Daily Reminder, Khurites Are Entirely Useless

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cerqo

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To quote my recent race guide:

"Khurites are the fastest race of humans while also having good strength and constitution. That being said, Kallards are better in every physical stat except speed. On top of this, they have an abysmally low attribute total. Given the only minor differences in speed currently present, it is my personal opinion Khurites are bad at literally everything, and should never be played for any purpose but flavor. Some will argue this point with me, but I feel those people have an antiquated view of how good movement speed is, that doesn’t hold up to the realities of Mortal Online 2 where it was nerfed compared to the previous title."

To back this up I'm issuing a challenge. Submit Khurite builds here. Could be full Khurite, could be 1/4 Khurite. Any level of Khurite in your build is bad. I will make a build that does the same general thing but better, by removing Khurite. Because ANYTHING a Khurite is good at, another race can do, but in an objectively better fashion if you aren't WAY overvaluing a tiny bit of extra movement speed.

I intend to keep this topic running until everyone realizes how objectively trash this race is, and SV gives them the buff they deserve.
Yikes LMAO, yeah boys buff khurites im all for that
 

Kaemik

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This thread very much reminds me of how in Wurm Online the conventional wisdom for years was that if you play a priest, you raise soul depth to increase channeling success. For like 10+ years all these priests went out leveling farming, and hot food cooking, and all the skills that gave soul depth to get better channeling.

When they released private servers (Wurm Unlimited) people actually got to datamine the game and test how effective this was. The code revealed... soul depth did nothing. They actually added new functions to it because everyone who had raised it was so pissed.

Movespeed isn't useless per say, but it takes so damn long for a 2% bonus to actually compound into some kind of useful lead it's definitely not worth trashing the rest of your character for. Even the edge Alvarins have is largely driven by an entire clade worth of tools to help compound that lead with creative use of terrain. But eh. If you guys what to stay Khurite, stay Khurite.
 
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Bicorps

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They're trash in that they are not the best at literally any role. Like you mentioned smaller size making them better at mounted builds. Better than Ohgmir? Ohgmir are smaller/lighter and have the highest strength and int cap in the game making them better at mounted warrior, archer, and mage.

Like I said, show me any build with Khurite in it, and I'll make it better by making it something else.
I recommend you to wait a bit to see more teamfights. Divers are very important in teamfight. Just 1 diver in the back lane of the enemy can aggro up to 3-6 guys waisting stam/mana if you survive. Literally just 1 diver can change a whole fight without killing anybody just by disturbing the enemy coms/mage/peeler.

But they probably suck and I trust you on your statement. they should buff speed a bit more so they can be actually good at there job. But a lot of people forget about size. Yes being tall do more damage but you are also an easier target, there is Pro and Cons on size and if they add it on mounted they might be the best MC/FF choice in the future.
 

Sneeze

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This thread very much reminds me of how in Wurm Online the conventional wisdom for years was that if you play a priest, you raise soul depth to increase channeling success. For like 10+ years all these priests went out leveling farming, and hot food cooking, and all the skills that gave soul depth to get better channeling.

When they released private servers (Wurm Unlimited) people actually got to datamine the game and test how effective this was. The code revealed... soul depth did nothing. They actually added new functions to it because everyone who had raised it was so pissed.

Movespeed isn't useless per say, but it takes so damn long for a 2% bonus to actually compound into some kind of useful lead it's definitely not worth trashing the rest of your character for. Even the edge Alvarins have is largely driven by an entire clade worth of tools to help compound that lead with creative use of terrain. But eh. If you guys what to stay Khurite, stay Khurite.
you are actually wrong on this lol. when they datamined and saw that soul depth didnt matter for channeling. that was only in situations where the channeling bonus was at cap already (casting spells inside their deed at an altar. so it made no difference in pve) however it did actually add to channelling bonus and thus increase casts when there isnt the altar bonus to easily hit 70(out and about pvping). every skill roll benefited from the skills and characteristics that were above them. faithbonus was just increased by altars on deed so for pve it meant nothing cuz you reached the cap easily but in pvp the only bonus to faith bonus you were getting was faith over 90 + terrain + religion skill check(affected by soul depth).

