of player base was due to catering to incorrect feedback, likely from these lower tier players. I don't wanna front like i'm that good when i'm not, but when I see these dudes play I think people proning with thompsons in day of defeat verse an actual rifler who could compete in CS.

I see a lot of parallels to day of defeat actually, a fundamentally skill based game with terrible mechanics added in to mute that skill base almost entirely. MO 2 I see it as now ahh the problem was the skill based portion of DoD lets just have ONLY proning thompsons mg's and rockets fixed!!!

What a lot of you here don't know a lot about day of defeat? I wonder why that is.
Mortal was always a strange game to me in terms of competition. For example your entire competition can be broken into 2 categories skill and wealth. If you have a ton of players to practice with you can have 1 guy duel you to near death and another heal you to full and repeat until you are all gods at dueling. And if you have a ton of wealth you can buy better armor and weapons, mounts, the new spells and stuff. But when i played Mortal i was a solo player my entire playthrough. So it was harder for me to get gold to afford items to be competitive. The 1st time i encountered a Parry god player i was like damn. I hit him 1 time for every 5 hits i take. Same deal with my parries vs his. I also used spears which you can't hit a good player with those. I legit switched to magic and minotaurs to do my fighting after that and never looked back. I'm hoping the new game introduces melee attacks and combo swings. Parry camping and run hit... Run hit. Shouldn't be the only foot fighter play style.
 

PoisonArrows

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Yes at one point MO had very few players, Which is why there really isn't a competitive scene. I want them to make a game that doesn't shoo away competitive players. I can't see how the majority of players count if their feedback is I want to win without being as good. The problem is that this is a persistent mmorpg with full loot so there will be asymmetry, how can you really please those players other than offering them safety or making a system where skill doesn't matter?

MO should stick to doing what it does well. Offering a skill based first person full loot mmorpg, the only other alternatives are removing the skill based portion or making it just like any other game.

You're right but it becomes hard to just copy a pros build order in sc2 after what the 5 minute mark? Also you can't copy micro.

and yeah you answered your own point with haven.

Also there's an argument to make that the lack of player base was due to catering to incorrect feedback, likely from these lower tier players. I don't wanna front like i'm that good when i'm not, but when I see these dudes play I think people proning with thompsons in day of defeat verse an actual rifler who could compete in CS.

I see a lot of parallels to day of defeat actually, a fundamentally skill based game with terrible mechanics added in to mute that skill base almost entirely. MO 2 I see it as now ahh the problem was the skill based portion of DoD lets just have ONLY proning thompsons mg's and rockets fixed!!!

What a lot of you here don't know a lot about day of defeat? I wonder why that is.
I agree with what you said about the players of this game lol. I've made quite a bit of post under suggestions section of the game. But half the complete 10 kids total player base keeps disagreeing with me lol. It's like they just want a reboot of Mo1 with zero improvements. I seriously think Archery needs to get rid of that clunky aiming on Ma. You can still have skillful gameplay aiming a normal cursor without the cursor moving constantly. The cursor being a arrow for some reason instead of a cursor. And i think having melee abilities would make the game super fun. Ones like multi hits, and stagger/knockbacks/knockdowns for heavier weapons. Long reach weapons having like low sweep and low hit to high hit combos. A huge gameplay improvement would be if they removed the stun duration where you can't attack or block after attacking and your opponent parries. It makes sense to have to wait a half second to block. But i think i should be able to go for another attack or 3 if i want before my character is out of actions. I like to play aggressive and strike my enemy down. But it feels weird being stopped by a parry and then just getting slapped around by a counter attack or stamming out by myself running away from said counter attack. Only to strike an get myself parried again. If i could swing my weapon more then once that would feel better gameplay. Let them parry and counter attack and block. Just remove the stun from parry so that polesword fighting from edge of range isn't the only way to deal with these parry scrubs.
 

Teknique

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I agree with what you said about the players of this game lol. I've made quite a bit of post under suggestions section of the game. But half the complete 10 kids total player base keeps disagreeing with me lol. It's like they just want a reboot of Mo1 with zero improvements. I seriously think Archery needs to get rid of that clunky aiming on Ma. You can still have skillful gameplay aiming a normal cursor without the cursor moving constantly. The cursor being a arrow for some reason instead of a cursor. And i think having melee abilities would make the game super fun. Ones like multi hits, and stagger/knockbacks/knockdowns for heavier weapons. Long reach weapons having like low sweep and low hit to high hit combos. A huge gameplay improvement would be if they removed the stun duration where you can't attack or block after attacking and your opponent parries. It makes sense to have to wait a half second to block. But i think i should be able to go for another attack or 3 if i want before my character is out of actions. I like to play aggressive and strike my enemy down. But it feels weird being stopped by a parry and then just getting slapped around by a counter attack or stamming out by myself running away from said counter attack. Only to strike an get myself parried again. If i could swing my weapon more then once that would feel better gameplay. Let them parry and counter attack and block. Just remove the stun from parry so that polesword fighting from edge of range isn't the only way to deal with these parry scrubs.
Hmm I actually feel pretty opposite.