this is completely different anyway from MO where speed isnt some bonus that may or may not be applying but something you can literally feel in combat. which even if the speed doesnt make a big enough difference to stop a sticky it does make a difference over distances. and the useful lead you are talking about is the difference in distance between people where one can hit the other. with higher or equal stamina(or just a difference in management) that difference in speed will lead to a clear advantage when kiting or running from someone over distances. that "small useful difference" is the difference between when someone is on you just barely in range to hit you. whether they continue to be able to hit you or whether you continue to be able to hit them. in MO1 this was a clearly noticeable thing. you could sticky a veela on a thursar. but they gained on you over distances and only your higher stamina pool made it possible to stay close. with human builds or special thursar builds later it actually translated to a large advantage in kiting. i didnt subscribe to the speed is king mentality in MO1 and was fully under the opinion that the stamina/speed/damage ratio was what was important. high damage and high stam with lower speed means less stam and time is needed to kill the faster person while you are on them before you lose it. khurites had a health middleground on all 3 which made them good. this seems to be the case in mo2 as well. and like i said previously even if they are not hte outright best they are very definitely viable and that is completely fine.
 

Kaemik

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I recommend you to wait a bit to see more teamfights. Divers are very important in teamfight. Just 1 diver in the back lane of the enemy can aggro up to 3-6 guys waisting stam/mana if you survive. Literally just 1 diver can change a whole fight without killing anybody just by disturbing the enemy coms/mage/peeler.
Not disagreeing divers are important, Just disagree 2% more speed is a qualification for the role. 90% of my playtime in this game post races has been on Alvarin with either full stam or mage armor and while the difference in speed is noticeable and useful you're talking a 4-6% speed advantage over a Full Khal + Terrain Bonuses. And you can STILL have to play very carefully to keep ahead of your opponents.

I'd personally never play Khurite the way it's currently statted out. The lowest attribute points of any human suggest it is the best human clade in terms of maxes. I firmly believe that status belongs to Kallards making Khurites distinctly underpowered because of it. Beyond the fact it has a low attribute total compared to ALL races of ALL clades. It's barely above an Ohgmir or Thur/Khal and significantly behind Alvarin or Thur/Tind. But if people are actually happy with it and willing to play it, keep it as is I guess. I'm still going to continue to advise people against it.
 
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Godkin Veratas

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@Kaemik There’s likely a reason you’re not picking Oghmir, even though they will be MA champs. Why? Might be useful to get all the context.

Within the human clade, there are various mages, hybrids and Kallards. Khurites may be the best human MA. That’s still an open question as Kallards might take that spot too if mounts fail to deliver.

Also, you’re correct that the attribute point bonuses/punishments are a legacy of when dexterity mattered more. It makes little sense now.
 

Kaemik

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@Kaemik There’s likely a reason you’re not picking Oghmir, even though they will be MA champs. Why? Might be useful to get all the context.
Because mounts didn't exist. As for why I currently am still playing Alvarin... experimentation. I may very well roll Ohgmir next patch. I wanted to see if there is a notable difference in speed between my fiance's stout Thur-Tind and my skinny Veela while mounted. Veelas are also a great choice for some very specific mounted builds though. Primarily ones that want to be able to continue kiting if their mount dies. And skinny Alvarin are SUPER lightweight. Lighter than fit Ohgs, and taking an Ohg below fit makes no sense to me.
 

Xronim

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I really dont see what can really be done to Khurites in general at this point, their caps seem good on paper for foot fighting but the speed difference isn't high enough to matter when its like 426 stout vs 422 stout on the average non khur human.
They still have the 2nd highest str and con but the small size does cause problems min maxing for damage and slightly reduces hp. the lower attribute points dont pay off well if youre considering maybe respeccing for hybrid later on on that char.
It seems potentially intentional that they havent gotten more attribute points because SV is afraid about their stats shoring up things like the lower con that non kall humans have yet Kallards have even more con because they got buffed for mo2 while having more total attributes.
 