I didn't have a problem with the bows not using the aiming reticule.


I also was never a parry player either, but now that in MO 2 its significantly easier I feel its quite well balanced where if you were primarily an aggressive player in mo1, you now have the ability to add parry whoring to your skill set.

The changes they are making are more in line with what you're suggesting, but I don't like the change in direction because if you truly are aggressively talented you can do some fancy sword play while also being strong defensively, soon that won't be true.
 
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Livingshade

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No matter what change you get implemented you won't be happy when you're still getting clapped.
WHAT are you MUMBLING about mate?! if so many people tell you one thing and should change then it should change otherwise they LEAVE and less people play
 

Rorry

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I agree with what you said about the players of this game lol. I've made quite a bit of post under suggestions section of the game. But half the complete 10 kids total player base keeps disagreeing with me lol. It's like they just want a reboot of Mo1 with zero improvements. I seriously think Archery needs to get rid of that clunky aiming on Ma. You can still have skillful gameplay aiming a normal cursor without the cursor moving constantly. The cursor being a arrow for some reason instead of a cursor. And i think having melee abilities would make the game super fun. Ones like multi hits, and stagger/knockbacks/knockdowns for heavier weapons. Long reach weapons having like low sweep and low hit to high hit combos. A huge gameplay improvement would be if they removed the stun duration where you can't attack or block after attacking and your opponent parries. It makes sense to have to wait a half second to block. But i think i should be able to go for another attack or 3 if i want before my character is out of actions. I like to play aggressive and strike my enemy down. But it feels weird being stopped by a parry and then just getting slapped around by a counter attack or stamming out by myself running away from said counter attack. Only to strike an get myself parried again. If i could swing my weapon more then once that would feel better gameplay. Let them parry and counter attack and block. Just remove the stun from parry so that polesword fighting from edge of range isn't the only way to deal with these parry scrubs.
MO2 should be a smoother playing MO1. All of the changes you suggest would make it like games that already exist.
All the stun/stagger/bleed shit, and special swings/attacks/combos that some games have are replacements for skill based play and MO should avoid them. MO1 shouldn't have had them either, they always tended to unbalance pvp.
MO should struggle to retain it's one-of-a-kind nature. They can do so, and keep a good population, by learning from the results of decisions and actions of theirs in MO1.
Since you were a solo player, you never really got to experience what made MO1 so special, and what SV needs to fight to retain for MO2.
 
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Rorry

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While I understand what you're saying, they can't dismiss the feedback of someone because they're not in the top percentile of the game. Creating combat around a small margin of players feedback is not the way to go. MO1 was a wreck of a game.
Feedback needs to be judged on it's own merit, true.
The problems MO1 had that originated from listening to feedback were not usually from listening to top players though, but were from listening to those who wanted to succeed with little effort. People who wanted the game to be easier, and safer. People who wanted some overpowered tool that they could use instead of having to develop skill through practice, or wanted safe areas instead of having to develop good ways to achieve their goals through clear thinking.
 

Teknique

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Feedback needs to be judged on it's own merit, true.
The problems MO1 had that originated from listening to feedback were not usually from listening to top players though, but were from listening to those who wanted to succeed with little effort. People who wanted the game to be easier, and safer. People who wanted some overpowered tool that they could use instead of having to develop skill through practice, or wanted safe areas instead of having to develop good ways to achieve their goals through clear thinking.
Sadly it seems that the community (good pvpers included) wants a turn cap. Something I can scarcely believe. This will almost certainly destroy my ability to sticky players, idk what other method people that do sticky backs use, but i'm looking forward to seeing footage of it. At least I can wash my hands of any responsibility for it.
 

Rorry

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Sadly it seems that the community (good pvpers included) wants a turn cap. Something I can scarcely believe. This will almost certainly destroy my ability to sticky players, idk what other method people that do sticky backs use, but i'm looking forward to seeing footage of it. At least I can wash my hands of any responsibility for it.
They don't realize that turning is a reaction to a problem rather than the problem. The main problem is that parries are over powered.
 

Livingshade

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Sadly it seems that the community (good pvpers included) wants a turn cap. Something I can scarcely believe. This will almost certainly destroy my ability to sticky players, idk what other method people that do sticky backs use, but i'm looking forward to seeing footage of it. At least I can wash my hands of any responsibility for it.
XD sticky back online, and i guess you want to BUFF flanged maces again too? XDD