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Godkin Veratas

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Because mounts didn't exist. As for why I currently am still playing Alvarin... experimentation. I may very well roll Ohgmir next patch. I wanted to see if there is a notable difference in speed between my fiance's stout Thur-Tind and my skinny Veela while mounted. Veelas are also a great choice for some very specific mounted builds though. Primarily ones that want to be able to continue kiting if their mount dies. And skinny Alvarin are SUPER lightweight. Lighter than fit Ohgs, and taking an Ohg below fit makes no sense to me.
If there is a mount advantage to a Skinny Oghmir versus a Fit Oghmir, I’ll be very happy with the implementation. Most of what’s discussed here will change. As you say, remains to be seen.
 

Kaemik

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This would help A LOT of races in general. A large theme of the ideas within is making races good at things they're currently bad at but that it makes sense for them to be good at given their racial theme and/or the lore.

I don't really care what they do with mounts. Ohgmir, Thursar, or both are shaping up to look like better races than a Khurite on a mount unless they specifically make height good and weight bad... so that min size Kallards are better instead. My suggestion of making races have weight modifiers beyond height and fatness (For instance ohgmir weigh more per height) would also help.

The other thing I would do with Khurites is match their total attributes to either Kallards or even Sidoians.
 
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Godkin Veratas

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This would help A LOT of races in general. A large theme of the ideas within is making races good at things they're currently bad at but that it makes sense for them to be good at given their racial theme and/or the lore.

I don't really care what they do with mounts. Ohgmir, Thursar, or both are shaping up to look like better races than a Khurite on a mount unless they specifically make height good and weight bad... so that min size Kallards are better instead.

The other thing I would do with Khurites is match their total attributes to either Kallards or even Sidoians.
Race bonuses is what we were originally promised, clade gifts is what we got. It’s an overall underwhelming system that doesn’t address imbalances in attribute distribution as you point out.
Sids and Sards also need refinement, it’s just not a good system that is getting worse. Thursar are just as lopsided.
Yes racial bonuses could and should have addressed it. If mounts are even near adequately designed, I may put more thought into it. We’ll see.
 

Xronim

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the entire balance is a joke anyways now and should be looked at properly with player feedback before the game goes into persistence.
 

ChonoKhan

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I cba posting my stats, but I quite like how the Khurite is right now... it's not AS strong as a Thursar, and not as fast as a Veela. It's also much weaker as an MA than an Oghmir.

However, a full Khurite is an excellent balance between all, allowing it to shift combat roles at will... you can be a medium warrior, a hybrid, a mage, a mounted combat/archer/mage or just a simple crafter/gatherer... it fits my purposes well. I'd rather it didn't get "buffed" because then it will just become the new META (if it isn't already).

Just as the Spear is the King of Weapons... the Khurite is the King of Races... requiring skill, patience and learning to excel in.
 

Kaemik

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a hybrid, a mage
No. Absolutely not. People can sit there and tell me being 1.7% faster than a Kallard is worth losing out on every single other physical stat, and I think that's insane. But if you're going to sit there and tell me they're viable as a hybrid, you're off your rocker.

High attribute total is one of THEE most important things to have on a hybrid because all stats are good for hybrids. Khurites have one of the lowest of all races, in a clade notable for great attribute totals. They're sitting just above Ohgmir, and the low attribute total on Ohgmir is the primary reason they make terrible hybrids despite being both good melee and mages. They are among Ohgmir and Thursars as the worst hybrid builds in the game. The only thing that can somewhat salvage them from this status is mixing in human races that aren't terrible hybrids. But for every quarter Khurite you are, the worse of a hybrid you are.

As far as mage, they could potentially make a decent dex mage. But when the devs make int more useful 50-100 (as they have stated they will) you can kiss that status goodbye as well as they barely have the attribute points to pull off a dex mage even now and their int cap is trash. Sheevra are significantly better in every aspect except total health once you remove the assumption int is a dump stat past 50.

So they can be meh foot-fighter, fairly trash MA, fairly trash MC, complete garbage hybrid, and viable dex mage until int gets patched and they likely become garbage at that too. Honestly, it feels like many of the people in this topic have forgotten attribute total as a variable between races exists. Just a reminder it does exist, and for a lot of builds, it's a really important factor. Even pure foot-fighters suffer from a lack of it if they want to not die to mages in 2 hits. And it's absolute trash for Khurites.

You want adaptable builds?

Huergar: Amazing tank FF, best light MA hands down and even good compared to heavy MAs, top tier fat mage, best light mounted melee. Literally good at everything but hybrid if you don't mind being slow but very tanky on foot.

Veela: Good fast melee, great fast archer, good dex mage, good hybrid, merits as light MA, merits as light mounted mage, probably a questionable choice on light mounted melee and light mounted hybrid but still better at both those builds than Khurites are as hybrids.

(All cav builds are assuming meaningful drawbacks to being a heavy rider get implemented, but if that doesn't happen then Khurites will be slightly worse off than they are if they do.)
 
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ChonoKhan

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No. Absolutely not. People can sit there and tell me being 1.7% faster than a Kallard is worth losing out on every single other physical stat, and I think that's insane. But if you're going to sit there and tell me they're viable as a hybrid, you're off your rocker.

High attribute total is one of THEE most important things to have on a hybrid because all stats are good for hybrids. Khurites have one of the lowest of all races, in a clade notable for great attribute totals. They're sitting just above Ohgmir, and the low attribute total on Ohgmir is the primary reason they make terrible hybrids despite being both good melee and mages. They are among Ohgmir and Thursars as the worst hybrid builds in the game. The only thing that can somewhat salvage them from this status is mixing in human races that aren't terrible hybrids. But for every quarter Khurite you are, the worse of a hybrid you are.

As far as mage, they could potentially make a decent dex mage. But when the devs make int more useful 50-100 (as they have stated they will) you can kiss that status goodbye as well as they barely have the attribute points to pull off a dex mage even now and their int cap is trash. Sheevra are significantly better in every aspect except total health once you remove the assumption int is a dump stat past 50.

So they can be meh foot-fighter, fairly trash MA, fairly trash MC, complete garbage hybrid, and viable dex mage until int gets patched and they likely become garbage at that too. Honestly, it feels like many of the people in this topic have forgotten attribute total as a variable between races exists. Just a reminder it does exist, and for a lot of builds, it's a really important factor. Even pure foot-fighters suffer from a lack of it if they want to not die to mages in 2 hits. And it's absolute trash for Khurites.

You want adaptable builds?

Huergar: Amazing tank FF, best light MA hands down and even good compared to heavy MAs, top tier fat mage, best light mounted melee. Literally good at everything but hybrid if you don't mind being slow but very tanky on foot.

Veela: Good fast melee, great fast archer, good dex mage, good hybrid, merits as light MA, merits as light mounted mage, probably a questionable choice on light mounted melee and light mounted hybrid but still better at both those builds than Khurites are as hybrids.

(All cav builds are assuming meaningful drawbacks to being a heavy rider get implemented, but if that doesn't happen then Khurites will be slightly worse off than they are if they do.)

Kk, well... I believe differently... so... byyyyyyye! :)
 

Kaemik

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Think what you want. Khurite hybrids are objectively trash. Have fun deciding where to take 19 points from your essential hybrid stats. Not to mention 10 Psyche being complete garbage for a hybrid.
 
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Bicorps

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Its not very the right place to ask this but.... you guys know the Bump Damage INT wise? like 65-80-115-120 ? anyone know ?
 
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